Testing out CxxC vs Metros for Space Race ability

[Pyrrhos]

"Right. avoiding science wonders, especially Newton's, may help CxxC."

*scratches head and makes that sound an impi makes*...

I think what is meant is that the Wonders in question do nothing for the Beaker & Dr Honeydew Bunsen crews of the CXXC science farms whereas the loss of the 50% beaker bonus would be a major setback to the CXXXXC metros. Hence "avoiding science wonders, especially Newton's, may help CxxC."

 

[Optional]

That's right Pyrrhos, Doug. Lefelhocz was just misunderstanding Mursi a bit. Everybody agrees: Science wonders are more effective in CxxxxC, so not having science wonders in the test helps CxxC.
Othniel should probably have science wonders in the test. You could perhaps argue that one would be enough. Not invading the other continent helps CxxxxC, because CxxC would be better at that, so maybe it's justified to clip CxxxxC a bit when it comes to science wonders. I don't know, it's Othniel's call, but at least one science wonder seems to be the minimum.

Colossus caps the corruption in the city where it's built at 80% by the way, so it'll never be in a 90% corrupt city. But we could try and minimise the chance of Othniel capturing it by creating only one coastal start in the game, and do that on the other continent. Fat chance the Colossus will be built there, and Othiel is planning not to invade the other continent.

About Othniel being better in the second attempt... hehe, I have to laugh here, with me it would work exactly the other way around: I would not have any puff left the second time playing on the same map. But it's Othniel playing, he's the better judge of his own mental capabilities.
I had not thought about playing the maps not simultaniously, but yes, if you do, you would need map knowledge, also first time round. There's a box in the editor that says: 'reveal map'. I suggest playing both maps with the map revealed. Seems simpler.
If Othniel wants to see the map first, well, I think he simply needs a map he likes the look of. It's Othniel playing, twice even. Let the rest of us bring coffee and snacks.
Do you still want input with regards of the map Othniel? Some of us can perhaps post some maps here, then people can raise issues, have a vote on which map; might be fun. The final call should be yours.

 

[timerover51]

Optional, I will try to post a map here tomorrow for you to take a look at. Personally, I think that the fully revealed map idea is a good one, as then you avoid any bias for the second game. Otherwise, I will try to get one up by Tuesday. Presently, I am dealing with a minor flood in the basement of my house courtesy of some heavy rains, so I might not get as much done tomorrow as I would like.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

@Lord Emsworth
Why would I build Cops and Newton's? I realize they boost science, but that doesn't seem like enough reason in and of itself for a test like this. Is it to see how well CxxC can build wonders or is there another reason I'm missing?

I don't think that there is the one reason for making those two wonders. However, the two possible reasons you gave here in combination with what Doug pointed out makes a fairly compelling case to try and do it.

(One drawback that I see however is, that you might quite well succeed in building both in one game, but not in the other.)

 

[Pyrrhos]

One drawback that I see however is, that you might quite well succeed in building both in one game, but not in the other.

Could be, as you imply, a result of chance. But it could also be a result of one being better for building wonders than the other.

 

[Optional]

What's the chance that Othniel will not manage to build those wonders? Given a decent start, on Emperor level this should be no problem with a well timed prebuild. Scientific Great Leaders are off, so there's no chance of an AI getting lucky and being able to rush it that way.

 

[Spoonwood]

"I think what is meant is that the Wonders in question do nothing for the Beaker & Dr Honeydew Bunsen crews of the CXXC science farms whereas the loss of the 50% beaker bonus would be a major setback to the CXXXXC metros."

Oh... he means that not having those science wonders *hurts cxxc less* than it does for metro spacing. Alright, O.K. But, it doesn't help cxxc science wise to not build Copernicus's and Newton's.

[But it could also be a result of one being better for building wonders than the other.]

