The 4 cities swords rush strategy

[pontias]

appreciate the effort tabernak - my starts need definite improvement and this definitely helps.

also, thanks for comments dave and tommy - I'm getting most of my knowledge from you 3 with the GOTM so keep it up

remember guys, when english isn't first language, sometimes people come across a bit differently to how they intend.. don't think tommy meant any offense.

 

[Ruler]

Looks nice. I dont think Ive ever played game yet where early rush was needed, something I kind of miss from Civ 4. Crossbows are good for first attack, unless you're playing Archipelago where I wait Frigates and Longswords.

 

[Monthar]

Thanks for the details on this strategy. I think I may use this for TSG25 when I get around to starting it.

 

[shg]

I don't get it. Tried this in different games now and it end up getting crushed.
Can't take a city with 4-6 Swords, let alone a Cap. In every game my neighbour has tons of units and most of the times a GG. Scince sucks big times, <50 BPT by T120 oO?
Oh and in every single try i ended up with being in war with at least 3 civs, yet the cap of my first target still alive. So after 100 turns, if usually have my 4 cities + 1 puppet no scince at all (LS arount T100 with GS from Liberty) and war with half of the world -.-

 

[qemist]

I do get the sense he's young though, mostly from his writing style.

From that you can infer only that he is mentally young.

 

[peddroelm]

I don't get it. Tried this in different games now and it end up getting crushed.
Can't take a city with 4-6 Swords, let alone a Cap. In every game my neighbor has tons of units and most of the times a GG. Scince sucks big times, <50 BPT by T120 oO?
Oh and in every single try i ended up with being in war with at least 3 civs, yet the cap of my first target still alive. So after 100 turns, if usually have my 4 cities + 1 puppet no scince at all (LS arount T100 with GS from Liberty) and war with half of the world -.-

For tabarnak and other experienced warmongers with tens maybe even hundreds of warmongering games behind them its hard to remember that some basic stuff that comes naturally to them needs to be explained in detail - to players new to CIV 5 or new to early warmongering ...


1. Your initial scouting done by [warrior and scout] must provide a viable target - conquering a city with weak-comparable strength melee units involves surrounding the city first (ideally a full 6 surround ) - realistically at least 4 with opposing units and inaccessible terrain, attacking with all in the same turn. [and using some INSTAHEAL abuse on the fallowing turns if necessary] Attacking with less will result in dealing insufficient damage - losing health - soldiers and usually failure. TERRAIN around your would be victim DICTATES WHETHER YOU CAN CONQUER THE CAPITAL WITH SIX SWORDS .. You are looking ideally for targets surrounded by open terrain that will not hinder movement. You don't want to spend 10 turns, trying to move your troops in position while opposition rains arrows decimating your force ... (Notable exceptions Pachacuti's swords can move normally over hills, Montezuma's jaguar upgraded swords can move normally trough forests - even preferable for the increased defensive bonuses) and Harald who can attack across rivers//from water without penalties) .
IF the would be capital target is in reasonable terrain and you can envision a fast route for your swords to surround - THEN you settle your proxy city next to it ELSE you search for a REALISTIC target..

2. You have scouted for a suitable target - good terrain ...Why place a proxy city next to it ? Because you want to minimize the interval between upgrading your warriors to swords and getting them in position around the victim's borders ready to invade tic toc tic toc ... Placing a proxy city near somebody's capital - is a clear declaration on intent. 9 times out of 10 [its 10 out 10 with warmongers like Nobunaga, Suleiman and others ..] it will result on that AI declaring WAR BEFORE you research Iron Working and get the crucial tech advantage ...Placing of this city should be obvious - remember all that ugly terrain difficulties you didn't want to face on attack - try to secure them for your proxy city ...Bring most/all your warriors to defend this city and fortify them in good locations ... This city might delay building the monument and directly with warriors (those warriors have 0 travel time between where they get produced and where they need to be ..)

3. This goes for all your cities REGARDING TO OPTIMIZING PRODUCTION -> you will need to pay close attention to city placement, tile improvement and citizen allocation ..

