TGOM 02 - The Grumpy Old Monk and the Ancient Crone go to Alpha Centauri

I'm glad to see you're making progress, Brad. :) If possible, I'd like to have time for discussion and then play my set before the weekend ends.
 
At long last, your patience has been rewarded.

This is going to be even more verbose than normal. I would really appreciate feedback on anything that looks amiss.

Pre-turn: Micro-managing. I can't figure out why Farm6 has so few specialists, so I hire some taxmen. Which reminds me -- is it time to think about building aquaducts in our farms? 3 watered and railed grasslands will support 4 specialists and the 2gpt savings in unit support will cover the maintenance on the 'duct. Tyendenaga is at 14spt (including the 4spt waste) and building a factory. Cronetown is at 16spt (including 3spt waste) but is building an arty and does not have a factory -- so I switch it to a factory. Hire a CE in Cattaraugus, which stops growth but significantly hurries harbor, which will help growth in the long run. Ditto for Grand River.

IBT: ToE comes in. We get Communism and Fascism. Just kidding, although I am glad I checked the Science Advisor, since Bede left a little surprise for me in the way of having The Corporation selected as the next tech. I get Atomic Theory and Electronics of course. Change Bedeville to Hoover, due in 4. Salamanca: ToE >> Hospital. Scoutsville: Courthouse >> Factory.

1255 AD: Make this deal with X-Man.
eotinb_pic20_X-mandeal.jpg


Then I get Refining from Hammi for Atomix and a modest lump sum.
eotinb_pic21_Hammideal.jpg


We don't have oil, but Persia is just asking for us to poach this one.
eotinb_pic22_poachableoil.jpg


Switch North Pole to settler (due next turn) to do just that. Other than optional techs, we are caught up with the Persia/Bablyon glom on the top of the tech tree and still up Electronics on the bottom. Changing all taxmen to scientists and maxing out research, Steel is due in 6 at +137gpt.

IBT: Lots of WLTKDs end. Mayhem City: Factory >> Courthouse. Clever Springs: Military Academy >> Hospital. Ironically, love for the chief has morphed into admiration, as I get to expand our palace.

1260 AD: Worker moves and MMing.

IBT: Shaka and X-Man sign mutual protection pact, leading to this.
eotinb_pic23_endofafriendship.jpg


Alex begs us to help him take down Abe. I turn him away. Eotin Bay: University >> Factory. Smelly Sticks: Hospital >> Infantry. We are about to have our first metropolis. El-Amarna: Library >> Courthouse (it's close enough to be productive). North Pole: Settler >> Artillery. Waystation: Library >> Aquaduct.

1265 AD: Libs and univs coming in have shaved a turn off of Steel, now due in 3. Getting in position to poach oil from Persia.

IBT: Shaka joins the anti-Alex party. Hoover Dam comes in. Bedeville: Hoover >> Hospital. Mayhem City: Courthouse >> Infantry (not enough excess food to justify a Hospital unless we do some major tile rearranging). Abydos: Library >> Artillery.

1270 AD: Loss of Alex's dyes causes unrest in a few cities. Since I really want to stay on track to get Steel in 2 I look into hiring clowns. Turns out I can do so without slowing down any of the builds in Salamanca, Bedeville, Smelly Sticks, or Tyendenaga (the four cities about to go into disorder) so I do so. Since I'm considering declaring on Alex, I use our RoP to look around. He's defending with rifles and of course his core has got lots of jungle, which will make for slow going. He has coal but I didn't see any rail yet. The biggest challenge will be that we share such a long border. Lots of choices as to how to attack him, but I think it would make the most sense to take out his outpost in our east first, then concentrate on his core south of us while cleaning up his outlying area in our southwest as resources permit. I have a few cavs that ran out of movement while scouting in his territory, so I'll wait at least until next turn to do the deed.

IBT: Salamanca: Hospital >> Infantry. Smelly Sticks: Infantry >> Infantry. Hammi attacks Sparta halfheartedly.

