Hadrean
Hi, how are you?
I totaly agree This was my 2nd favorite in CIV3.
Well now it's 100 bloomin' pages
The Ancient Mediterranean MOD
- Thread starter thamis
- Start date
Well now it's 100 bloomin' pages
Ingvina Freyr
wants a Steamfree option
Regarding research towards religion: May I suggest that Kolchis get points towards Olympian Gods, since there are already seven civs in the Animism group. Also, should the Medes perhaps get a chance on Mesopotamian Gods as well as Zoroastrianism, just like Persia?
Ingvina Freyr
wants a Steamfree option
Thamis, have you considered reintroducing the Berbers/Imazighen? The western part of the map is not as crowded as the east, and IMHO there is something "missing" in northern Africa as well as in Iberia. One suggestion would be to divide Iberia between the Lusitans in the west and the Iberians in the east/southeast, but two Iberian civs perhaps doesn't match their impact on ancient history. However, there is both room and reason for the Imazighen I think. (Wouldn't involve too much work adding them, or...?)
Edit: Most of the work is already done for Tam Civ3, and if you think it's a good idea I can do whatever background work that needs to be done.
Edit: Most of the work is already done for Tam Civ3, and if you think it's a good idea I can do whatever background work that needs to be done.
thamis
King of Kish
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2002
- Messages
- 1,583
Yea, I was thinking of that. The problem is the 18 civs per map limitation. But yes, it's a good idea. I would rather include the Lusitans though, because Iberia needs to become weaker (it was never powerful), while Carthage is supposed to be powerful but just needs to be toned down a little bit.
If we put Luistans, Iberia will be more crowded and they'll settle over to N Africa before Carthage gets there. That way, I think we can approximate the historical power balance better.
If we put Luistans, Iberia will be more crowded and they'll settle over to N Africa before Carthage gets there. That way, I think we can approximate the historical power balance better.
Ingvina Freyr
wants a Steamfree option
Sounds very good to me! Right now there is only 15 civs on the map so there is room for more in that sense too. I did some research on the peoples of ancient Iberia and I think that renaming Viriatos civ to Lusitans and moving their starting postition to the west and adding the Iberian-speaking tribes in the southeast would be the best solution, considering the look of the map and room for expansion. (I guess Spirit Viriato knows everything about these things. Is he still around?)
I'd just like to take a break from my busy schedule to congratulates you guys, TAM has grown quite a bit. Awesome job! I unfortunately don't have much time anymore to help out, but I still find time to play TAM a bit here and there =) I have a small list of ideas/balance changes, I'll try to post them soon since I'll be on vacation in 2 weeks and I hope to have some free time then.
Congrats again everyone.
Congrats again everyone.
Hypnotoad
Prince
This is an awesome Mod -- thanks guys. I'm finishing an Immortal game as the Phonecians in which I took over Thebes very early in the game (and then played peacefully). I haven't read all the posts (not even close), but I thought I would make some observations:
I'm finding it much harder to acheive a cultural win than in the regular game. I'm not entirely sure why this is -- clearly one reason is that I can't make cathedrals for more than a couple religions in each city. But I've still acheived 1000 culture/turn with only 2 religions on Emperor difficulty and without the cultural slider. Now I have the cultural slider at 100% (no science to research) and my top three cities are generating 400-750. But perhaps more significant, before I turned up the slider, it was more around 300. This means my base culture is really low and I'm just sitting around at the end of the game with nothing to do in all my cities, waiting for their culture to build up. In Civ 4 normally the end of the culture game has a bit more tension. I'm a bit worried about your plans to change the cathedrals if, as I understood it, they don't all increase culture. (I have about 3/4rds of the Wonders including all of the ones that increase a percentage of culture.)
Would it be possible to have some Future Tech-esque technologies? I find in the normal Civ 4 I normally hit these and without them, I find it does distract from the game (and more so given the speed you hit them in this game). Perhaps something like: Monastic studies (+5% culture/turn), Military Theory (+1 Exp/all units, expensive), Liberal Arts (+1 Happy).
I would also love to see a larger map that has Persia, Medes and perhaps Nubia. And I'd like to see a map with goodie huts in the location of minor civs. On the topic of Maps, I strongly suggest The Times Atlas of World History -- I think it might help on a few details of this amazing map.
This is just meant in the spirit of feedback. I greatly appreciate all of your work!