During this unhappiness period {you will start by spamming cities all the way to -9 happiness the limit where it starts to affect production and combat effectiveness}

A 1 city settled on a hill working an improved horse in plains tile or mine (3 ) with Republic social policy gets 6 ..ideal -> [Russia will get 7 ] .. Its still decent not settling hills but with at least with soon to be improved hill or horse resource in the first ring (5 )...

Latter when you exit unhappiness and can grow them to reach 2 -> with a granary both citizens can work production tiles -> again a Russian city settled on a hill with 2 improved plains horse tiles is production champ - 11.55
(If you luck out on a tech ruin with Wheel and have the city river side you can replace granary with Water Mill for an extra +1 production)

As a general tile improvement priority EARLY PRODUCTION FOCUSED order for this strategy

- mining luxuries (will typically have mining before the first worker) - will probably sell those first for Worker purchase or Sword upgrade
- horses - again production and cash (lots of cash if Russia)
- mines (forested hills better)
- chop forests over calendar luxuries
- good food tiles (granary resources, river farms around the capital)
- iron when available becomes top priority
- other luxuries after tech allows it to get to positive happy [GROWTH = SCIENCE] ASAP

4. Once you "secured" first your capital - you need to get back to positive happiness ASAP WASTING AS FEW TURNS RESEARCHING LUX TECHS as possible ...

- research the tech that will give you most happiness and connect them ASAP (here is where settling on luxuries comes in -it saves time here)
- buy off a CS with a diffrent lux and possibly IRON or horses if you have horse UU
- trade duplicates for duplicates if available and will get you happiness

5. Unless you play the Iroquois or manage to luck out on having an earlier city settled on Iron or already have it ready to mine on territory - the forth settler MUST -TRAVEL(delay) and settle directly on top of a 6 iron patch[eliminating tile impovement delay]...
If no Iron in sight - best//only solution(no one will trade you iron this early) is probably to dump 500 on CS with Iron (check if they have improved it before paying) ..

6. Catching up on Tech afterwards is important - will need to work on it - might involve some early RA cooking to catch up to education [HS-PT combo] ..Will need to do some rereading of the RA guide on War Academy

Here is a screen shot of my latest attempts with the Iroquois

Spoiler :

Lost a Mohawk going in to surround because of terrain and Samoa's placement ...Burned a few instaheals .. Cathy ran interference but I don't think she influenced much (then again maybe the Maori warriors were fighting Russian troops off-screen)

Will probably not push on towards Samoa too soon as my happiness does not allow it .
For happiness solution -> had to sell the gems for upgrade cash..

Brought a cultured CS ally ...(sold some duplicates for cash)
Traded Cathy duplicates
Will need to take a detour trough masonry for marble (already settled on it) -> and then I'm good to grow...

Will probably do as suggested by Tabarnak and try to get libraries up for NC ...

---
Edit - lol - next turn 57 Askia declared war and returned my gems to me - time to reposition the Mohawks

 

[tommynt]

maybe one should add that time is the crucial thing when playing civ at higher lvls.

Can't take a city with 4-6 Swords, let alone a Cap. In every game my neighbour has tons of units and most of the times a GG. Scince sucks big times, <50 BPT by T120 oO?
Oh and in every single try i ended up with being in war with at least 3 civs, yet the cap of my first target still alive. So after 100 turns, if usually have my 4 cities + 1 puppet no scince at all (LS arount T100 with GS from Liberty) and war with half of the world -.-

Obviously swords wont be enough to take capitals in turn 100+

But with following tabernaks guide and teching horse-->iron and nothing else in between u should have Iron around or before turn 50 - with upgrading and moving u should attack before turn 60 your 1. target and its cap should still be below strength 14.

And not have more then maybe 1 archer and few warris (depends a bit on civ and very much on difficulty lvl).
Also dont splitt units and NEVER loose units (well maybe one when attacking a cap)

ones cities are 3 or more points stronger then your units conquering will be very hard

edit: tabernalk is 10 turns ahead of this scedule and, well, teching is same fast for everyone (dont have to be good to ..) so every1 should be able to get a army at turn 50 when other caps are small and easy to take

 

[Buccaneer]

From that you can infer only that he is mentally young.