1275 AD: Oil Springs founded. X-Man even railed it for us, what a nice guy. Steel is coming in next turn, but with hardly any overshoot. I change just a few scientists into taxmen to pinch every penny. Couple of cavs still trying to get out of Greece, so I will continue to hold off on declaring. We already have one metropolis (Smelly) with another couple on the way. I really want to get those dyes back pronto.

IBT: The iron deal with Abe expires. He doesn't want to pay nearly as much for it now (5gpt compared to 56) -- I think he's broke. The only other person we could sell it to is Alex, but he's even more broke. Steel comes in, and we are the first to get it. In fact, Hammi and X-Man are both willing to sell the farm to get both Steel and Electronics, despite the fact that they don't like us much. I suppose this means they aren't close to getting either one. I don't make either deal at this time. We are still making money while running at 100% science with the deals we already have. Combustion due in 6, but I might be able to shave a turn off of that when I switch those taxmen back to scientists. Harriet Bay: Hospital >> University. Mayhem City: Infantry >> Infantry. Venerable Valley: University >> Hospital (only size 7 now, but lots of food potential and not much shield potential makes this seem like the thing to do). Lurkersville: University >> Factory. Grand River: Harbor >> Artillery.

1280 AD: I can't get Combustion any sooner than 6 turns, so I dial science down to 90% and push lux up to 10% to pacify our larger cities. I convert the clowns in those towns to scientists (which don't make any difference at the moment, but since all the specialists we have allow us to be very precise in preventing overrun, I might as well go all out for now). What the hell -- I decide to declare on Alex. Hurry a couple of settlers in Asyut and Waystation to re-settle after I raze some of Alex's core. I intend to keep the cities farther from Athens. In the process of taking Herakleia with obsolete Mounties, an elite one promotes. Since tanks are around the corner, perhaps this guy can wait to become a tank army. Sadly, one of his hoplites takes down a cav, but I take and keep the city, putting the Greek citizen to work on a temple. Lose a guerilla taking out a rifle near Niagara Falls despite redlining him first with cannons. Move into position near Troy, Knossos, and Marathon. Alex's lack of horses allows me to be more aggressive near our mutual border.

IBT: The lux trade with Shaka expires and he wants more this time around. I decide to part with SciMeth for the spices and gems (and some chump change).
eotinb_pic24_re-upwithshaka.jpg


X-Man wants a MPP and RoP, but I turn him down. Hammi takes Sparta :mad:. Lose a Mountie on defense (he was capturing workers). Salamanca gets polluted, also: Infantry >> Infantry. Bedeville: Hospital >> University. Smelly Sticks: Infantry >> Infantry. Asyut: Settler >> Settler. Tyendenaga: Factory >> Artillery. Waystation: Settler >> Settler.

1285 AD: Take and raze Knossos, losing a guerilla and a cav. Then Marathon, losing a cav. Take and keep Troy, as it's pretty far from Athens and I should be able to keep a healthy garrison there and who knows if X-Man has a settler waiting to take the spot if I leave it open. Auto-raze Halicarnassus, losing 3 cavs.

IBT: Lose a cav on defense and a short stack of cannons that I will take right back -- Alex just moved them for me. Mayhem City: Infantry >> Infantry. Clever Springs: Hospital >> University. The people are clamoring for Battlefield Medicine. Doesn't seem like we fight often enough to make it worth the investment, but what do others think? Kiohero: Library >> Aquaduct.

1290 AD: Found Our Knossos >> Temple. Take out a longbowman standing on our stack of cannons and move them into position near Ephesus. Make a suicide run on Corinth, losing a cav and killing the only rifle guarding the city -- just a longbowman for now but I've got no attacks left. War weariness threatens the calm in a few of our larger cities -- I switch scientists in those towns back to clowns and hire Lurkersville's first specialist (a scientist) to stave off civil disorder. Lose a cav and promote an infantry taking out a rifle near Niagara Falls. Lose an infantry taking (and keeping) Thessalonica, start a temple. Continue to fine tune builds.

IBT: Shaka and Abe kiss and make up. Salamanca: Infantry >> Infantry. Smelly Sticks: Infantry >> Infantry. Panama City: Courthouse >> Marketplace (needs the happiness help -- it will never be very productive but could get pretty large if we want it to).