-- The Hypnotoad
I'm finding it much harder to acheive a cultural win than in the regular game. I'm not entirely sure why this is -- clearly one reason is that I can't make cathedrals for more than a couple religions in each city. But I've still acheived 1000 culture/turn with only 2 religions on Emperor difficulty and without the cultural slider. Now I have the cultural slider at 100% (no science to research) and my top three cities are generating 400-750. But perhaps more significant, before I turned up the slider, it was more around 300. This means my base culture is really low and I'm just sitting around at the end of the game with nothing to do in all my cities, waiting for their culture to build up. In Civ 4 normally the end of the culture game has a bit more tension. I'm a bit worried about your plans to change the cathedrals if, as I understood it, they don't all increase culture. (I have about 3/4rds of the Wonders including all of the ones that increase a percentage of culture.)
Would it be possible to have some Future Tech-esque technologies? I find in the normal Civ 4 I normally hit these and without them, I find it does distract from the game (and more so given the speed you hit them in this game). Perhaps something like: Monastic studies (+5% culture/turn), Military Theory (+1 Exp/all units, expensive), Liberal Arts (+1 Happy).
I would also love to see a larger map that has Persia, Medes and perhaps Nubia. And I'd like to see a map with goodie huts in the location of minor civs. On the topic of Maps, I strongly suggest The Times Atlas of World History -- I think it might help on a few details of this amazing map.
This is just meant in the spirit of feedback. I greatly appreciate all of your work!
-- The Hypnotoad
Hypnotoad
Prince
I just thought I'd throw in a vote for keeping the religions open to anyone -- it is alternate history, afterall. Plus, I think it would just be more fun to be able to found a number of religions yourself.
-- Hypnotoad
-- Hypnotoad
Hypnotoad
Prince
For reducing the speed of tech development, would it make sense to weaken Aristocracy a bit? It is incredibly powerful. 2 extra trade routes! That alone is a huge boost to science (through commerce). Then when you add the +commerce in your capital... I built Plato's Academy there once I saw that. And, well, nothing was more than 7 turns to research and most were 1-3.
I actually don't know of much of a connection between aristocracy and trade (could be my ignorance). Strange for it to be greater than free market. What if it did something like added 2 specialists to your capital and 1 to your three largest cities. After all, Aristocracy is all about the rule of the best...
-- Hypnotoad
I actually don't know of much of a connection between aristocracy and trade (could be my ignorance). Strange for it to be greater than free market. What if it did something like added 2 specialists to your capital and 1 to your three largest cities. After all, Aristocracy is all about the rule of the best...
-- Hypnotoad
Shqype
Shqyptar
We'll probably be increasing tech costs an additional 10% (maybe) but in the meantime for the new version we have lowered the Palace commerce.
Hypnotoad, can you give me the number of culture in your top 3 cities at the end of your game? Please give me the amount out of the total needed to achieve a cultural victory
Hypnotoad, can you give me the number of culture in your top 3 cities at the end of your game? Please give me the amount out of the total needed to achieve a cultural victory
Hypnotoad
Prince
Okay, so I just finished the game, winning a cultural victory in 427 AD. I stopped researching sometime around 210 (had great book and one other left to research, I researched them eventually with 0% science). It turns out I was playing on Emperor.
Here’s just the data you wanted for the last turn (out of 50,000 needed to win):
Tyre: 61,170
Berytus: 52,641
Thebes: 49861
Here is more detailed information for 427 AD:
Tyre: 61,170 (1029 Culture/Turn)
Commerce: 194 (100% culture, Capital with Aristocracy))
Production: 4
Specialists: 80 (5 great artists)
Religion: 2
Buildings: 63 (Sphinx, Colossus, Plato’s Academy, Hanging Gardens)
Buildings: +100%/ Civics +100%
Berytus: 52,641 (720/turn)
Commerce: 105
Production: 2
Specialists: 60 (including 2 great artists)
Religion: 6
Buildings: 67 (Wonders: Church of the Nativity, National Epic, Genius of Archimedes, Aristotelean Theater, Parthenon, Great Library)
Buildings: +100%/ Civics +100%
Thebes: 49861 (including one 4,000 boost) (I forgot to record per turn. Having just built the Zoroastrian Cathedral, it was around 800)
Commerce: 105
Production: 8
Specialists: 24 (no great artists – this started as the power house)
Religion: 11
Buildings: 83 (Agora, Zoroastrian Shrine, Druidic Shrine, Circus Maximus, Oracle of Dodona, Great Ziggurnat, Temple of Artemis, Golgatha
Buildings: +135%/ Civics +100%
And here is the basic data in 360:
Tyre: 29,697 (780/turn – later build Christian Cathedral and add artists)
Berytus: 26,259 (666/turn)
Thebes: 23,370 (423/turn – later build Circus Maximus, Agora, Zoroastrian Cathedral)
Final Score: 15,600 or so
-- Hypnotoad
Edit: for comparison, on Ryhe's world map on Emperor I normally finish around 1650 or so right at about the end of the tech tree.
