The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[Shqype]

- Getae (Decebalus)
- Kolchis (Aeetes)
- Illyria (Teuta)

No idea, three weird states.

[Making a smart move by not commenting].

kwarriorpoet and Seven05, I find your observations quite useful.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I have one strong view on the civ traits: from what I know about the ancient world, the Greeks should really be financial. Greek was the trade language in the eastern med for at least the last 6 decades of the game. Many of their settlments in the 6th and 7th Century BC were set up for trade reasons (along with population pressure).

Financial also helps explain how a relatively small population excelled so much in artistic and intellectual realms: the Greeks were relatively prosperous and turned this towards artistic and intellectual tasks.

As someone said, the Greeks (as the AI) don't fare that well in the game right now. This might help.

Edit: as for seafaring, two ideas: a free promotion for sea units to withdraw 1 (which leads to a number of promotion options, I think), or some sort of sea-based settler (I still really like this idea -- there should be some easy way to settle by sea, just as originally happened).

Oh, I thought I would also say that in my latest game there were practically no wars except those declared against me.

-- Hypnotoad

 

[Col.D]

Just a quick question. When (if you do) will the team start another mod/scenario? This is an amazing mod and scenario and I think if when it's done another mod would be even better seeing as you'd be more experience.

Thanks for the mod Ive had hours of gaming with it. Trying Greeks again now, I won't quit after the 1st go

 

[Shqype]

I have one strong view on the civ traits: from what I know about the ancient world, the Greeks should really be financial. Greek was the trade language in the eastern med for at least the last 6 decades of the game. Many of their settlments in the 6th and 7th Century BC were set up for trade reasons (along with population pressure).

Financial also helps explain how a relatively small population excelled so much in artistic and intellectual realms: the Greeks were relatively prosperous and turned this towards artistic and intellectual tasks.

As someone said, the Greeks (as the AI) don't fare that well in the game right now. This might help.

Edit: as for seafaring, two ideas: a free promotion for sea units to withdraw 1 (which leads to a number of promotion options, I think), or some sort of sea-based settler (I still really like this idea -- there should be some easy way to settle by sea, just as originally happened).

Oh, I thought I would also say that in my latest game there were practically no wars except those declared against me.

-- Hypnotoad

I agree with making the Greeks Financial. We'll rework this for v2.0 the latest.

 

[schlappi]

I agree with making the Greeks Financial. We'll rework this for v2.0 the latest.

Not only this, they need to be upped in some other way as well.
Playing them on emperor with agressive AI is virtually impossible; the sceme is always the same - Kroisos declares war, gets repelled and his fleet destroyed, but then he refuses peace until your beloved Teuta declares war and does me in without opportunity to buy time by gifting gold and resources!

They at least need some timber near their starting position...

 

[Shqype]

Not only this, they need to be upped in some other way as well.
Playing them on emperor with agressive AI is virtually impossible; the sceme is always the same - Kroisos declares war, gets repelled and his fleet destroyed, but then he refuses peace until your beloved Teuta declares war and does me in without opportunity to buy time by gifting gold and resources!

They at least need some timber near their starting position...

This almost happened in real life as well, had the Romans not interfered
Try gaining Allies.

 

[thamis]

Smithies grant great engineers? If that's true then I really have been missing something. Thank you for the tip. I hadn't been building them until I was close to iron working.

No, but they allow you to use the engineer specialist, which in turn gives +3 GP points per turn towards great engineer.

 

[thamis]

Not only this, they need to be upped in some other way as well.
Playing them on emperor with agressive AI is virtually impossible; the sceme is always the same - Kroisos declares war, gets repelled and his fleet destroyed, but then he refuses peace until your beloved Teuta declares war and does me in without opportunity to buy time by gifting gold and resources!

They at least need some timber near their starting position...

I do agree that we should improve their land with 1 or 2 extra resources. I would suggest 1 extra wine and 1 extra timber, wine in Peleponesos and timber in northern Greece / Thessaly.

The Greeks should be strong even if played by the AI. In most games they end up in the mid-range only.

 

[thamis]

Another thought:

How about giving "barbarian" civilizations only 1 trait, while the others get 2. We've already done this with starting technologies, but considering that Gaul, Germanics, Iberia, Illyria, and Kolchis regularly end up in the top scores, it might be a good idea.

Oh, and Shqype: I know that you've got problems with Illyria being called "barbarian", but you know what I mean... they had no huge empire like Greece or Rome did.

 

[Shqype]

I know.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I've had luck with the Greeks on immortal. Try getting hoplites right away and conquering your northern neighbors (Kolchis, right?). I waited until their second city was big enough that I could take it without destroying it... With hoplites early on, this shouldn't be hard. Then I played peacefully.