1295 AD: Clever Springs grows to 13 and needs a clown, so I reassign a scientist. Found Our Halicarnassus on the spot of the original one, get it to work on a temple. Raze Corinth -- Hammi will surely get a settler there before we can but I didn't want to tie down my forces with a garrison. Guerilla promotes taking out stray rifle.

Summary: Troops poised to take out Zariqum, Argos, Pharsalos, and Ephesus in the next couple of turns. Asyut and Waystation making settlers to re-settle Greek core, with one due up next turn and the other in 3. I've been using Salamanca, Smelly Sticks, and Mayhem City to pump out infantry -- I figured cavs will soon be obsolete, don't upgrade, and their movement advantage is negated in the Greek jungles anyway. We have a leader in Salamanca that I was saving to make a tank army but do with him as you see fit. Tyendenaga is caught up on buildings for now, so I was using it to make artillery at a faster pace than our corrupt lands (no barracks there and I didn't see the need to build one). Combustion in 3, with enough overrun to make some decent coin on the last turn. War weariness is starting to become a factor but is currently managable with a few clowns in our larger cities. We still have a monopoly on Steel and Electronics, either of which we could trade to Hammi for his new dyes once he re-roads around Sparta. You'll notice that I picked up Fascism as a kicker in an earlier deal but not Communism or Espionage. That was an accident on my part -- I thought I would trade Atomix to X-Man for The Corporation + gold and one of the three (Fascism as it turned out) and to Hammi for the other two and whatever gold he could spare. But when I got The Corp I saw they both had Refining and that changed the equation. I now realize I should have got one that would do us some good in the first deal with X-Man (there has been some talk of switching to Communism and Espionage is always nice). On the other hand, since we are currently maintaining a tech lead there is no need to steal techs and not enough coin anyway since we are self-researching. We can obviously get either or both from any of our friendly neighbors whenever we would like to. I think that covers almost everything. Territory pics to follow.

Ye Olde Save
 
Far western front:
eotinb_pic25_westernpenninsula.jpg


Southern front, west end:
eotinb_pic26_westerngreekjungles.jpg


Southern front, east end:
eotinb_pic27_easterngreekjungles.jpg


Our western lands:
Edit: seems this picture is all screwed up. Rather than re-open civ and take the screen shot again, I'll just encourage everyone to use their imaginations.

Our eastern territory:
eotinb_pic29_oureast.jpg
 
Good going, Brad! :goodjob:

Got it. I'm going to go take a look at the save, but have a question in case Bede and the rest of the team see this before I return. I turned off "automatically renegotiate deals" in my last turnset to end the ROP with Cleo. I usually play with it turn ON and have inherited Bede's turns with it ON, so I'm thinking it was a one-time change for a particular reason. I just need clarification.

I'll probably have lots more questions. I'm very weak (chicken-hearted?) at warfare unless I'm at least a full age ahead of the AI...like using bombers on LB's. Looks like I may need to learn a few things VERY quickly. ;)
 
Although not exactly an entire age ahead of Greece, they are certainly backwards and are collapsing fast. Cavs + infantry + cannons/artillery vs rifles is pretty one-sided. I think the biggest challenge for the short term is eliminating Alex before war weariness takes too big a toll
 
Own said:
If you want a hint, attack cities mainly with armies...
Well, we have just one and it's down to 3/13. And that AWR game was about 3 months ago, and I haven't done an AW since.

@the team - As Brad said, we have an MGL unused. We could make an army of cavs or infantry, though our (mostly) healthy units are currently poised to take Greek towns. The 3/13 army made me wonder if we should use the MGL to make Battlefield Medicine in one of our fishing villages. I don't know how fast that heals an army in the field (or any units for that matter). What do you think?

Should we rush the temple building in Oil Springs? That's where our oil is, and it's right next to that Persian town. If it flipped to Persia, we'd be in trouble.

