The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[Maniac]

I'm a Civ4 newbie, so sorry if I ask a stupid question, but I'm wondering about city networks.

I'm playing as Greece currently. A while ago I sent a settler to Cyprus to found a new city. Recently it struck me: that city is connected to my trade network! Yet I don't have the technology which enables coastal networks (Astronomy IIRC). So how come I still get all my resources on that isolated island?

Which leads me to another question btw: Why do coastal networks come so late in the game?? And (while fortunately still stronger than standard Civ4 ) why are navies so weak? Surely the most determining characteristic of the mediterranean world is that there's a sea in the middle, land all around it, which makes trade, communication etc between all the bordering civilizations so much easier than over land. So personally I would argue in favour of a stronger naval aspect, and an elaborated naval tech tree. In the meanwhile, I would suggest that coastal networks are moved to Boat Building, as well as the Galley, to allow early transportation. (It kinda sucked for Greece that I had to wait so long to found overseas colonies.) Also I'd suggest giving ships 4 instead of 3 movement points. Naval movement should be significantly faster than land movement!
I have lots more ideas btw, if the mod is still open for change.

 

[Maniac]

It is not copyrighted is it?

Not that I know. It was included on a self-made CD our teacher gave us to guide ourselves through Delphi, on our last-year school vacation to Greece.

 

[Drogear]

@Maniac: I would love to see some unique music for the mod. And a nice front-screen.

@Drogear: I couldn't agree more. What about some kind of maintenance cost associated with improvements. Ie: 10 tiled roads = 1 gold? And maybe civics could make this cheaper/more expensive?

if this maintenance thing could work I think It would be cool, but main thing is that the AI can handel the change.

 

[Dux_]

It's hard enough to work tiles as it is now, I think gameplay > realism on this particular issue. I had to double my ammount of workers last time just to meet my needs early on.

 

[onedreamer]

I'm a Civ4 newbie, so sorry if I ask a stupid question, but I'm wondering about city networks.

I'm playing as Greece currently. A while ago I sent a settler to Cyprus to found a new city. Recently it struck me: that city is connected to my trade network! Yet I don't have the technology which enables coastal networks (Astronomy IIRC). So how come I still get all my resources on that isolated island?

Astronomy is for ocean trading.

 

[onedreamer]

@Drogear: I couldn't agree more. What about some kind of maintenance cost associated with improvements. Ie: 10 tiled roads = 1 gold? And maybe civics could make this cheaper/more expensive?

This isn't a solution IMO, the AI won't build less roads because it would make it save money...

 

[Greenlocke]

@onedreamer: I agree. However, I believe/hope that our resident SDKers might be able to change the AI. That is the major difference between III and IV modding, correct? AI-Editing?

@Dux: Really? I found that the opposite was true for me. I had too many workers and ended up automating them, just to give them something to do. All of my cities were at max production already. This was a defining characteristic of all three of my games, 2 of which were played to completion. And almost the entire map looked like a modern highway system. (Speaking of which, can we please call the railroad an "Imperial Road" or something?)

@Religious Debate: I would like to see the new names utilized. (Cult of the Sun, etc.) As well, I wouldn't mind seeing some type of endgame scenario regarding religious expansion. BUT, I would like to see at least two peaceful endgame options created - Diplomacy Victory, and Spaceship-Style Victory. All three would be even better.

Obviously, Civ is a chance to recreate history. But I think it is important that we emphasize events which were possible, if not probable. Under the proper leadership (the player), what could any of our chosen civs have accomplished? For me, this should be the goal of playing a game like Civ. Winning the civil war as the Confederates. Conquering the world as Ghandi. etc. I don't expect Civ to be a recreation of historical reality (if that even exists), but it should at least be a recreation of historical possibility. But, everyone plays games for different reasons - and this is just my opinion.

 

[Greenlocke]

Re: Roads...

The more I think of it though, the more I'm not sure. Because Civ3 rewarded players who were utilizing roads - it didn't punish them.
Maybe, there could be a curtain of roads. ie: 6 roaded tiles/city? Much like units? And if players go beyond the curtain, they will have to pay maintenance?

Thoughts?

 

[Dux_]

At the end, you always end up with too many workers, but now I have to wage early war just to get that couple of extra workers

As for the name on religions, I would like to keep semi-generic names (Cult of Ra, etc, as it's been sugested). as opposed to the very ambigous (spell?) of Cult of the Sun God.

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

I think the road-concept of Civilization is one of the most disturbing features of the game. It does not look good with the entire screen covered with "highways" and it's not historically accurate when land provides faster transportation than searoutes. However, Firaxis took a huge step forward with civ4 and it's river-connected cities, and there are ways we could improve the concept even more:

Change design. Make smaller roads that blend more with the surrounding landscape.

Move technology. Make roadbuilding available much later than it is now. If it's possible to program, resources should be provided as soon as the tile is improved with the right improvement, and within nationborders.

New units. I'm working on a scandinavia-scenario at the moment where I'm planning to implement a new boatunit (knarr) that can sail river-tiles. I'm new to modding so I don't know if that's possible, but it ought to be! If so, there should certainly be riversailing boats in TAM as well.

