The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[Shqype]

No man, don't get me wrong, I'm sorry if that post came out as "aggressive" or something. I like you and I appreciate your knowledge I'm not knocking you or anything, I was just curious. Look to my PM for more info.

 

[Pvblivs]

The inquisition did not exist in the ancient times, and it shouldn't belong to TAM. What you describe is a particular situation that does not relate to religion in the way that inquisition does. Christians were persecuted because more than a cult, theirs was seen as a "order" whos aim was to destabilize power. Don't forget that the ancient polytheist religions were used to justify decisions taken by mortal rulers, sort of a control over public opinion. "Mars said that we should make war to Carthage" Christ didn't exactly preach things that married roman philosophy... so him and his successors were seen as rebels , or modern terrorists. But otherwise, there was pretty much a freedom of religion throughout the roman empire, for example if you visit Pompei you will see a temple dedicated to an egyptian god. Also, outside the roman empire I don't know of episodes of religion persecutions...

As I said: There was no "inquisition" in ancient times. Your right as well. But there has been religious persecution.

Why? Because Rome feared Christianity could destabilize their system. Isn't this the whole point about religious persecutions in history? It was all about gaining power, trying to keep power, eliminating those who try to seize or endanger your power etc. Isn't this the whole thing about war as well?

But I would be fine with it: The mod is interesting enough without it. There's no need for religious persecutions in TAM, if you define religion in ancient times not important enough (because clashes of religions actually didn't play that role). But then there should be no need for a religious victory as well. If there's nothing to fight about, there should be nothing to win.

 

[Drogear]

I hope this religous inquisition debate is not embedded in the mod (yet atleast). I think there is more importen issues to attend before something like this that feels rater uninportent atm.

 

[Drogear]

One of the major things that bug me is the tilt improvements that swamp every single tilt later on in the game. I know that worker improvements where made more time-consuming but this will not keep the map from beeing completely overworked later on.

Looking at ancient maps and games such as Rome total war you cant see roads on every part on the land, hills or windmills on every single hill and so on.

On complicated workaround would be programming worker actions to be linked with a gold cost, for ex a stretch of road would cost 1-5 gold to produce and so on.

Or like with the northern forest some tilts might be “unworkable” to attain a better historical feel for the game.

Both are time-consuming, and perhaps impossible to implement. Just my 2c

 

[Mesix]

One of the major things that bug me is the tilt improvements that swamp every single tilt later on in the game. I know that worker improvements where made more time-consuming but this will not keep the map from beeing completely overworked later on.

Looking at ancient maps and games such as Rome total war you cant see roads on every part on the land, hills or windmills on every single hill and so on.

On complicated workaround would be programming worker actions to be linked with a gold cost, for ex a stretch of road would cost 1-5 gold to produce and so on.

Or like with the northern forest some tilts might be “unworkable” to attain a better historical feel for the game.

Both are time-consuming, and perhaps impossible to implement. Just my 2c

Another work around would be to reduce the numner of tiles that are worked by each city. This could be accomplished by either limiting the growth of each city or allowing more than one worker to work an improved tile.

While we are on the suybject of workers and tile improvements, there is something that I noticed and never brought up before. Why do workers not build cottages in this mod? The option is there, but if you automate a worker they will never build a cotage. The AI does not build them either. In vanila it seems like every tile was turned into a cottage (and later a town etc.). Has the usefulness of the cottage improvement been dumbed down for this mod?

 

[Drogear]

one more solution would be to make workers "uniqe" and only alowing 1-3 workes per civ. This would force the player and AI to use the workers wisly and for example only building roads where they are needed and not on every singel tilt.

This one is my own personal favorite of the 3 solutions I presented for the "Tilt spam problem". Dunno how it affects the AI.

 

[Drogear]

On cottage subject, Im not sure I like them. They way I see them is extentions of cities (suburbs). For the most time I make cottage in every grassland tilt. This makes the impression of a very larg city ranging a vastyl greater area than the historical cities would.

 

[onedreamer]

As I said: There was no "inquisition" in ancient times. Your right as well. But there has been religious persecution.

Why? Because Rome feared Christianity could destabilize their system. Isn't this the whole point about religious persecutions in history? It was all about gaining power, trying to keep power, eliminating those who try to seize or endanger your power etc. Isn't this the whole thing about war as well?

But I would be fine with it: The mod is interesting enough without it. There's no need for religious persecutions in TAM, if you define religion in ancient times not important enough (because clashes of religions actually didn't play that role). But then there should be no need for a religious victory as well. If there's nothing to fight about, there should be nothing to win.

I repete that it wasn't religious persecution as we intend it. A religious persecution is when people are persecuted because their religion is different, but the reason why christians were persecuted was not this in reality.
Also, it's one isolated case, how can we say that the whole classical world should have persecutions of this kind for just one case (that btw was at the end of this age) ?

And I agree with you, there shouldn't be a religious victory (I posted it in another post). Also, as I proposed to the staff, I think there shouldn't even be missionaries except for the christian religion, although only if it's possible to script that religions can spread in cities that already have a religion.

 

[onedreamer]

In my most recent game I used the Illyrian Kombsor (probably misspelled) units to complete destroy the Roman Empire (along with most of the Eastern part of the map). How historically accurate is that???