After taking the 4 Greek towns Brad set up for me, any thoughts on where to go from there? Also, as a separate question from reading wayyyy too many SG's recently, it seems the general rule is "Don't separate your stacks", and we currently have 4 of them to take 2 size 1, 1 size 2, and 1 size 4 towns. Some of the units are less than full health, we have mostly cannons and only a few arty. Will that be enough? I'm asking because I really have no idea of what to expect. (I really need to find a chicken icon. :p ) [edit: found one]
chicken.jpg


Combustion is due in 3? Then what? I personally like bombers and flight could be next. Motorized Transp for tanks is 2 techs away.

I checked the MMing. Most of it looks pretty good. I see that Salamanca can go from 48 to 50spt without losing anything else, though it isn't needed for the current build. Seems like I read recently that 50 is perfect for something...bombers in 2 maybe??? I think maybe a couple of farms can have taxmen without reducing our research, but I didn't go through the whole exercise of changing them yet. I also wonder about starving down some of our recent conquests by building workers, rather than temples, but I'm never sure when that's the best thing to do...could use some pointers, both specific and general. I guess we don't want to disband them without quick settler replacements...2 of those are in the works.

I'm always uneasy about warring, and probably missed even asking about some of the things I don't know about it.
 
So many questions, where do I start? At the beginning of course!

gmaharriet said:
@the team - As Brad said, we have an MGL unused. We could make an army of cavs or infantry, though our (mostly) healthy units are currently poised to take Greek towns. The 3/13 army made me wonder if we should use the MGL to make Battlefield Medicine in one of our fishing villages. I don't know how fast that heals an army in the field (or any units for that matter). What do you think?

Any kind of army is nice and Battlefield Medicine is just the right size for a SS part pre-build, so fill an army with cavalry, get some artillery and go have a ball.


Harriet said:
Should we rush the temple building in Oil Springs? That's where our oil is, and it's right next to that Persian town. If it flipped to Persia, we'd be in trouble.

Skip the temple, check the cities tab in CA2 and fill the garrison.

chicken.jpg
braveheart chicken said:
After taking the 4 Greek towns Brad set up for me, any thoughts on where to go from there? Also, as a separate question from reading wayyyy too many SG's recently, it seems the general rule is "Don't separate your stacks", and we currently have 4 of them to take 2 size 1, 1 size 2, and 1 size 4 towns. Some of the units are less than full health, we have mostly cannons and only a few arty. Will that be enough? I'm asking because I really have no idea of what to expect.

Pick your targets, personally I would pull back from the south and clear the west. Is there any oil in that jungle?, if there is secure it.

Get your artillery, cavalry and infantry together and keep them together, don't go chasing strays or workers ( a real :smoke: move there Brad, BTW. If I read your log right capturing a Greek slave cost a stack of cav and some artillery. True you got the peashooters back but if there had been a city waiting ti receive them you might not have)

You want to bring overwhelming force to bear, not run out of gas at a city's gates where the enemy can pick at your wounded with impunity.


gmH said:
Combustion is due in 3? Then what? I personally like bombers and flight could be next. Motorized Transp for tanks is 2 techs away.

Airplanes is really good!

the question lady said:
I'm always uneasy about warring, and probably missed even asking about some of the things I don't know about it.

Just remember the two principles of Civ warcraft: mass and velocity, and you will do just fine. Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast. How you go about doing that is a matter of preference and style.
 
@Harriet: I am pretty sure none of the Greek towns I kept are at great chance of flipping, but I am certainly no expert on the matter. I did check the cities tab in CAII and Oil Springs, for instance, is not at any greater risk than Niagara Falls.

@Bede: Point taken on strays, but if I don't go after them, what do I do about them? Obviously the railnet allows me to shift around defenders to keep a stray from waltzing into an unguarded town, but I don't feel comfortable allowing them to run amok either.

Other matters: I didn't see any oil in Alex's jungles, but I can't say for certain that there isn't any there either. The cav army and cav escorts south of what was Corinth are in neutral territory so don't need Battlefield Medicine to heal.

