Teutonic Order and Prussia

[AbsintheRed]

For RFCE 1, Teutonic Order + Duchy of Prussia (I voted wrong, so it should be -1 from first option and +1 for the second, sorry)... I don't care about Brandenburg in this context, since to me RFCE would be better if it ended earlier and had longer Middle Ages instead. Fragmented HRE needs a bigger map.

Noted
I'm with you both on the longer Middle Ages, and on the fragmented HRE only with bigger a map question.
We can get back to the longer Middle Ages when discussing 2.0, I was already thinking about some changes there

 

[Askiya]

As I allready pointed out in the other threa, in 1618 the ruling line of Prussia ended:

"As in 1618, Albert Frederick had no surviving male heirs, the co-enfeoffment of 1569, confirmed by the Treaty of Warsaw in 1611, allowed his son-in-law, Elector John Sigismund of the Hohenzollern branch in Brandenburg, to become the duke's legal successor, thereafter ruling Brandenburg and Ducal Prussia in personal union."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_prussia#Transition_into_Brandenburg-Prussia_in_1618

So the Brandburg/Hohenzollern guys basically inherited Prussia - and I am pretty sure they did not move to Königsberg at that occasion. This was no "union", it was a takeover...
And while they later called themselves "Kings in/of Prussia" I am pretty sure they would not have denied beeing German - as would all the other Swabians and Bavarians and Saxon etc. around. There was a good reason why the HRE was called "Holy Roman Empire of the German nation".

Technically it was simply a personal union in which the capital was at Berlin. The only reason they called themselves Kings in/of Prussia was so they could have a kingdom status (which wasn't allowed in Brandenburg, an HRE state). So for all historical means Prussia should only be modeled as the Teutonic Order. But for gameplay means it is best to model Brandenburg-Prussia and the Teutonic Order as one civ. A historically determined game would be pretty tedious after all.

 

[AbsintheRed]

So, the vote currently:
14, 9, 2 (with edead's vote on the 2nd option)
Far from being decided

 

[AbsintheRed]

But for gameplay means it is best to model Brandenburg-Prussia and the Teutonic Order as one civ.

The question is whether we want to involve any part of the HRE in this civ

Cons:
It's ahistorical to connect the Teutonic Order and Brandenburg-Prussia this much. The way I see it, TO wasn't a real german state, it could have never happened that TO takes over the territory of Brandenburg and then lead the unification process as Kingdom of Prussia towards a German Empire. Even if we talk about a union between TO/Duchy of Prussia and Brandenburg in 1618, this could only work with Brandenburg as the leading party.
So this is resulting in a HRE state represented outside the HRE (whenever the "switch" to Brandenburg Prussia/Kingdom of Prussia theoretically happens, if nothing else by the upcoming UHV dates)

Pro:
While we can have a pretty decent gameplay with the shorter lifespan of TO/Duchy of Prussia too, I think many players want the fun of having a proper Prussia civ on the map (the actual Brandenburg-Prussia in real life), and expand it to the boundaries of the German Empire in 1870...

 

[Askiya]

The question is whether we want to involve any part of the HRE in this civ
Cons: Somewhat ahistorical, also resulting in a HRE state represented outside the HRE (whenever the "switch" to Brandenburg Prussia/Kingdom of Prussia theoretically happens, if nothing else by the upcoming UHV dates)

Pro: While we can have a pretty good gameplay with the shorter lifespan of TO/Duchy of Prussia too, I think many players want the fun of having a proper Prussia civ on the map (the actual Brandenburg-Prussia in real life), and expand it to the boundaries of the Germany Empire in 1872...

Actually the whole Brandeburg-Prussia idea may be better represented with a more fragmented HRE. The problem is then France would probably conquer all of it. And while its ahistorical, making the German Empire is pretty fun...

 

[AbsintheRed]

Actually the whole Brandeburg-Prussia idea may be better represented with a more fragmented HRE. The problem is then France would probably conquer all of it.

