The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[Ingvina Freyr]

It says that Numidia is not on the map does that mean you can't play as them???

Nubia, if that's what you meant, is not playable on the current map, but you can play as Nubia on a random map if you feel the urge to whip some Egyptian backsides.

 

[AndreasS]

I was wondering, are there any plans for using the new features from warlords in this mod, and how will it be done?

Like the new traits, unique buildings, great generals (simular to the great heroes that has been planned for a long time) etc, etc....

Some new graphics from the xp will also be interesting for this mod I guess, like the Libyan Mercenary unit, the new ancient wonders, and the new unique buildings belonging to the ancient age, special units/features from the scenarios (Rise of Rome/Alexander.....) etc, etc.....

Any comments Thamis, or other developers? Had any thougts about it?

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Ok, I've got an amazing idea that I want to try out. Why do we have to limit ourselves to 6, 7, or 8 traits? We can make as many traits as we want to! Tailoured to as many civilizations as we want to.

Ok... how about we make yet another historical change and give each civ an advantage in the unit type it was known for. Nubians, Minoans (well, they're not in TAM4), and Babylonians were known for their good archers. Ther Germanics were known for good melee fighting. The Scythians were great riders.

Combat Expertise: Melee
- Free Combat I promotion for all melee units
Civs: Germanic Tribes, Gaul, (Greece?), Illyria, Kolchis, Hittites, Dacia, Persia

Combat Expertise: Mounted
- Free Flanking I promotion for all mounted units
Civs: Scythia, Lydia, Medes

Combat Expertise: Ranged
- Free Drill I promotion for all skirmisher units
Civs: Iberians, Nubians, Babylonians

Combat Experise: Naval (this is a weaker one, so it needs significant advantages)
- Free Flanking I promotion for all naval units
- Free Combat I promotion for all naval units
- Double production speed for harbor, lighthouse
Civs: Carthage, Phoenicia, (Greece?)

Standing Military (a strong one, for Rome only)
- Free Combat I promotion for all melee & mounted units
- Free Drill I promotion for all skirmisher units
Civs: Rome

These would come in addition to the 1, 2, or 3 traits that the civs get. It obviously makes the Aggressive trait redundant.

1) The aggressive trait doesn't work in this mod...or maybe it's just me? My units aren't getting the free Combat I promo at creation (Hittites).

2) Aggressive trait civs also get experience more readily from combat, which is something you would need to consider before removing it.

3) I think Greece had a Standing Military Presence (especially after Agememnon united Greece).

4) I like the idea of Sea Faring civ trait.

5) Is it easier to make UUs that incorporate the abilities (i.e. free promotions) that you are talking about or adding a 3rd trait?

6) Personally, IMHO, I think the easiest solution is to do the following:

a) Give a UU a point or two of extra strength compaired to units of its technology. Forget about better % bonuses than the % bonuses already given for that unit type in combat.

b) Don't get rid of the Aggressive trait (possible game mechanics issue), just change its name to Military Power or Military Expertise or something like that. Then make sure that all civs with this trait get a free 0xp promo at creation. I think along the lines of what Thamis has suggested would be fine. These were: Combat I for Medium and Heavy Units. Drill I for Skirmishers. Combat I for Ships. Flanking I for Mounted Units.
- Civs that were particularly well known for military expertise were Greece, Rome, Carthage, and the Scythians.

c) Barbaric civ trait: The Gauls, The Germanic Tribes, and Getae were relatively late arrivals in terms of "becoming civilized" and spent much of this period fighting themselves as much as they did the expansive efforts of Rome, Greece, and others. I would propose that Barbaric civs treat all terrain as unit cost one, have weaker units than the technology would suggest, but be able to build their units much faster than the more civilized civs, say 25% faster? Oh, and 50% reduction in military support costs...they lived off the fat of the land. Too imballancing?

d) Create the Sea People trait: All naval units recieve +1 sight and movement, double production speed of lighthouse and harbor. I would even suggest +1 food on coastal squares. Their UU's should be ships naturally.

e) Let's make spiritual and phylosophical traits more appealing too, while we're at it. Spiritual should build spiritual buildings at least 25% faster than non-spiritual civs. Phylosophical civs should also produce scientific buildings at least 25% faster.

f) Financial civs should build financial buildings at least 25% faster.

g) Military Power/Expertise civs should build military buildings at least 25% faster.

h) Expansive civs should build granaries, lighthouses, harbors, and aquaducts at least 25% faster.

i) Creative civs should build cultural buildings at least 25% faster.

j) Organized civs I think need a boost to their maintenance reducing abilities as well as a 25% reduction in construction time of courthouses and the like.

k) Inudstrious civs should get a free hammer on all plots generating 3 or more hammers.

