The Alphabet Trick

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't know why some people are semi-flaming the poster. Post your reasons, and leave it at that.

Actually, it's pretty frustrating when posters don't give (or simply don't have) answers to arguments but keep repeating their positions. That's exactly what the OP has done...in two different threads timed closely.

Most of the responses have been pretty civil, considering OP has yet to show any math or evidence that spamming warriors is a materially superior approach given the information available at turn 0. VoU ran math and showed worker first to be a material advantage in the other thread.

 

[Gumbolt]

Spam warriors = worker steal!! So we save some hammers here and can probably choke a nearby AI on Emperor or maybe immortal level.

Okay yes you will be limited on food/ resources.

Getting early settlers is not a bad idea. You don't have to settle them all so to preserve tech rates.

Lets just get a tech game on a pangea and try it. Which leader?? Ones that already start with wheel I would suggest?

 

[yatta77]

Eventually I decided to run the test anyways.

Note that it is about Alphabet and "not Worker" first, but I started building Settler first (instead of a Warrior).

Random standard settings, Immortal, playing India (starts without Technologies)...


...no Huts, no Events...


...Masonry (The Pyramids) >> Meditation >> Priesthood >> Writing >> Alphabet...


...1st City, Settler first...


...2880BC Writing research; Settler ready; 1st City: (Fast) Worker; 2nd City: Settler...


...2280BC Alphabet research; (Fast) Worker ready; 1st City: The Pyramids...


...2nd City: from Settler to Warrior, Warrior, Settler...


...2nd City: 2 Warrior + Settler ready, next another Settler*; 3rd City: Barracks*.
*(I could also build another (Fast) Worker, a Library, or a Warrior...).


I've been playing without working a single 3 tile until now (I am from now in the 3rd city).

And so far (turn 65 1400BC):
- 15 /turn;
- 4 turn away from Alphabet (Augustus Caesar is 5 away from Pottery);
- 18 turns away from The Pyramids;
- 3 cities.

Single session, first attempt, played the first map generated, no cheat, no reload. I'm ready to play the same opening on every other random map with any other leader and I believe the result will be about the same.
Start Game Save and 1400BC Game Save attached.

I don't even know if this is a good or bad start on Immortal standards*; and I'm not claiming it is a worth strategy: I simply think it has some logic.
*(and I'd like someone play 65 turn on the same map adopting another strategy to compare).

Greetings.
yatta.

 

[Bockwurst]

SIP and worker first until t65:

Build order: worker -> warrior -> warrior -> settler -> warrior -> settler -> pyramids (also a couple of turns in between while growing Dehli)

Research: Hunting -> AH -> Masonry (for Pyramids) -> Wheel (for connecting stone) -> writing -> alpha

Spoiler :

t65:

- 18 /t
- 9 turns to alpha
- 3 turns to the mids
- 3 cities

Dehli will build another settler to settle the c-site, worker in Bombay will mine the 2nd gold (monument already in place). The southern cities will run PHI + Rep scientists once workboats are in place. Not too bad prospects.

I think worse than not using workers for a long time is not using fast workers for a long time.

---
Never thought that my first post here would be about such a controversy

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

VoU ran math and showed worker first to be a material advantage in the other thread.

But for the wrong comparison. I'm not sure how I was supposed to know then that the desired comparison was "Worker First" vs "Worker Steal", or no worker techs at all for that matter.

 

[ben-jammin]

This could possibly work on certain starts with Huayna Cupac, because his UU is so ridiculously effective against the early AI. woodsman II would provide you all the workers you need.

But overall going for alphabet before you have bronze working is just giving up so much chop/whip production at the time when its most crucial that even if you somehow managed to save a bunch of beakers it wouldnt be worth it. IMO alphabet wont get you enough techs to have been worth not being able to benefit those techs for the first phase of expansion.

 

[yatta77]

SIP and worker first until t65:
- 18 /t
- 9 turns to alpha
- 3 turns to the mids
- 3 cities:

Thanks!
The stone didn't need road, since both (Stone and City) were on the same river, and 5 more turns to Alphabet might mean a little bit less power in first Tech Tradings, but:
you are basically correct: Worker first is the better option also trying to achieve what I usually want to achieve, so I just rest my case. I admit I was wrong. Issue resolved.
I'll keep your demo as a reference to obtain better results in the next game I play.

Never thought that my first post here would be about such a controversy :rolleyes

Well, welcome!
And thanks again for the time you spent to this test!
(btw, I just hope you won't judge me a stupid person just because I got to wrong conclusions in the best way to play a video game... )

EDIT: can you post the save?

yatta.

 

[ahcos]

Never thought that my first post here would be about such a controversy

Nice contribution, though. Welcome to CFC!