Yes, as I have trouble even comprehending what he writes, especially the last post. Somehow there is a disconnect in the intelligence of playing Civ vs. being able to communicate that intelligence effectively, grammatically, spelling and coherence in a post. Perhaps English is not the primary language?

 

[BoomerSooner76]

Hello Tab, thank you for your help you did on my post. I have a question, will seem small to you but Im trying to get this technique of yours down to a art and havent quite done it with three days of trying. I will have many questions please if you have the time I would appreciate more help. My first question is I understand getting your Cap to 3 before starting on the settlers but after the settlers are done and you have your four cities founded is do you want to avoid growth at anytime due to unhappiness before you get your luxs worked? I know you dont want to go beyond -9 and Im having a hard time finding the thin line of not going over that. But im finding if I avoid growth to early its hurting me in the long run with Should I avoid growth at any time early in the game? If you do at some point when do you do it? When you start settlers it avoids the growth for you while they are building, should you keep pop at 3 for a time after settlers are done or let cities keep growing? Or let Cap keep growing and avoid growth on the other three?

Sorry thats like 7 questions mixed into one but they all pertain to the same thing, if Im coming off like I want you to hold my hand I apologize, I now have 150 hours played on Civ V and I have learned alot, but with what Ive learned I just get lost in other aspects of the game.

Thank you in advance

 

[Tabarnak]

Get your cap at 3 first. Try to find a natural wonder. This let you to grow your 2nd city at 2 before settling 3rd city. If not, try to settle on a mine lux to let this city grow or if your capital magically jumped to 4 from a ruin.

Get a lux tech that give you many unique luxs of that group after iron working but before writing. When you finish libraries, your cities will be at 2 or 3 with production micro(lock tiles when you reach that point). Let them grow after libraries. Build the NC in capital between turn 65 and 75. I sometimes build circuses before monuments and granaries if i can work horses in time. 4x cities eating , you need to feed them fast.

Prioritize luxuries and horses from workers ASAP. Faster you get them better you will be.

I continued my game for fun until education. I reached edu at turn 105. I built PT a turn later from HS and used a GS for Chichen Itza. My cities were at : 10(capital)-8-7-7-5-4 and was first in everything important(food, production, gold, military, science).

But most important is that 7-8 turns later 4 cities were producing GS and got over 150 bpt.

 

[BoomerSooner76]

Thank you for quick response that helps tremendously I know you pretty much said the exact same thing in OP but I couldnt figure it out until you just explained it there in more detail...*slaps forehead* Next question, do you normailly get the worker or the settler first from liberty? I can see the benefit of each going first, for example if YOU do have horses in cap plot should you go for worker first or always get settler first? Some games I havent even found the AI by the time second policy comes, but have two sets of two horses I can do, Ive also come across this and not finding any CS or am second to find and by the time second policy comes only have about 100g which is still a long ways from the 310 rush buy worker.

 

[Tabarnak]

Free settler before free worker. Free worker should land approximatively when you reach iron working. That's the beauty of this path.

For worker rush buy, you need to settle on a lux mine unless you are very lucky with ruins or Eldorado. It's hard to rush buy a worker and also upgrade 4 to 6 swords in time. That's why i propose to build a worker in 2nd or 3rd city when a warrior is done.

 

[peddroelm]

been toying more with this strategy lately ...

This strategy is tailor made for the french -> I can now see why they're banned from multiplayer games. Their early cultural advantage is insanely powerful ...
Even without building any monuments - they'll still be culturally ahead of any other civ. And all those saved can be diverted towards an extra scout and extra warriors//archers to better defend {the critical how do I survive before I get the swords up ? } and ready to upgrade when iron is connected ...


Even with a civ as overpowered as the French there are many problems that can appear on a deity game ...The problems are of such nature that I would dare say the 4 city opening fallowed by a capital conquest soon after iron tech is discovered is too rigid and would many times lead to failure.(it cannot generate success on most maps without further tweaking -adding some more flexibility)

A few pointers for understanding when this is applicable and when its best to fallow by a different transition into the late game.