As for the MM, Salamanca could go quite a bit more than 50spt when that is needed. Since I only had it making infantry, I optimized for excess food both for growth and to support specialists, as well as to leave productive tiles to neighbors who might need an extra shield here and there to shave a turn off a build. The same goes for the other towns making units. In general I used the production tab in CAII to check for projected shield overrun and tried to optimize each city, picking up extra shields to speed a build if I could shave a turn, or absent that emphasizing food as I just explained. Harriet, you are right that many of our scientists aren't necessary since we will overrun Combustion. If you want to match scientists/taxmen to the completion of Combustion, be my guest. I choose not to do that for three reasons: 1) It's a pain in the butt; 2) It might have to be redone every time I fiddled with specialists to optimize a build or prevent civil disorder from war weariness; and 3) I believe you will get just as much gold if you wait until the last turn of the research and then switch as many scientists to taxmen as you can get away with. Scientists/taxmen give much finer control over how the incoming gold is split between the treasury and research than the sliders. That greater resolution allows you to max out science until right before the tech comes in and then match the scientist/taxman ratio almost exactly to what you need to finish the tech. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.
 
Feel free to take your time Harriet, there's no way I'll be able to take it until Thursday (project overload...), so if I come up before then I'd like to swap back with clever if it works with him.
 
eotinb said:
1) It's a pain in the butt; 2) It might have to be redone every time I fiddled with specialists to optimize a build or prevent civil disorder from war weariness; and 3) I believe you will get just as much gold if you wait until the last turn of the research and then switch as many scientists to taxmen as you can get away with.
Yeah, especially #1. :lol: However, I've just learned how to do this and need the practice, so it's a good learning experience. I felt the same way the first time someone on this board suggested I actually manage all my workers. :eek: Combustion came in right on the nose.

@General Mayhem I don't think you have to worry about my hurrying. It took me 5 hours to play 3 turns...on a weekend when I'm not tired (well...wasn't tired). ;) At about 3 turns per evening, I should finish just about the time you're ready.

I've realized I didn't have a plan except to try to reinforce the units ready to strike. I took one town the first turn (but just barely) and the other 3 the next (I think, but I'd have to look at my turnlog.) Third turn was mostly rearranging defensively and getting wounded units to rax. We got an MGL and I could use suggestions on how to use it. I'm not sure we need another cav army to mop up in the N/W.

There are 3 Greek towns left in the N/W. Athens is pop 1 and Sparta? pop 3, and I think the Babs will get them in a turn or two. I'm way too tired to make a plan tonight, but will look with fresh eyes tomorrow night.

Thanks for the tips, Bede. I had a short reply all typed when the board went down for maintenance. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't post it, but found Whomp and Admiral K online and they said the down time was scheduled. I should learn to look for ThunderFall's notices. :mischief:

Almost forgot...I traded Atomic Theory and Steel to Shaka for Communism and Espionage. He had come demanding dyes on turn 1 immediately after I hit enter, and I was too surprised to think through the 3 rules of trading, but remembered that we wanted those. I didn't even think to sell them on to anyone else (I'm old and my short-term memory doesn't work well under stress. Sorry, Bede!) I've never used either one before, so advice would be very welcome.
 
Did someone say espionage? :evil: Can we talk about it now Professor Bede? Pretty please with :bounce: on top.
 
eotinb said:
@Bede: Point taken on strays, but if I don't go after them, what do I do about them?
That's just it, you don't do 'anything' about them, especially in enemy territory. I know it is hard to resist the temptation to pick off that exposed enemy cavalry... but if your cavalry is left exposed and picked off IBT, what have you gained? Preservation of force is one key to improving your kill ratio. Civ warfare beyond monarch level is all about your kill ratio. Since the Cavalry that costs you 80 shields costs the AI 64 shields at emperor level, it is imperative to kill more than you lose.

Aside from that, chasing strays pulls you from your objective. What if that one Cav you sent chasing strays was the one you needed to kill that last defender at the next enemy city?

If you're concerned about "stray" enemy units, maintain a reserve within your borders. Put a couple/three good defensive units with 1 or 2 'freeshot' units (archers/longbows/guerillas) in each town that can be reached by the enemy fast units in one turn. Empty the garrisons in the interior if you must. If you want a counterpunch to fend off interlopers, keep a handful of Cavalry in reserve - just don't let cavalry accumulate to the point that you're not sending reinforcements to the front... from the sound of it, a reserve of 2-4 should be sufficient.
 
