Testing out CxxC vs Metros for Space Race ability

[AznWarlord]

Technically, since you're playing the same map again, there is some sort of Advantage that comes with the second game, like having a general idea of the map, where the AI's are located, goody hut. Still I can't wait to see the results.

 

[Pyrrhos]

ZzarkLinux!

That is definitely not CXXC! It's more like CXXXC. Just look at the distance between towns! The outer towns are actually spaced CXXXXC (!!!) in relation to each other even if they have a CXXC relationship with the central town. Furthermore, you need culture for that pattern or the outer towns wont have access to that many squares.

Still, I like the pattern and it's not covered by the War Academy article on city spacing. Why not write an article about it?

 

[TheOverseer714]

Technically, since you're playing the same map again, there is some sort of Advantage that comes with the second game, like having a general idea of the map, where the AI's are located, goody hut. Still I can't wait to see the results.

I agree, that is why I think the CxxC game should go first, so no one can say it had any advantage. I know it won't convince the metro fans, but it might be meat for a strategy guide in the updated war academy.

 

[timerover51]

Othniel, included is the thread to the test maps. There are two continents, and I have set a starting position on each of them for Portugal, you can look them over and see which one you would prefer. Each continent has at least 4 luxuries, and all of the needed resources. Horses and iron are near each starting location. The Golden Age timer is set to Zero. I can reset that if you wish. All Wonders may be built without worrying about triggering a Golden Age. Neither of the Portuguese starting locations is on the coast. In fact, no starting positions are on the coast. I have not set any of the AI civs, will do that later tonight, but I figured that you needed the maps to look over, and decide on your starting site. You will have 7 AI opponents, and I will set them the same on both games. The continents are irregularly shaped, and I do not think that will favor one spacing over the other.

Optional, you might want to review the maps as well. I like them personally.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9720

If needed, I will email you the zip file if you cannot access them quickly.

 

[Aabraxan]

Technically, since you're playing the same map again, there is some sort of Advantage that comes with the second game, like having a general idea of the map, where the AI's are located, goody hut. Still I can't wait to see the results.

I agree, that is why I think the CxxC game should go first, so no one can say it had any advantage. I know it won't convince the metro fans, but it might be meat for a strategy guide in the updated war academy.

I believe Othniel is either planning to play a non-test game first, or look the map over, so that he has foreknowledge of the map for the first game, too. It's not a perfect solution, but it reduces that factor.

Is that right, Othniel?

 

[timerover51]

I have the maps set for "revealed" to avoid the possible bias on the second game.

 

[Aabraxan]

Cool. Thanks for the clarification, timerover51.

 

[Othniel]

Othniel, included is the thread to the test maps...

Thanks a much. I will look them over tonight.

 

[Optional]

Playing with revealed map means Othniel sees the whole map in game from the start, but he doesn't see the AI. It doesn't remove the fog of war. He still needs to discover where the AI is, where they have settled, he can get attacked with speedy units popping up from the fog of war etc. I don't think it'll play too differently from normal.
Othniel, you were planning on playing a test game with CxxxxC anyway. why not make this a game with a revealed map? Then you'll be comfy with once you start for real.

Timerover's maps: It's actually one map isn't it? Just uploaded twice, with the second time a different start location ticked? Sorry if I've overlooked more differences.
It seems a natural looking map. The start on map A could be a bit tough, as the nearest neighbour has Ivory. The Statue of Zeus is a powerful wonder, I would always put the Ivory on the other continent. What could happen is that the Statue of Zeus guy attacks Othniel in one game, but targets another neighbour in the other, making a big difference to Othniel's game.

Both starts are a bit close to the coast, limiting your options for city placement.
I do like the maps for their natural feel.

Now I'm gonna make you unhappy, Timerover: I'll pop a map in as well. I think we need to have a choice. I'm by no means disapproving of Timerover's map. I made mine days ago, it's also a random generated one, and when it comes to it, really not that different. Slighty more flexible in settlement options around the capitol, I would say.