I think the Greeks should definitely be financial and philosophical. And I'd like their leader to be Solon on some other great Athenian statesman...

On a separate note: has anyone noticed that the ancients seem pretty bad at placing cities? I've found that often you can look and see that there is a better spot available (and if you know the map, you almost always know there is a better one):

Lydians: One spot West (two extra bonuses, if I recall correctly)
Phonecians: Move down to be on the river (this is crucial if you are playing on a high difficulty level -- otherwise you start with sickness/a green face)
Egyptians: for an interesting game, move up/right two and then settle on the coast. Naval power! Great locations for your other cities.
Carthage: move down one. You get marble and Ivory.

Babylonians are about the only ones whose starting position I've been happy with.

 

[Seven05]

Mmm... Greek stuff, I play them a lot. If you can destroy the Illyrians quickly it's a relatively easy early game. If you want to make them a bit "easier" in the early game I would suggest a couple of minor changes.

First, the aggressive trait is about the only thing that really saves them early in the game. If you can beeline through copper working and mining your hoplites will be unstoppable with the +20% combined bonus. Even if you can't get a smithy up and running quickly enough the Combat 1 promotion and easy access to the cover promotion is a life saver.

They can't be played peacefully which is why the AI always "fails" with them. Kroisos is only a threat because you are his closest opponent, he never seems to go for anyone else until later in the game and then he heads north, never south or east (not that I've seen anyway).

If the Illyrians beat you to what should be your second city in the hills to the north you're doomed. If you build a worker first while researching woodworking so you can chop a settler right away you can beat them most of the time. Sometimes you get lucky and even though they get their settler out first they don't come south.

So what would help them...

Starting with pastoralism would make the sheep accessible quicker, that would be a big help. Perhaps replacing one of the olive resources with fruit would help too. Although honestly with them as they are right now money is never really a problem, neither is health it's happiness that gives me the most trouble.

Immediately northeast of the starting tile is a plains (forest), changing that to grasslands would help with gowth, changing one of the grassland hills in the west to a plains hills in exchange should work well.

They have great trade potential with the extra olives, extra sheep (x3 extra if you play it right), extra clams and extra fish. Changing any of those may provide a quick boost but will hurt trade in the long run.

There are several "wasted" tiles west of the starting point as well, not big enough for a city (although the AI frequently puts one there anyway) and with no resources. Perhaps an extra fish/clam or even a crab over there would make a western coastal city more useful since it would have more growth potential.

Some other possible boosts would be a bit of "pre-research" like you did with the religion techs. Copper working would be a big help, so would animal husbandry as those are pretty slow techs early on. Giving the immediate neighbors some added animosity with other neightbors at the start of the scenario may help prevent them from crippling the AI Greeks so easily.

The greek hoplite only has 1 extra strength point which makes it a comparitively weak UU, particular against the Kambsor. If they loose their aggressive trait they should still start their hoplites with a free combat 1 promotion and another small bonus wouldn't hurt, or even a slightly reduced production cost instead.

 

[Shqype]

Mmm... Greek stuff, I play them a lot. If you can destroy the Illyrians quickly it's a relatively easy early game. If you want to make them a bit "easier" in the early game I would suggest a couple of minor changes.

First, the aggressive trait is about the only thing that really saves them early in the game. If you can beeline through copper working and mining your hoplites will be unstoppable with the +20% combined bonus. Even if you can't get a smithy up and running quickly enough the Combat 1 promotion and easy access to the cover promotion is a life saver.

They can't be played peacefully which is why the AI always "fails" with them. Kroisos is only a threat because you are his closest opponent, he never seems to go for anyone else until later in the game and then he heads north, never south or east (not that I've seen anyway).

If the Illyrians beat you to what should be your second city in the hills to the north you're doomed. If you build a worker first while researching woodworking so you can chop a settler right away you can beat them most of the time. Sometimes you get lucky and even though they get their settler out first they don't come south.

So what would help them...

Starting with pastoralism would make the sheep accessible quicker, that would be a big help. Perhaps replacing one of the olive resources with fruit would help too. Although honestly with them as they are right now money is never really a problem, neither is health it's happiness that gives me the most trouble.

Immediately northeast of the starting tile is a plains (forest), changing that to grasslands would help with gowth, changing one of the grassland hills in the west to a plains hills in exchange should work well.

They have great trade potential with the extra olives, extra sheep (x3 extra if you play it right), extra clams and extra fish. Changing any of those may provide a quick boost but will hurt trade in the long run.