7) If you incorporated some mix of what you are thinking and what myself and a few others have suggested, then you might end up with a civ trait matrix like this (at least along these lines, it is your awesome mod, I trust your team's judgement):

Babylon:Spiritual, Creative, Phylosophical
Carthage:Military Power, Organized, Financial (You could make a good argument for Sea People rather than Organized.)
Egypt: Spiritual, Creative, Industrious
Gaul: Barbaric, Expansive, Creative
Germanic: Barbaric, Expansive, Phylosophical
Getae (Dacians): Expansive, Organized, Phylosophical
Hittites: Military Power, Organized, Industrious
Iberian: Sea People, Spiritual, Creative (Sort of modeled after Portugal and Spain)
Illyria: Sea People, Financial, Creative
Kolchis: Financial, Spiritual, Phylosophical
Lydia: Sea People, Financial, Phylosophical
Mycenae: Military Power, Sea People, Phylosophical
Phoenicia: Sea People, Financial, Industrious
Rome: Military Power, Expansive, Organized
Scythia: Barbaric, Expansive, Industrious

 

[Shqype]

I just downloaded the mod a few days ago and it is great. I love ancient warfare in fact I am a grad. student in ancient history and this mod is more historically accurate then I ever dreamed of seeing. Thanks for making such a great mod and keep up the great work!



Ever heard of the Spartans or Alexander the Great... The Greeks invented western warfare as we know it today, with relatively small, but well trained and armored forces. The Greeks where always out numbered when fighting foreign armies, but they almost always won as well. Alexander marched through the Persian Empire with only around 40,000 men. In my opinion the Greek Hoplite should be very strong, but very expensive. This would reflect how they where in reality.

But thanks again for the great mod!

Alexander the Great wasn't Greek, he was an ancient Macedonian that adopted and spread Greek culture. Huge difference. Which renders your point useless The Spartans were a different story, on the other hand.

 

[Shqype]

Regarding Illyria and Greece: The same thing happens in all my games; Teuta blocks greek expansion to the north, and by the time open borders can be signed all lands are "taken" wich leaves Agamemnon ruler of a tiny little kingdom at the bottom of the scorelist. Since Illyria and Greece always share religion no wars has ever been waged between them, despite their close borders. In southern Italy two or three colonies are always established before the Romans get there wich IMO would be perfect if they were Greek or Carthaginian settlements and not Illyrian.
My suggestion is to remove, at least, one of the two timber-resources next to Skodra; timber 38,24, and perhaps also fish 38,25 or cow 38,26.
Instead of pumping the Greeks full of testosteron and steroids (many resources) i would like to see what happens if they get to start with two settlers. Maybe that would make the AI act out history, wich IMO is a good thing.

Have you played with the newest version of the mod? Wait till the patch and tell me how it plays out. Religious modifiers have been reduced and other modifiers which contribute to angryness and aggression have been increased. Like I said, I played as Illyria and my two neighbors both declared war on me (Mycenae and Dacia).

But I'm curious to know what, in your opinion, would be good "acting out history."

By the way, many of these problems can be fixed with a bigger map, which we will have by 2.0 the latest.

 

[Shqype]

IIRC you can give civs a free building in every city. Just make a building especially for the seafaring civs, and set it at 100% destruction chance for when civs capture the seafaring civs' cities.

I don't know though if a civ would automatically get its free building when they capture a city. :hmmm: If not, other way to achieve the same. Give the "seafaring" civs a special capital, just like every civ in FfH has. Let that capital provide that building to every city.

Yep, there's always a way, and that's a pretty clever hack to do it.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Gulp!

I've noticed that your religion doesn't matter much when it comes down to whether or not the AI wants to attack you.

Seems as if the AI is still very player centric, rarely declaring war on other AI civs.

I just had a game, where The Dacians, led by Decebalus, walked some 30 units accross that narrow land bridge above the Black sea, through the Scythians, and through the Kolchis to declare war on me, the Hittites!

It was maddening!

 

[Pvblivs]

Alexander the Great wasn't Greek, he was an ancient Macedonian that adopted and spread Greek culture. Huge difference. Which renders your point useless The Spartans were a different story, on the other hand.