None of both maps are ready. Timerover's map still has things like Respawn AI and Culturally linked in it, Portugal's traits are still there, both our maps haven't got other civs determined and there might be more stuff.
That's no problem for now; we will come to that.

We might even want to do a bit more random map generating. This is a start.

 

[Othniel]

I've looked at timerover's map as well.

I generally like it. Like Optional said, it has a natural feel. However, I felt it was a little, uhh, too natural for what I wanted. There was quite a lot of jungle, marsh, and desert on the bigger continent. Even though my goal is an "average" map, I want the terrain to be quite good, a bit better than normal even. I don't want to be battling tons of harsh terrain especially with my trait-less Portugese.

Also, I would definitely want to start on the bigger continent; playing on the small continent would give me a core that looked like a line rather than a circle. I don't think that's the best way to test the styles.

So, I modded timerover's map a bit. This was my first time ever modding in Civ3, so it was an enlightening experience. I kinda felt...powerful.

I did the following:

• Changed a large portion of the marsh, jungle, and desert tiles into plains and grass
• Added a couple of rivers and a couple of lakes, but none were close to my preferred start area
• Moved the cows near my preferred start into my capital's fat x
• Added a food bonus to a few of the AI starting locations
• Added a few extra grass tiles to the smaller continent to make it bigger

I did not add any additional resources, luxes, or food bonuses beside the ones mentioned.

My preferred start location is in the northeast corner of the bigger continent. It has 4-turn settler factory potential. I think a 4-turner would be nice, but if someone objects...

I think the map now looks like a above average, "average" map. I've increased the food potential of the map by adding in some grass and plains, but I don't think I overpowered the map at all. I also compensated for a better start by giving the AI civs all better starts too.

Beyond the map, I modded a few other things

• Changed the GA back to 20 years
• Removed all civ traits from Portugal
• Enabled all Victory Conditions
• Unchecked Reveal Map

I don't like the reveal map option. It would just totally throw off my concentration, I think, even if the fog would obscure spoiler info. I've gotten pretty familiar with the map by tinkering with it already, and I'd just rather study it a bit more rather than turn on Reveal All.

I don't think I can get a GA with the mods I did, but I'd be nice to have someone verify that. I didn't tinker with any other settings.

I will be sure to look at your map also, Optional. I'd appreciate people looking at my modifications to timerover's map and give feedback. Especially let me know if I overpowered it too much.

 

[timerover51]

Othniel, I sort of thought that you would like the northeast corner of the big continent. As for modding the map, that is why I posted them for your review. Personally, I see no reason to knock out Portugal's traits, as players are not going to that, but that is up to you. I forgot your listing of game preferences, and since I was doing the map on my Windows game box editor, which I do not hook up to the Internet, I figured that I would simply let you do the settings. I set it for Space Race only, simply to avoid problems with the AI messing up the test. I will concede the problem with the Statute of Zeus, but figured that if you were on the other continent, an early acquisition of that by the AI would not be a problem. If you started on the smaller continent, I would have no problem making sure that you had Ivory as well. However, you will get horses almost immediately, so I thought that would balance out.

I did a fair amount of map generating, but the problem was getting two continents close in size. The map that I submitted was the closest one that I came up with to equal size land masses, and that included tying a couple of islands to the smaller of the two. I did come up with some nice maps, that I saved for my own uses.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

ZzarkLinux!

That is definitely not CXXC! It's more like CXXXC. Just look at the distance between towns! The outer towns are actually spaced CXXXXC (!!!) in relation to each other even if they have a CXXC relationship with the central town. Furthermore, you need culture for that pattern or the outer towns wont have access to that many squares.

Still, I like the pattern and it's not covered by the War Academy article on city spacing. Why not write an article about it?

That is what most people who use CxxC spacing use. You pretty much need culture for the outer towns on any spacing for them to use all their tiles.

 

[eldar]

That is what most people who use CxxC spacing use. You pretty much need culture for the outer towns on any spacing for them to use all their tiles.