 

[Ghpstage]

The stone didn't need road, since both (Stone and City) were on the same river

Bockwurst settled in place rather than moving onto the riverside, as a result theres no direct river connection unlike in your save so the road was needed.

 

[NihilZero]

I settled on the stone.

Tech path Hunting -> AH -> Masonry -> Bronze Working -> Writing -> Alpha

Capital built Worker, warrior, Stonehenge p) for a while until the cows were improved, then settler, finished stonehenge, then built the 'Mids, then a settler, started a library.

Second city worked the sheep and produced a settler.

Turn 65, three cities, SH and Mids, 2 turns from Alpha and another settler ready to place a fourth city this turn or next, depending on whether you want fish or pigs. We have 25* beakers per turn and a settled great prophet.

Problem is, we have only met Augustus so I assume that when we get Alpha he won't trade us any techs! That kind of puts a downer on the whole Alpha thing. We might have been better served to get Agriculture and Fishing.




*should be 28 if I had adopted Representation upon building the 'mids. Going to all that trouble to build the pyramids and then not using them, tsk tsk. If I had done that we'd probably have Alphabet by now.

 

[vranasm]

nice show nihil I would have settled on the stone too. Actually now I don't need to replay it since
a) you already did the opening I would choose
b) I wouldn't probably post anything better

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Worker first is the better option also trying to achieve what I usually want to achieve, so I just rest my case. I admit I was wrong. Issue resolved.

What? You're going to roll over like that, without even moving the goal posts or complaining that you were taken out of context?

You completely fail at Internet.

(applause)

In anybody interested enough in the question to compare the two positions and clearly describe why this result happened?

 

[NihilZero]

nice show nihil I would have settled on the stone too. Actually now I don't need to replay it since
a) you already did the opening I would choose
b) I wouldn't probably post anything better

Although you probably would have remembered to switch to Representation for three extra beakers per turn, unlike me...

 

[Benginal]

I'm curious to see if any of you could try switching strategies. The three test games online are certainly interesting. But I think a problem is that Nihil is a miles better player than the first two posters.

So in the spirit of actually determining the impact solely of "worker build time" versus other such variables as "player skill" it becomes important for each player to do a few tests using the different strategies. So you guys have fun with that, .

 

[NihilZero]

I'm curious to see if any of you could try switching strategies. The three test games online are certainly interesting. But I think a problem is that Nihil is a miles better player than the first two posters.

So in the spirit of actually determining the impact solely of "worker build time" versus other such variables as "player skill" it becomes important for each player to do a few tests using the different strategies. So you guys have fun with that, .

Or one of the Deity lunatics experts could show us how it's really done...

 

[Bockwurst]

Thanks!
The stone didn't need road, since both (Stone and City) were on the same river, and 5 more turns to Alphabet might mean a little bit less power in first Tech Tradings

Ghpstage made the point.

Well, welcome!
And thanks again for the time you spent to this test!
(btw, I just hope you won't judge me a stupid person just because I got to wrong conclusions in the best way to play a video game... )

Thanks

Better you make wrong conclusions about playing a video game than about driving a car or voting

EDIT: can you post the save?

I had to replay it and made something different. It even looks slightly better now.

Spoiler :

@NihilZero
Nice approach. As I continued I managed to forget switching to Bureaucracy

 

[yatta77]

What? You're going to roll over like that, without even moving the goal posts or complaining that you were taken out of context?

I'm stubborn enough that if 10'000 people tell I'm wrong I don't believe them just because they say so, but I'm honest enough that if one single person proves I'm wrong I'll admit it.

So guys, next time, you know. Why spend 10'000 words, when one single showdown is enough?

Turn 65, three cities, SH and Mids, 2 turns from Alpha and another settler ready to place a fourth city this turn or next

Wow!
Well, thanks for spending your time, it is appreciated.
Thanks for the save as well.

@Bockwurst

Nice approach. As I continued I managed to forget switching to Bureaucracy

Continued?
Save please!
(the Stone issue is clear, thanks)

@vranasm
I'm glad my test is becoming somehow popular. It it's not a problem for you, and you have time and a creative idea to show, I'll be interested in other saves!

yatta.

 

[yatta77]

But I think a problem is that Nihil is a miles better player than the first two posters.

Well, true. Still I think it is not too polite to enter in a discussion just to point this out.
Not problem with me, but someone else made his first post trying to be helpful (and did was helpful for me), and you instead of welcome you tell is far away from another player. Happy you...

Sincerly.
yatta.

 

[sadmachines]

@yatta

You still built a worker after the settler, right? Maybe I misunderstood but I thought the point was to avoid building them until alphabet arrives. What are the 'rules' here?

 

[vranasm]

one problem I see here we don't know what is the real challenge here...

is it the soonest Alpha date?
or to play without workers except for worker steals (doesn't work here completely)?

maybe the former has sense ... earliest Alpha date then...