It wasn't Mycene, you're right. But after all, all that defined Greek after Alexander was Greek and not Macedonian. And as it was Alexander who gave shape to Greece he was one of the most important Greek.
We want Greece to be strong. Has it ever been really strong without Alexander? No. Culturally yes (that's the reason we know it today, the reason it even exists today), otherwise: no.

 

[Shqype]

7) If you incorporated some mix of what you are thinking and what myself and a few others have suggested, then you might end up with a civ trait matrix like this (at least along these lines, it is your awesome mod, I trust your team's judgement):

Babylon:Spiritual, Creative, Phylosophical
Carthage:Military Power, Organized, Financial (You could make a good argument for Sea People rather than Organized.)
Egypt: Spiritual, Creative, Industrious
Gaul: Barbaric, Expansive, Creative
Germanic: Barbaric, Expansive, Phylosophical
Getae (Dacians): Expansive, Organized, Phylosophical
Hittites: Military Power, Organized, Industrious
Iberian: Sea People, Spiritual, Creative (Sort of modeled after Portugal and Spain)
Illyria: Sea People, Financial, Creative
Kolchis: Financial, Spiritual, Phylosophical
Lydia: Sea People, Financial, Phylosophical
Mycenae: Military Power, Sea People, Phylosophical
Phoenicia: Sea People, Financial, Industrious
Rome: Military Power, Expansive, Organized
Scythia: Barbaric, Expansive, Industrious

I do think it's silly to handicap barbarian civs even more by giving them a barbarian trait. In history, they were warlike and had powerful units (UUs), but the main thing that kept them behind was their lack of unity or central authority, something which isn't present or representable in Civ.

I like Thamis' idea about specialized Combat Traits, and I think that would work well for Aggressive. I also like the Seafaring trait, but perhaps we could make 2 or 3 seafaring traits as we need them. To my understanding, the Greeks weren't as "seafaring" as the Phoenicians, but the Greeks did have merchant vessels and did have some overseas colonies. The Illyrians, at one point in their history, became known for their Lembis (Liburnis) terrorizing the Adriatic and plundering ships (Greek merchant vessels in particular), plus they also migrated in groups over land and sea to Italy.

kwarriorpoet, I don't really know why you would make the Illyrians Financial; the only way they really became financial was by plundering merchant vessels, and when they nearly destroyed Macedonia and made raids on the Greek mainland.

Creative works great though, since they covered almost the whole Balkans except for the south of Greece (and later Thracian land), so this would better represent their expansion (and the unique culture they possessed) than a bonus to health.

PS - since we're talking about traits, how about reducing industrious to +33% production instead of +50%? Also, philosophical could be changed to +33% as well. I think Rome should be given Industrious as their additional trait, and Mycenae needs Philosophical.

 

[Head Serf]

That's kind of strange, since in my current game, I am the Dacians (Getians) and I invaded Kolchis and then the Hittites via that same land bridge!

 

[Shqype]

Gulp!

I've noticed that your religion doesn't matter much when it comes down to whether or not the AI wants to attack you.

Seems as if the AI is still very player centric, rarely declaring war on other AI civs.

I just had a game, where The Dacians, led by Decebalus, walked some 30 units accross that narrow land bridge above the Black sea, through the Scythians, and through the Kolchis to declare war on me, the Hittites!

It was maddening!

I'll ask if there's something in the SDK code that determines whether the AI will declare war on the other AI. We'd want to eliminate a factor that inhibits them declaring war on each other!

 

[Shqype]

It wasn't Mycene, you're right. But after all, all that defined Greek after Alexander was Greek and not Macedonian. And as it was Alexander who gave shape to Greece he was one of the most important Greek.
We want Greece to be strong. Has it ever been really strong without Alexander? No. Culturally yes (that's the reason we know it today, the reason it even exists today), otherwise: no.

So then what does that say about ancient Greece in its true Greek form?

 

[Pvblivs]

Gulp!

I've noticed that your religion doesn't matter much when it comes down to whether or not the AI wants to attack you.

Seems as if the AI is still very player centric, rarely declaring war on other AI civs.

I just had a game, where The Dacians, led by Decebalus, walked some 30 units accross that narrow land bridge above the Black sea, through the Scythians, and through the Kolchis to declare war on me, the Hittites!

It was maddening!

They hardly worked at the leader preferences. Distance should be a factor to rather not lead a war.