Not quite true... if the outer towns are on the coast (highly likely) then generally culture won't be needed to pull in tiles. Though low-to-medium corrupt coastal cities tend to end up as fishing villages and will build their libs/harbors making use of the 2fXs tiles that land-bound cities will gradually take over as they grow.

Where culture is needed is usually on borders where you're competing for tiles with the AI. Even then I tend not to care too much because I can employ "other means" of procuring the use of those tiles. (The amount of gold required to rush a temple = the amount of gold required to rush 2 Horses/Swords.)

 

[TimBentley]

Probably people should stop saying CXXC and the like, using ICS, 12C/C (12 citizens per city), and OCP instead, so nobody assumes the strict patterns nobody uses. I've never been sure what sort of setup CXXXC means.

 

[Pyrrhos]

That is what most people who use CxxC spacing use. You pretty much need culture for the outer towns on any spacing for them to use all their tiles.

Then they are not using CXXC, not even tight spacing.

 

[eldar]

Then they are not using CXXC, not even tight spacing.

Then please tell us what you think CxxC/Tight Spacing means so we can construct a test that means something to you.

You clearly have a different definition to the rest of us.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, that's where a lot of the issues are coming from - I don't know a lot of people who think that STRICT CxxC, where cities can't all get 12 tiles, is the most efficient way to go.

Ironically, I'm playing a demigod 20K game right now where I got squeezed in by the AI and have adopted a very structure that is at LEAST that tight and is close to ICS in some cases... I made the modern age by 1200 AD or so.

 

[Othniel]

I did come up with some nice maps, that I saved for my own uses.

Why you holding out on me like that?

Othniel, I sort of thought that you would like the northeast corner of the big continent. As for modding the map, that is why I posted them for your review. Personally, I see no reason to knock out Portugal's traits, as players are not going to that, but that is up to you. I forgot your listing of game preferences, and since I was doing the map on my Windows game box editor, which I do not hook up to the Internet, I figured that I would simply let you do the settings. I set it for Space Race only, simply to avoid problems with the AI messing up the test.

Yep, thanks again for the map and for letting me tweak it a bit. If I start in that northwest corner, the map looks like it could work well. Did you get a chance to review my mods and see if I overpowered it too much?

Good point on only having the Space VC enabled. Still, I doubt that I will be in danger of losing and I'd like to face the challenge, no matter how remote, of the AI dropping a culture or UN victory on me.

Now I'm gonna make you unhappy, Timerover: I'll pop a map in as well. I think we need to have a choice. I'm by no means disapproving of Timerover's map. I made mine days ago, it's also a random generated one, and when it comes to it, really not that different. Slighty more flexible in settlement options around the capitol, I would say.

I looked at your map too, Optional. It could also easily work. I like the southwest corner spot that you designated for me to start at. I would probably move it inland a few tiles though.

The less favorable things about your map were:

• No aluminum on starting continent, that would need to be modded
• Quite a number of smaller islands
• A fair amount of jungle and marsh for the northern two AI civs on my continent. I think that should be changed slightly to give them better starts and me more of a challenge

Basically, after reviewing both maps, I think both are viable. Probably timerover's map with my edits is the most game-ready. timerover's map also has a bit more land area on the my starting continent--just pointing this out for completeness sake.

If people can post any thoughts on the maps sometime today, that would be wonderful. I'd like to select a map tonight and then open it up for public dotmapping of city locations.

 

[eldar]

Okay I think for the sake of avoiding any future argument, the following thread should be used to define different spacing styles:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/city_placement.php

 

[Optional]

If people can post any thoughts on the maps sometime today, that would be wonderful.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that as well. I've had a fair deal of input already and I'm actually seeing myself as a backseat guy in the city spacing discussion.
Timerover's second map is excellent. I have some reservation about rigorous editing of the initial map by Othniel: You might be editing towards making it more suitable for your style of play. Since you've marked yourself as a tight spacer, you might unconciously have made it more suitable for that.
But I don't know. I haven't got the vision of a really experienced player.