Ex: problems

1. No viable target close enough -> closest scouted capital is too far from your own. Attempting to place a proxy city for attack would undoubtedly leave you in an unfavorable position .. (cities spread too far apart - impossible to defend on all fronts from multiple neighbors - troops and workers taking forever to move from one city to the next . YOU NEED TO KEEP YOUR YOUNG EMPIRE RELATIVELY COMPACT .... probably best bet in this case is try to get by with less military [will not go after a capital with swords] and focus on recouping science handicap ?

2. Too many early neighbors close to your capital. In one game I scouted Montezuma's and Harun's capital and decided to go for Harun (easier to capture). While moving the first settler for the proxy upgrade launch city -> was DOW-ed by Suleiman who I failed to scout and had his capital even closer than the other two - Montezuma soon joined the fun ...I did not die right away but when upgrade time came my warriors were spread among the map and I lacked the funds to upgrade them all ...(not enough workers - not enough gold ... too many early dows). Good scouting and City placement are essential to try and minimize the incoming early DOWS - build order should perhaps start with 2 scouts because of that ...This is hard to deal with - the early dows are almost guaranteed .. perhaps detour to archery - delay monuments get more troops up ? keep cities close (near ICS pattern) and try to roll weakest opponent after holding a push and getting iron ? (delayed conquest)

3. Sometimes everything seems to work right but the target keeps a large army near his capital after I settle proxy city. AND THEN TARGET GETS GREAT WALL ...Checkmate -happened to me twice so I guess it might not be a fluke - if they smell incoming aggression they might go for GW (and they get it before we can get Iron Working)...

4. Tried to sword rush Hiawatha - He dow-ed me first and rolled me with Mohawks before I got to improve iron and upgrade (~T47)

 

[Nouco]

Free settler before free worker. Free worker should land approximatively when you reach iron working. That's the beauty of this path.

For worker rush buy, you need to settle on a lux mine unless you are very lucky with ruins or Eldorado. It's hard to rush buy a worker and also upgrade 4 to 6 swords in time. That's why i propose to build a worker in 2nd or 3rd city when a warrior is done.

To be fair to Tommy, he goes Republic first and chooses after that the free worker...that is something new, isn't it?

Nice set up by the way Tabarnak ;-)

 

[Tabarnak]

To be fair to Tommy, he goes Republic first and chooses after that the free worker...that is something new, isn't it?

It can be powerful if you settle a city on a iron tile(preferably a 6 iron tile). If not, you might waiting too long for connecting iron. This gives you more hammers early on for a stronger rush. Best under duels.

Skirmish map can give you that opportunity. Though, a worker can chop a forest for 13 and do the same as 3 turns of republic policy with 4 cities. I like to get worker first and chop immediately a worker from capital.

Not really ''new'', just different optimizations. More tweaked strategies. I use the word ''new'' in another thread but it's more the word ''efficient'' i should have used.

 

[Tabarnak]

3rd policy is online, i pick Republic to grantly boost production.

Hmm my bad

You should read : 4th policy. Corrected.

 

[Monthar]

In the OP I see the research order and build order, but not the policy order. Could you update the OP to show the policy order?

 

[peddroelm]

One video that is somewhat related to this sword rush strategy is Maddjin's Rome LP

While the building order is vastly different than what tabarnak suggests here (2 city 6 sword rush [~T50] fallowed by a Liberty-Piety ICS pattern expand) some common key elements are nicely illustrated in this video

-EARLY scouting to get for upgrades (and establishes this is a starting position viable for a sword rush)
-6 warrior build up ready for upgrade in proxy city (Rome )
-moving in position around the border and getting the surround on the target city [its not a capital - but capital falls soon after ]
(Legions are strong enough, terrain was favorable so there was no need to waste instaheals ...)
-also important, it shows a viable fallow up-transition into the med game after the early aggression


Link to video.

Link to video.

* note the second video starts skipping 2 turns. the missing 2 turns are added at the end of the video { Actual start is at 30:28 in this video. It has the two missing&#65279; turns.}

 

[Tabarnak]

In the OP I see the research order and build order, but not the policy order. Could you update the OP to show the policy order?

Full Liberty :

Collective rule
Citizenship
Republic
Meritocracy
Representation

Added to OP.

(Edit : Added Policies, mid term options and long term options sub sections)

 

[pontias]

why do we go for animal husbandary first?