That's poll option one
(We won't really represent them here, only in 2.0)

And while its ahistorical, making the German Empire is pretty fun...

And that's poll option too
Which one do you prefer?

 

[gps]

Technically it was simply a personal union in which the capital was at Berlin. The only reason they called themselves Kings in/of Prussia was so they could have a kingdom status (which wasn't allowed in Brandenburg, an HRE state).

Exactly. Btw. another evidence that Brandenburg/Kingdom of Prussia was an integral part of the HRE: the ruler of Brandenburg was an elector ("Kurfürst"). And those electors were the people that actually elected the Emperor of the HRE. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince-elector). So simple and obvious that even I overlooke it for quite some time...
And I am all for making Prussia a separate Civ as soon as there is a plausible game mechanic for the HRE with more of the states represented. This could be actually one of the highlights of 2.0.

 

[Spirictum]

This could be actually one of the highlights of 2.0.

I totally agree with this. HRE could be a collection of some states, some playable and some minor in the bigger map of 2.0, and if nicely modded could be a jewel of RFCE 2.0

 

[Daedwartin]

On the question of what Prussia and the TO were...Most nations have a army. Prussia was an army occupying several nations.

 

[Askiya]

On the question of what Prussia and the TO were...Most nations have a army. Prussia was an army occupying several nations.

The TO was a monastic state which was really quite power hungry and tried to land-grab from everyone. Prussia was more of this small wimpy state at first that didn't do much. And even after Frederick the Great it was more of a nation than an army.

 

[Rorgloin]

After the thirty years war, any chance of effectively centralizing the Holy Roman Empire ended due to the Germanic liberties which granted independent rights to each Germanic state. The Emperors by this time were Austrian also. Prussia did not act as an appendege of the Holy Roman Empire-- it became a power in its own right, just like Austria. In addition to that, the Holy Roman Empire did not give rise to Germany-- Prussia gave rise to the unification of Germany over half a century after the Holy Roman Empire was disbanded by Napoleon.

 

[artyom]

in RFC++ Prussia was by far my favorite nation, and I miss it just for that. Although the AI did a terrible job with Prussia

my point is, if something worked then why change it?

 

[Kartoffelvampir]

I'm not sure what to choose: I would prefer Prussia/Brandenburg as a respawn of the Teutonic Order, like the north african respawn of Cordoba in 1.0, with Absinth's second approach of the UHV. So, kinda represented together, but not in the RFCE++ way.

 

[Spirictum]

I voted for a solo Teutonic Order (without Prussian traits) for 2 reasons:

I don't think RFCE 1.0 will give Prussia a place it deserves. Prussia will be the only "german" state to defy the HRE (Germany), making the region a dispute between Austria, Germany and Prussia, a situation a lot unrealistic. It would evolve from the Teutonic Order, and that would need a change of capital in the mid of the player's gameplay (not sure if this is good or at least not bad).

The Teutonic Order can be a lot improved by its solo implementation, and with its timeline fully in the mod its development (human or AI) can produce lots of interesting scenarios, besides having UHVs more related to its achievements. UU and UB would be earlier and would represent the TO well (different from a TO waiting to become Prussia to get its UU and UB).


When 2.0 is started, I think we could put Prussia on the game.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm not sure what to choose: I would prefer Prussia/Brandenburg as a respawn of the Teutonic Order, like the north african respawn of Cordoba in 1.0, with Absinth's second approach of the UHV. So, kinda represented together, but not in the RFCE++ way.

Actually that's entirely the second approach
Prussia (as in Brandenburg + Kingdom of Prussia) would be unplayable
So it's only adding a dynamic civ name for the Teutonic Order if they are respawned

 

[Rorgloin]

I voted for a solo Teutonic Order (without Prussian traits) for 2 reasons:

I don't think RFCE 1.0 will give Prussia a place it deserves. Prussia will be the only "german" state to defy the HRE (Germany), making the region a dispute between Austria, Germany and Prussia, a situation a lot unrealistic.QUOTE]

Actually, that is perfectly realistic-- the issue of German unification had to do with German dualism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_dualism
The two countries competed over who would be the major political power in Germany after the Holy Roman Empire declined in power.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Actually, that is perfectly realistic-- the issue of German unification had to do with German dualism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_dualism
The two countries competed over who would be the major political power in Germany after the Holy Roman Empire declined in power.