Here’s just the data you wanted for the last turn (out of 50,000 needed to win):
Tyre: 61,170
Berytus: 52,641
Thebes: 49861
Here is more detailed information for 427 AD:
Tyre: 61,170 (1029 Culture/Turn)
Commerce: 194 (100% culture, Capital with Aristocracy))
Production: 4
Specialists: 80 (5 great artists)
Religion: 2
Buildings: 63 (Sphinx, Colossus, Plato’s Academy, Hanging Gardens)
Buildings: +100%/ Civics +100%
Berytus: 52,641 (720/turn)
Commerce: 105
Production: 2
Specialists: 60 (including 2 great artists)
Religion: 6
Buildings: 67 (Wonders: Church of the Nativity, National Epic, Genius of Archimedes, Aristotelean Theater, Parthenon, Great Library)
Buildings: +100%/ Civics +100%
Thebes: 49861 (including one 4,000 boost) (I forgot to record per turn. Having just built the Zoroastrian Cathedral, it was around 800)
Commerce: 105
Production: 8
Specialists: 24 (no great artists – this started as the power house)
Religion: 11
Buildings: 83 (Agora, Zoroastrian Shrine, Druidic Shrine, Circus Maximus, Oracle of Dodona, Great Ziggurnat, Temple of Artemis, Golgatha
Buildings: +135%/ Civics +100%
And here is the basic data in 360:
Tyre: 29,697 (780/turn – later build Christian Cathedral and add artists)
Berytus: 26,259 (666/turn)
Thebes: 23,370 (423/turn – later build Circus Maximus, Agora, Zoroastrian Cathedral)
Final Score: 15,600 or so
-- Hypnotoad
Edit: for comparison, on Ryhe's world map on Emperor I normally finish around 1650 or so right at about the end of the tech tree.
Shqype
Shqyptar
So then you did win a cultural victory and it is possible?
Hypnotoad
Prince
Shqype said:
Yes. Sorry if my post was unclear -- I said is that it is much harder, not that it is impossible. I'm not even sure if it is a bad thing, but I thought it would be worth mentioning since it seems a lot more difficult.
I would love to see a victory condition like the Space victory only something more... ancient. Perhaps diplomatic contact with China (need to build boats, diplomats, adventurers, map despositories, research the typhoons, etc.) Something that never happened but perhaps could have...
Some nit picking about the map: probably the biggest thing I've noticed on the map is some strangeness in the placement of wheat. The north (especially north west) part of the black sea was an important source of wheat, as well as the Nile, Sicily and Africa. I would think it would make more sense to put the wheat in the Nile and the fruit to the west of the Nile. Also, silk from China was quite important. Would it make sense to put it on the eastern edge of the map? That could simulate connecting to the silk route.
Of course, I understand that game play should take precedent, but I thought I'd make some suggestions in case they could be incorporated without harming game play.
-- Hypnotoad
Shqype
Shqyptar
Thanks for your suggestions.
I am pretty happy with the difficulty in gaining a cultural victory. I personally feel that is a pretty cheap way to win, so I'de rather have it available only near the very end of the game. Some people have complained in the past that it is impossible, but we fixed it to make it possible (although difficult), so that seems to be made according to plan.
I am pretty happy with the difficulty in gaining a cultural victory. I personally feel that is a pretty cheap way to win, so I'de rather have it available only near the very end of the game. Some people have complained in the past that it is impossible, but we fixed it to make it possible (although difficult), so that seems to be made according to plan.
thamis
King of Kish
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2002
- Messages
- 1,583
Regarding the space race victory:
We'll be creating the Silk Road, such as in TAM Civ3. In order to win, you have to build caravans that discover a certain section of the silk road. Once you have them all, you can "launch" your great caravan.
Regarding cultural victory:
I think we should make it slightly easier to win it. I suggest we increase culture of some buildings by 1. But not for version 1.9, we'll stick to the changes we made.
We'll be creating the Silk Road, such as in TAM Civ3. In order to win, you have to build caravans that discover a certain section of the silk road. Once you have them all, you can "launch" your great caravan.
Regarding cultural victory:
I think we should make it slightly easier to win it. I suggest we increase culture of some buildings by 1. But not for version 1.9, we'll stick to the changes we made.
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