There are several "wasted" tiles west of the starting point as well, not big enough for a city (although the AI frequently puts one there anyway) and with no resources. Perhaps an extra fish/clam or even a crab over there would make a western coastal city more useful since it would have more growth potential.

Some other possible boosts would be a bit of "pre-research" like you did with the religion techs. Copper working would be a big help, so would animal husbandry as those are pretty slow techs early on. Giving the immediate neighbors some added animosity with other neightbors at the start of the scenario may help prevent them from crippling the AI Greeks so easily.

The greek hoplite only has 1 extra strength point which makes it a comparitively weak UU, particular against the Kambsor. If they loose their aggressive trait they should still start their hoplites with a free combat 1 promotion and another small bonus wouldn't hurt, or even a slightly reduced production cost instead.

The Greeks were never warmongers to warrant such a powerful UU.

 

[Jet]

Hey, I made a few changes to your map and we will include it in the next version if you're happy with it.
The changes are:
- Added flatlands in Rome starting position
- Removed horses near Rome
- Removed double resources in Portugal
- Added some more plains & grass in Libya (for historial accuracy)

Thanks for the interest. With these changes or others, it's cool with me if you use your own judgement in editing the map the way you'd like it for inclusion in the mod. But I'm happy to discuss it.

spoiler warning: map details and balance information

My discussion of map balance here will be very cautious, because although whenever I made changes I ran Game.AIPlay tests and carefully watched the effect on balance, that's very time-consuming, and I assume you won't want to do it. I might be able to run some prior to the next release if you'd like.

If the reason to remove the Rome horses is historical flavor, I agree. Good idea. On the other hand, removing that horses and that plains hill would have a balance effect. Currently on average Rome is around the middle, maybe 4th place. Also, even if geographically that tile is better described as flat, the hills go with Rome's foundation legend. So to balance removing the horses, you might try leaving the capitol plot as a plains hill and either putting clay on it, or moving the nearby iron one tile east; I think the AI rarely builds a city where it can work that iron anyway.

Collectively the two copper, one silver, and one tin in Iberia are supposed to represent Rio Tinto. Instead of removing one copper and relocating the other, I'd suggest removing the iron immediately to the north, although doing so would hurt Rome and Gaul a small bit. I didn't have a specific historical reason for that iron. My understanding of the historical flavor of metals is common iron, fairly common copper, and rare tin. I put copper and tin (and silver and gold) in places that I found references to. For iron I didn't use any references except for the irons NW of Rome and in Sardinia, which together are supposed to represent Elba.

The deeper coast in Libya does indeed look closer to the standard map; maybe it could be even more so by adding plains SW and S-SW of the flax. Now, Egypt is on average the strongest civ on this map, and while I don't mind that Egypt is on top, I would be very cautious about changing the terrain in a way that helps it any more. But since you removed an oasis, I think what you did might maintain balance. Except for the 5-food grassland-floodplains in the Nile delta, which I imagine was an oversight.

My impression was that the goods that were valued like a spice or incense all came from the East. I think I saw them cited as helping to make Phoenicia rich, for example. Were you thinking of something historical with that incense you put in SW Libya?

 

[Tiger3416]

I just downloaded the mod a few days ago and it is great. I love ancient warfare in fact I am a grad. student in ancient history and this mod is more historically accurate then I ever dreamed of seeing. Thanks for making such a great mod and keep up the great work!

The Greeks were never warmongers to warrant such a powerful UU.

Ever heard of the Spartans or Alexander the Great... The Greeks invented western warfare as we know it today, with relatively small, but well trained and armored forces. The Greeks where always out numbered when fighting foreign armies, but they almost always won as well. Alexander marched through the Persian Empire with only around 40,000 men. In my opinion the Greek Hoplite should be very strong, but very expensive. This would reflect how they where in reality.

But thanks again for the great mod!

 

[Pvblivs]

Ah, I forgot to mention one thing:

In the ancient times, pretty much all empires were very war-like. There weren't any peacenicks around. Thus, I suggest removing the Aggressive trait, and replacing it with something else. I would suggest Seafaring... now what boni would that give?

I would not remove the aggressive trait. Even if a weaker barbarian civ is technologically behind through the aggressive trait we can control their military success.

Now on Seafaring: Faster ship movement (free flanking promotion, +1 movement would be tooo powerful). Harbours give +1 commerce per worked sea tile. Faster production of harbours and lighthouses.

Seafaring civs would be: Greece (do not remove creative: great culture), Carthage (instead of organized), Phoenicia (should be seafaring and like expansive)

 

[Pvblivs]

I agree with making the Greeks Financial. We'll rework this for v2.0 the latest.