For when Copernicus's and Newton's come, I'd doubt it. You'd build Copernicus's at size 12 either way... a decent cxxc can just micromanage which tiles he/she uses when building it. Newton's can get built after Shakespeare's... so metro spacing MAY have an advantage here, although as Optional mentioned on Emperor that wouldn't matter all too much. Still, he might get Newton's in fewer turns with metro spacing than cxxc spacing.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . Scientific Great Leaders are off, so there's no chance of an AI getting lucky and being able to rush it that way.

But the AI could still get lucky and get an MGL with which to rush a wonder.

 

[Gosnork]

MGLs can't rush Great Wonders in Complete, I don't know what Othniel is using though.

 

[Aabraxan]

MGLs can't rush Great Wonders for the human player in Complete. I think the AI can still use them for rushing GWs, though.

 

[Othniel]

Also, I'll ask that you post a screen-shot of your empires before you start taking any enemy territory. I'd like to know have some basis of information as to how cxxc vs. metro spacing works for players who simply don't want to go to war. So, that would give me at least something.

Done. I will be posting turnlogs and screenies as I play. The writeup will likely be more technical in nature than, say, a Stories and Tales writeup. Detailed info seems the point of the test.

Maybe Mayas are not the best civ for that test. How about Portugal? None of the GW we want to build is seafaring and the UU wont cause any problem. It may even help you to get decently timed contacts since you wont do any suicide run.

Great idea, I like it. I was going for average traits with Agriculture and Industrious; the no traits of the Portuguese works even better for making the test unbiased. It will mean a slower finish date with much poorer traits, but of course I'm skipping a GA and other things so the finish dates regardless probably won't be very good.

Portugal is now the official tribe of choice.

A seafaring civ gets commercial benefits from coastal cities in the center square. The more coastal cities you have, the more commercial benefits you get from the sea-faring trait... so, in terms of science, seafaring favors cxxc over metro spacing.

True. So, to make sure Portugal doesn't give an advantage to CxxC, let's mod the start so that I'm in the center of the continent. This should mean that most coastal cities will be pretty corrupt so the bonus won't do much good. Also, this has the side benefit of giving me a central capital so I don't have to worry about jumping the palace later on and opening that can of worms up to discussion.

The Wonders:

An ongoing source of discussion.

Lots of good points have been made for building science wonders, especially if I built a super-science metro with most of the science wonders in one place. Here's my newest opinion on wonders:

• I will build Cops, Newtons, and Seti in one location for both attempts. I will not build the Colossus at all.
• I will also build the UN, the ToE, and Hoover's somewhere.
• If we mod the Internet to have no GA traits--and we're sure it won't give me a GA--then I'll build that too.

My reasoning for this is as follows:
I wouldn't build the Colossus anyway in a normal game unless it was a 20k attempt. Building it would get in the way of expansion plans.

Please remember, this is my goal: to twice play through an "average" game with only limited restriction, playing the two separate styles as efficiently as possible.

With this goal in mind, even though I could pull off building the Colossus, I don't think it keeps with efficiency objective very well. On the other hand, making a super-science city with the rest of SCI wonders sounds fine. I will build it for both style in the (relatively) same city location.

I'm willing to build more wonders than normal because I feel I will have a glut of excessive production from the late Middle Ages onward. Once I've conquered my land area, building military will be pointless. So, I will lots of shields to pour into other projects.

For those wondering , I am pretty darn confident I can build all the wonders from the Middle Ages on. I feel I can easily dominate the Emperor civs and take the tech lead for good early on. With proper pre-builds, the wonder building shouldn't be tough. Ironically, I am actually less confident of my ability to grab all the SCI wonders for the Metro attempt. This is because I know I can jump out into the tech lead quickly with the CxxC approach. I'm slightly less sure I can do the same when I build the Metro style.

Related to this discussion, I plan on building the FP in the (relatively) same city. I will start a build or prebuild as needed quite early both times, probably around 1250BC. I am likely to build other small wonders as well, and when possible I will make sure to build the same small wonders for both attempts.