@ scout and bede, I was attempting to tell harriet how to keep an offensive going moving the art and workers togethor with an army. I know I didn't do it well. A tutorial would be in order.
 
Admiral Kutzov said:
@ scout and bede, I was attempting to tell harriet how to keep an offensive going moving the art and workers togethor with an army. I know I didn't do it well. A tutorial would be in order.
Actually, you explained it to me just fine and by my 2nd turn that's exactly what I was doing. I'd have never been able to move my arty around where I needed them if I hadn't had those workers right there railing underneath the feet of the troops. It was exactly the advice I needed just before the moment I needed it. Thanks, AK! :goodjob:

Edit to add: Maybe some of the other team members would like a tutorial. I guess I always assume the rest of you know a lot more than I do, and you definitely do know more on many topics. :)
 
Espionage is good. Let's build the Intelligence Agency and steal some techs just for kicks. It isn't needed for a SS launch other than to keep tabs on the neighbors.

Scout has it right on the the strays. They can't hurt you if you have a mobile reserve at home. All I know is every time I give in to the temptation to whack a loose cavlaryman or so I end up regretting it.

Now a stack of six with infantry cover is a whole 'nother story. Them's not strays, son, them's the herd, so you need to round 'em up.

Brad is right about the tax/science guy thing when you are running at 100% science. That marginal three beakers becomes less important. If you are running at 70% that last three beakers is often the difference between five or four turns. But once you establish the proper ratio of budget and beakerheads to hit the number of turns you want you don't need to fiddle with them every turn, unless you are going broke. Then you can sell maps every turn :D
 
Bede said:
Brad is right...
What a nice surprise to open the thread and see that Bede left me a present.

gmaharriet said:
Maybe some of the other team members would like a tutorial. I guess I always assume the rest of you know a lot more than I do, and you definitely do know more on many topics.
Someone seems to have forgotten who was dunderheaded enough to earn both a rant and a smoked smiley directed his way. I'm never one to turn down a tutorial. I think I know what this is about, but wouldn't mind a quick overview if someone was willing to write one up.

scoutsout said:
That's just it, you don't do 'anything' about them, especially in enemy territory. I know it is hard to resist the temptation to pick off that exposed enemy cavalry... but if your cavalry is left exposed and picked off IBT, what have you gained? Preservation of force is one key to improving your kill ratio. Civ warfare beyond monarch level is all about your kill ratio. Since the Cavalry that costs you 80 shields costs the AI 64 shields at emperor level, it is imperative to kill more than you lose.
Putting it in terms of shield cost makes it crystal clear. Thanks, scout.

Edit: Any reason to build police stations? What's the threshold at which they make sense?
 
Bede said:
Espionage is good. Let's build the Intelligence Agency and steal some techs just for kicks. It isn't needed for a SS launch other than to keep tabs on the neighbors.
I just came back to ask that very question. I'm starting turn 6 and can build it in 8 turns in either Bedeville or Mayhem City. Also in Clever, but could build an Army there in 8 and don't know if we want one...we currently have 3 armies.

We can also build the Pentagon in 8. Sallie can build all except an army, but in 1 or 2 more turns. I have the feeling we'll be fighting the Babs before this is over, so what do you think, team?

We have the whole N/W now except for the darned Persian city. I'm wondering if it's time to make peace with Greece now as WW is kicking in. I could get an Army to Delphi in 1 turn, but not sure how much power it would have left, the jungles would prevent arty backup, and the Babs are at their gates. I'm gonna post the save if anyone wants to check it out, and I'll wait to play until I get some input.

Brad is right about the tax/science guy thing when you are running at 100% science. That marginal three beakers becomes less important. If you are running at 70% that last three beakers is often the difference between five or four turns. But once you establish the proper ratio of budget and beakerheads to hit the number of turns you want you don't need to fiddle with them every turn, unless you are going broke. Then you can sell maps every turn :D
I MM'd to shave 1 turn off of Flight at +66. If I don't need to check every turn, um, I think I've had enough practice for awhile. :p Maybe I'll just do it the last turn and then the first turn for a new tech.

There have been no trade options, but I didn't think about map selling. :mischief:

The save:
 
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