Rather make them seafaring. If harbours give commerce +1 for sea tiles, that will be the same as greece is very sea-oriented. I would rather make them creative to reflect their cultural power.

Concerning this discussion I would propose to add the possibility for 3 traits:

Really great winners or "could-very-likely-have-been-winners" of the ancient age should get 3 traits. That is Rome, Greece, Carthage. Any other? Barbarian civs (like Germania, Gaul, Scythia, Iberia etc.) get 1 trait, the rest 2.

Thus Greece could be seafaring, financial and creative. Carthage like Greece but instead of creative organized and Rome financial in addition to expansive and organized (which are great traits for Rome).

What do you think?

 

[Waterloo]

Hi,

the Mod works perfectly on my laptop, but at my desktop it's just a mess.
When the screen opens, where to choose the difficulty there is just no text, when going on (by now I know what should have been there), the city line is messed up and when choosing production for a city there is no text either just the icons.
I already deinstalled the whole game, deleting all old mods, installed new with patch 1.61 again and installed the newest graphic driver.

The original game worked just fine.

Any ideas how I can fix this?

Thanks,
Waterloo

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

Regarding Illyria and Greece: The same thing happens in all my games; Teuta blocks greek expansion to the north, and by the time open borders can be signed all lands are "taken" wich leaves Agamemnon ruler of a tiny little kingdom at the bottom of the scorelist. Since Illyria and Greece always share religion no wars has ever been waged between them, despite their close borders. In southern Italy two or three colonies are always established before the Romans get there wich IMO would be perfect if they were Greek or Carthaginian settlements and not Illyrian.
My suggestion is to remove, at least, one of the two timber-resources next to Skodra; timber 38,24, and perhaps also fish 38,25 or cow 38,26.
Instead of pumping the Greeks full of testosteron and steroids (many resources) i would like to see what happens if they get to start with two settlers. Maybe that would make the AI act out history, wich IMO is a good thing.

 

[thamis]

Here are the reasons for the changes:

- Rome was never big on horses, so they shouldn't get them straight away.
- Rome is usually a weaker civ in TAM, so we should always give them a nice starting position so they can get a top civ
- I changed the Iberian metals because too many metals in one place is unbalancing. A city there would be an über-production city.
- The floodplains-grassland is an oversight. I didn't know that you can even have floodplains on grassland.
- The incense I put in... well... dunno why?

If you want to, you can make more changes to the map. If you don't, I can make them, using your suggestions here.

Thanks for the interest. With these changes or others, it's cool with me if you use your own judgement in editing the map the way you'd like it for inclusion in the mod. But I'm happy to discuss it.

spoiler warning: map details and balance information

My discussion of map balance here will be very cautious, because although whenever I made changes I ran Game.AIPlay tests and carefully watched the effect on balance, that's very time-consuming, and I assume you won't want to do it. I might be able to run some prior to the next release if you'd like.

If the reason to remove the Rome horses is historical flavor, I agree. Good idea. On the other hand, removing that horses and that plains hill would have a balance effect. Currently on average Rome is around the middle, maybe 4th place. Also, even if geographically that tile is better described as flat, the hills go with Rome's foundation legend. So to balance removing the horses, you might try leaving the capitol plot as a plains hill and either putting clay on it, or moving the nearby iron one tile east; I think the AI rarely builds a city where it can work that iron anyway.

Collectively the two copper, one silver, and one tin in Iberia are supposed to represent Rio Tinto. Instead of removing one copper and relocating the other, I'd suggest removing the iron immediately to the north, although doing so would hurt Rome and Gaul a small bit. I didn't have a specific historical reason for that iron. My understanding of the historical flavor of metals is common iron, fairly common copper, and rare tin. I put copper and tin (and silver and gold) in places that I found references to. For iron I didn't use any references except for the irons NW of Rome and in Sardinia, which together are supposed to represent Elba.

The deeper coast in Libya does indeed look closer to the standard map; maybe it could be even more so by adding plains SW and S-SW of the flax. Now, Egypt is on average the strongest civ on this map, and while I don't mind that Egypt is on top, I would be very cautious about changing the terrain in a way that helps it any more. But since you removed an oasis, I think what you did might maintain balance. Except for the 5-food grassland-floodplains in the Nile delta, which I imagine was an oversight.

My impression was that the goods that were valued like a spice or incense all came from the East. I think I saw them cited as helping to make Phoenicia rich, for example. Were you thinking of something historical with that incense you put in SW Libya?