 

[Shqype]

However, Firaxis took a huge step forward with civ4 and it's river-connected cities

Pardon my ignorance, but what's so special about river-connected cities?

Also, worker speed was changed to 75 (from 100) so that they do everything slower ...

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's so special about river-connected cities?

It is only in the last few hundreds of years, that landtransport have become faster (and more often used) than seatravelling (generally speaking). Trade and travels along coasts and rivers is the most important reason for citygrowth throughout history.
The fact that two cities along the same river will enjoy extensive trade with each other is so obvious, that it's hard to figure out why it hasn't been implemented in Civilization before.

 

[Drogear]

If/When a bigger map is implemented I would love to see different quality roads.

For this suggestion a bigger map is essential for the higher detail level.

1st road type: “Dirt road” that gives very little move bonus (+1) due to the low-tech approach to making it.

2nd road type: Ordinary road: +2 move

3rd road type: Paved road/Roman highway. Need “late-game” tech, long build time. +2 or +3 Movement + Commerce bonus due to better infrastructure access for traders (subjective).

 

[baptiste]

3rd road type: Paved road/Roman highway. Need “late-game” tech, long build time. +2 or +3 Movement + Commerce bonus due to better infrastructure access for traders (subjective).

Would be interesting, but this one (not the standard ones) should have a maintenance cost. It could be shield and/or gold from closest city, but i would find it very nice to have degradations on these roads.

Sample of the scheme :
- paved road gives a commerce bonus instead of production bonus (ie : +1 commerce for a tile with yet at least 2 commerce, much like financial trait)
- construction is 1.5 or 2 times longer than "railroad")
- movement is same as actual railroad
- after X (50 ?) turns it becomes ordinary road

The "maintenance" is simulated by degrading the improvement, needing workers to back to the tile and rebuild it.
This way we won't have a map with thousands railroads everywhere, and workers would have something interesting to do.


This would allow to have smaller productions, i find that prouction is very very high at this point with the very strong workshops and commerce quite low because of the very long time to upgrade cottages. It could maybe rebalance this point.

 

[Mesix]

I think the road-concept of Civilization is one of the most disturbing features of the game. It does not look good with the entire screen covered with "highways" and it's not historically accurate when land provides faster transportation than searoutes. However, Firaxis took a huge step forward with civ4 and it's river-connected cities, and there are ways we could improve the concept even more:

Change design. Make smaller roads that blend more with the surrounding landscape.

Move technology. Make roadbuilding available much later than it is now. If it's possible to program, resources should be provided as soon as the tile is improved with the right improvement, and within nationborders.

New units. I'm working on a scandinavia-scenario at the moment where I'm planning to implement a new boatunit (knarr) that can sail river-tiles. I'm new to modding so I don't know if that's possible, but it ought to be! If so, there should certainly be riversailing boats in TAM as well.

I like what you are saying about rivers being used as a means of transportation. This is both historically accurate and more realistic. I think instead of creating units for the rivers to illustrate this concept, it would be cool if little boats could be seen traveling on the river (or along the coast) between cities in a little annimation. They could be kind of like the walkers in Pharoah/Caesar series (only not as numerous...just one or two small boats going back and forth between two connected cities). River traversing military units would be a nice addition to the game too.

 

[Maniac]

Move technology. Make roadbuilding available much later than it is now.

I agree. :b: The Wheel should have Pottery as a prerequisite for example.

If it's possible to program, resources should be provided as soon as the tile is improved with the right improvement, and within nationborders.

I agree too. If it's not possible to program, a workaround could be to just let roads start with no movement bonus at all, and then let the wheel give +1 road movement.

New units. I'm working on a scandinavia-scenario at the moment where I'm planning to implement a new boatunit (knarr) that can sail river-tiles. I'm new to modding so I don't know if that's possible, but it ought to be! If so, there should certainly be riversailing boats in TAM as well.

Agree here too. Again, if not possible to mod, perhaps there could be a third kind of road, which already starts the game placed on both sides on big rivers. That river-road could have increased movement on it with the development of the sail.

 

[Maniac]

Astronomy is for ocean trading.

Are you sure?
Below is a screenie of the TAM tech tree.
What tech enables coastal trading then?

 

[Ick of the East]

I like what you are saying about rivers being used as a means of transportation. This is both historically accurate and more realistic.

Historic, certainly. But not only historic. The amount of goods transported on rivers today is HUGE.

And I really like the suggestion of deteriorating roads and an upkeep cost for keeping them in shape, as well as the three levels of quality.

 

[Sisonpyh]

Is TAM only balanced for 'Normal' gameplay speed? Just played a game on Epic where I finished the Tech with 250 turns or so to spare...wasn't much fun there at the end.

Also:

1) Is a new map on the horizon? I would like to play as a Briton.

2) When are Heros being implemented?

3) Any plans for Civ specific wonders? Like there was in the Civ 3 version.

 

[Ick of the East]

1) Is a new map on the horizon? I would like to play as a Briton.

Oh, yeah. That reminds me. There needs to be a pass though the Alps. Preferably at that little jog just south of Lake Geneva (the St. Bernard Pass).

The way it is now, it is much too difficult for Romans to move north or for Germans to move south.