Optional, I will try to post a map here tomorrow for you to take a look at. Personally, I think that the fully revealed map idea is a good one, as then you avoid any bias for the second game. Otherwise, I will try to get one up by Tuesday. Presently, I am dealing with a minor flood in the basement of my house courtesy of some heavy rains, so I might not get as much done tomorrow as I would like.

That be great for you to post the map. What does fully revealed map do exactly?

Here's my running list for map mods:
Two continents with reasonably large, equal sized landmasses
Overall good terrain with limited tough terrain types
One or more of each strategic resource on each landmass, doesn't mean iron or horses has to be close to my start
Don't care about lux distribution as long as it's equitable
Mod Portugal to start in the relative center of the landmass
Mod Internet to have no GA traits??

I'd like to get a map selected by Wednesday if possible. I'll be leaving Friday-Monday for a conference and won't have any time to play in then. So, I'm eager to get in a few turns before I leave.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

it occurs to me that if you are going to use Metros, you should probably switch from Republic to Democracy at one point, since that should have at least some effect on corruption.

Also, how will the metros grow? Are you going to set up a couple of towns as worker pumps late in the game to help them grow? or will they be allowed to grow naturally?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

oh - one other thing.

A very valid strategy for a high research game is to have 1 coastal city build collosus, MoM, Lighthouse, SoZ, Oracle + the science wonders. On Emperor, you should be able to get any of those you want, and in conquests, the tourism bonuses you get from them can make that a serious research powerhouse.

 

[Spoonwood]

I think the Internet will benefit the metro player more than the cxxc player. The cxxc player probably has more specialist farms and the internet doesn't help as much here as it does in metros. True enough you have more "free" research labs for a cxxc spacing, but you also have less tiles worked per city... so that might balance out. Maybe it works the other way though. I'd think most players will build that if they can, so I'd build it.

 

[ZzarkLinux]

Subscribing.

My bet is on metros wins.

As for civs, you want trait impact on test to be minimal. I'd say expansionist should be used.
Just disband the initial scout = trait has no impact

also can tester please watch corruption carefully.
Corruption is a heavy influence on CXXC v metros

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I'd bet that CxxC wins by between 20-100 years.

 

[TheOverseer714]

What if the ai wins one of the games?

Highly unlikely, but that would be proof that the spacing sucked.

 

[Othniel]

What if the ai wins one of the games?

Lots of screaming followed by obliterating my computer with the nearest blunt object.

 

[Othniel]

it occurs to me that if you are going to use Metros, you should probably switch from Republic to Democracy at one point, since that should have at least some effect on corruption.

I think I want to stay Republic both times for the whole game. The extra anarchy would be killer.

Also, how will the metros grow? Are you going to set up a couple of towns as worker pumps late in the game to help them grow? or will they be allowed to grow naturally?

Yeah, good question. I will probably plan on doing worker pumps and joins. Most efficient way to grow the metros for sure.

A very valid strategy for a high research game is to have 1 coastal city build collosus, MoM, Lighthouse, SoZ, Oracle + the science wonders. On Emperor, you should be able to get any of those you want, and in conquests, the tourism bonuses you get from them can make that a serious research powerhouse.

Such a city would be more powerful than the science city I have proposed so far. But I want to start far from the coast to nerf the Seafaring coastal bonus plus I'm just against building the Colossus early on for a game like this.

As for civs, you want trait impact on test to be minimal. I'd say expansionist should be used.
Just disband the initial scout = trait has no impact

I'm using Portugal for precisely the reason you mentioned, minimal trait impact. Good suggestion on disbanding the scout, I will do that and also not build any more scouts.

I'm not going to give a bet on which style wins. I need to be objective. I DO need to run a practice game for the Metro style before I play that style's attempt. I will use a different map of course. Been too long since I used Metros and I don't want to kill the test by being rusty.

 

[timerover51]

I should get the map posted later today for you, Othniel. I will make sure that it meet all of your requirements. What AI civs will you be using, and do you wish them preassigned so that they are in the same place on both maps?