People are not trying to recreate history here...they are playing a game. If adding a religious victory makes the scenario more fun for people to play, why not allow it???

well, Kambsor did exist, so did the Illyrians and the Romans. In reality, we know that Illyrians did not win the Romans, but you made it happen in the game. It's ok. But religious wars are middle age and modern age stuff, not classical age. They didn't exist... so why should we allow it ? It would be like allowing the discovery of gunpowder in TAM because well, it's fun for people to play it...

 

[Mesix]

well, Kambsor did exist, so did the Illyrians and the Romans. In reality, we know that Illyrians did not win the Romans, but you made it happen in the game. It's ok. But religious wars are middle age and modern age stuff, not classical age. They didn't exist... so why should we allow it ? It would be like allowing the discovery of gunpowder in TAM because well, it's fun for people to play it...

I don't think it's quite the same, and I disagree with your assessment that religion did not play such an important role in the ancient world. In the Egyptian empire, the ruler was recognized as a living encarnation of God (or Ra) on Earth and ruled by devine right. Rulers from the Greek city states sought out the advise of the Oracle so that they could do as the gods willed. Many ancient wars were declared to be the will of the gods. Philip II and Alexander claimed to be decendent of Heracules and Achilies and destined to "liberate" the Greek cities captured by the Persians.

Religion has always been a way for people to explain that which they could not understand (day and night, the seasons, stars, etc.). Personifying deities as a human form made them seem more tangible. Rulers of every age have used religion as a means to sway the opinion of the masses (or plebs).

So no single religion ever dominated the Ancient world, this is true. Why does that mean that one could not? If the entire Ancient world believed in the Egyptian pantheon, would this not make Pharoah the ruler of the world? If Pharoah had the military might to do so, do you really think that he would not spread the belief of his devinity to every land under the sun?

 

[Mesix]

Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we.

Exodus 1:8-9

And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

Exodus 1:22



...I don't know about you, but this sounds like religious persecution to me...

...I could be wrong, but I think this is in the Ancient times...

 

[Ick of the East]

..I could be wrong, but I think this is in the Ancient times...

If someone doesn't want a religious victory, that's fine. But it is very strange to argue that there was no religious persecution in ancient times. Ankhenaton persecuted the Egyptian polytheists who then, upon his death, persecuted the Egyptian monotheists.

According to the Bible, the Hebrews dealt out death and destruction to anyone worshiping other gods. The Roman pagans persecuted the Jews and Christians when they refused to worship the Emperor as a god. Roman Christians persecuted anyone they could get their hands on.

Sure, a religous victory never happened. But if we want something like a space race to end the game we should consider it as a possiblity.

 

[onedreamer]

I don't think it's quite the same, and I disagree with your assessment that religion did not play such an important role in the ancient world.

would you kindly quote where I stated this ? Thank you.

 

[onedreamer]

So no single religion ever dominated the Ancient world, this is true. Why does that mean that one could not? If the entire Ancient world believed in the Egyptian pantheon, would this not make Pharoah the ruler of the world? If Pharoah had the military might to do so, do you really think that he would not spread the belief of his devinity to every land under the sun?

Exactly this is the problem. Ancient religions were not universal religions like Christianity. The God of Sun was the God of Egyptians. Athena was protector of Athens, Mars the god of Romans... etc. So the question that arises is simple... why would these people want to impose their religion on other people ? It was a matter of pride for them to be the only one favoured by these gods. "God" as intended in the Christian religion instead is the God of all mankind.

 

[onedreamer]

Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we.

Exodus 1:8-9

And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

Exodus 1:22



...I don't know about you, but this sounds like religious persecution to me...

...I could be wrong, but I think this is in the Ancient times...

I wonder where you read religious persecution in these lines. I also wonder how can you believe what is written in a book that is full of scientific and historically biased errors.

 

[Drogear]

oh great, now my insightfull and wise input (j/k irony) gets lost in the flood of the "great religion debate"... I shoulda posted them later.

 

[onedreamer]

Nope Drogear your important input doesn't get lost
Problem with it is I personally don't think you came out with a definite suggestion yet because what you proposed would only slow or obstacolate the process of tile improvement, but it still won't stop it.
Personally I couldn't come out with a decent idea about this yet.

 

[Maniac]

My post got flooded as well. No interest in a little music?

 

[Greenlocke]

@Maniac: I would love to see some unique music for the mod. And a nice front-screen.

@Drogear: I couldn't agree more. What about some kind of maintenance cost associated with improvements. Ie: 10 tiled roads = 1 gold? And maybe civics could make this cheaper/more expensive?

 

[BenG]

Great mod guys! Much more fun than standard Civ4.

Btw, I read the entire thread and saw that you guys are lacking music. I've uploaded a file here (6.65 MB). It's supposed to be the kind of music that was played during Greek religious ceremonies IIRC. Most of it is kinda boring IMHO - unfortunately they didn't have rock & metal back in the Classical Age. But I think the last minute or so, starting from 6:07 could serve well as diplomatic music for some civ.

Just so no one misses it!

Don't worry M@ni@c, I'll download the file and give it to the design team if one of us hasn't already done so. It is not copyrighted is it?