The 2 major powers were compiting for a real, total and permanent power (and not just a HRE emperor title) in all of the HRE.
But both states were part of the HRE. And Germany represents the HRE on the current map
So actually, the real question is why is Austria separate... at least from a strictly historical point of view

 

[Askiya]

The 2 major powers were compiting for a real, total and permanent power (and not just a HRE emperor title) in all of the HRE.
But both states were part of the HRE. And Germany represents the HRE on the current map
So actually, the real question is why is Austria separate... at least from a strictly historical point of view

Austria is separate probably because it held large amounts of land in and outside of the HRE. You could use that same reasoning to add Prussia, really. Although Poland would have to be buffed a little bit so its not so easily curbstomped.

 

[Rorgloin]

The 2 major powers were compiting for a real, total and permanent power (and not just a HRE emperor title) in all of the HRE.
But both states were part of the HRE. And Germany represents the HRE on the current map
So actually, the real question is why is Austria separate... at least from a strictly historical point of view

Historically Austria should absolutely be included on this scale and timeframe-- I think we have a misconception of what the Holy Roman Empire actually is. It became closer to a line on the map than an actual state; by the end of the thirty years' war, the Holy Roman Emperor had so little control that, despite nominally belonging to the Holy Roman Empire, most German states exercised their own power. Austria and Prussia were the two most powerful by a considerable margin. Note that their borders were not totally located within the Holy Roman Empire-- East Prussia was not a part of the Holy Roman Empire. Representing the two of them with a generic Germany civilization on the scale of this mod cannot work historically (unless perhaps the mod's timeframe ends before the 1600s), which I am assuming is why Austria was originally included. I am just uncertain as to why Prussia was omitted. Austria and Prussia were both major European powers along with Britain, France, and Russia.
If you want to make it possible for Germany to stay united assuming the player or AI does very well at keeping high stability and such, you could make the spawns of Austria and Prussia conditional. I cannot see valid historical grounds for either of them not being included at least after the thirty years' war (unless the conditional approach is taken, of course).

 

[Daedwartin]

Historically Austria should absolutely be included on this scale and timeframe-- I think we have a misconception of what the Holy Roman Empire actually is. It became closer to a line on the map than an actual state; by the end of the thirty years' war, the Holy Roman Emperor had so little control that, despite nominally belonging to the Holy Roman Empire, most German states exercised their own power. Austria and Prussia were the two most powerful by a considerable margin. Note that their borders were not totally located within the Holy Roman Empire-- East Prussia was not a part of the Holy Roman Empire. Representing the two of them with a generic Germany civilization on the scale of this mod cannot work historically (unless perhaps the mod's timeframe ends before the 1600s), which I am assuming is why Austria was originally included. I am just uncertain as to why Prussia was omitted. Austria and Prussia were both major European powers along with Britain, France, and Russia.
If you want to make it possible for Germany to stay united assuming the player or AI does very well at keeping high stability and such, you could make the spawns of Austria and Prussia conditional. I cannot see valid historical grounds for either of them not being included at least after the thirty years' war (unless the conditional approach is taken, of course).

even more important: Germany wouldnt have united if Napoleon hadnt conquered most of europe, and ruled it under a single administration. This would influence Germany and Italy to later unify themselves, in the process making Europe actually view-able on the map with ease.

The HRE is a real pain in my conquests in EU3, because of the fact its ridiculously easy to conquer most of it due to it really being hundreds of city states, but doing so causing legitimacy and infamy to drop like a rock.
and the Emperor generally being Austria...beyond Bohiema, Austria, Burgundy (which was part of the HRE), Brandunburg/Tetounic Order/ Prussia/Germany, and Poland, its really just a paper tiger.