I did not notice the AI being very player centric in their military decisions in my current game. Wether the AI comes on you or not depends on wether you're weak or not. If you cannot defend everybody considers attacking you.

Like with Viriato in my current game. This poor, weak guy already had many civs against him, now Rome and me (Carthage) are producing some colonies out of him. And there ware other wars as well, me being never involved, just asked sometimes by the AI: "join me, Gandalf and we shall rule [...]earth together!!!"

 

[Pvblivs]

So then what does that say about ancient Greece in its true Greek form?

They were the Barbarians they always spoke of themselves?

Mycaenae for sure was a strong and influencing culture. Fortunately we do never consider Greece in their later, rather short Greek form

 

[DrewTate]

Should add Sparta. Menelaus could be the leader, they would be militaristic and seafaring.

 

[Shqype]

Of course, they had trading posts and colonies wherever they could put them, and later on a neighboring 'country' adopted their culture and spread it all over the ancient world.

I'm not saying they weren't significant, they were very significant, I'm just pointing out that they don't have much of a history of being warlike. They were known for their philosophy, technological advancement, and culture.

They were the Barbarians they always spoke of themselves?

I'm not saying that, just saying that those "barbarians" were never Greek to begin with (despite Greek claims to them today).

 

[Pvblivs]

Of course, they had trading posts and colonies wherever they could put them, and later on a neighboring 'country' adopted their culture and spread it all over the ancient world.

I'm not saying they weren't significant, they were very significant, I'm just pointing out that they don't have much of a history of being warlike. They were known for their philosophy, technological advancement, and culture.

I'm not saying that, just saying that those "barbarians" were never Greek to begin with (despite Greek claims to them today).

Well they even participated in the Olympic Games. Ok, Athens always saw them as Barbarians. But in "fact" Macedonia is considered as a part of Greek culture though different from Greece because influenced by Illyria and others as well. The Wikipedia even says that it was rather like Mycaenae than the city states.
And Greece itself "never" has been before the Phillip united it. There was a common culture, a common language but often enough internal clashes. I wouldn't even say they were technologically advanced. They had some good military (Sparta) and partially some form of democracy and of course they had great thinkers, but would you really say they were advanced in technology in general?

 

[Pvblivs]

And no: Do not add Sparta. There isn't any Athens as well. Sparta does not belong in the time befor the Dorian invasion

 

[Hypnotoad]

Okay, the Greeks should definitely be philosophical. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a grad student studying Greek philosophy

The number of Great people that came from Greece is stunning. Poets, playwrites, philosophers, mathematicians, generals... I would say it is definitely more important than financial (which I was arguing for earlier). Note how many of the Great people's names are Greek. Note how many wonders are based on Greek names (Plato's Academy, Aristotelean Theater (should be something better for Aristotle IMO), Genius of Archimedes).

Note that philosophical certainly can replicate Greek culture -- you can generate more great artists, which can generate a lot of culture in your important cities).

My only problem with the seafaring trait that adds one commerce to each sea tile is that it sounds like financial, only worse (since financial adds one to each sea tile, plus one for any other tile with 2+ commerce). Perhaps it could add 2 commerce to each sea tile?

-- Hypnotoad

 

[Shqype]

Okay, the Greeks should definitely be philosophical. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a grad student studying Greek philosophy

The number of Great people that came from Greece is stunning. Poets, playwrites, philosophers, mathematicians, generals... I would say it is definitely more important than financial (which I was arguing for earlier). Note how many of the Great people's names are Greek. Note how many wonders are based on Greek names (Plato's Academy, Aristotelean Theater (should be something better for Aristotle IMO), Genius of Archimedes).

Note that philosophical certainly can replicate Greek culture -- you can generate more great artists, which can generate a lot of culture in your important cities).

My only problem with the seafaring trait that adds one commerce to each sea tile is that it sounds like financial, only worse (since financial adds one to each sea tile, plus one for any other tile with 2+ commerce). Perhaps it could add 2 commerce to each sea tile?

-- Hypnotoad

Just because a name sounds Greek, doesn't mean it is. Many ancient peoples didn't have their own written language, and even for some of those that did, the Greeks recorded their names with their own alphabet and language rules.

But, I agree about Greece being philosophical. They did have many great people, and that traits fits them well.

Regarding Financial, we have changed it to give +1 commerce only in plots with 3 or more commerce. This is one of the many changes scheduled for update v1.91.