The Aremenian Genocide

[Dschingis Khan]

I was watching a video of The Rape of Nanking on Youtube in which I commented that genocides like that and the Armenian Genocide (along with the others I listed) must never be forgotten.

Interestingly, a man from Turkey replied: "There is no such thing as the Armenian genocide. It is one of the biggest lies told in the history of humanity."

Do we have anyone from Turkey on this forum? It might be rude, but I would really like to hear your opinion of the Armenian Genocide. Anyone else can comment about the Genocide as well.

 

[neutrino]

I was watching a video of The Rape of Nanking on Youtube in which I commented that genocides like that and the Armenian Genocide (along with the others I listed) must never be forgotten.

Interestingly, a man from Turkey replied: "There is no such thing as the Armenian genocide. It is one of the biggest lies told in the history of humanity."

Do we have anyone from Turkey on this forum? It might be rude, but I would really like to hear your opinion of the Armenian Genocide. Anyone else can comment about the Genocide as well.

Probably not worthwhile to talk about this one, not because the nature of topic is bad, but because what you will get is a crapload of emotionalism from both the Turks and the Armenians. They have not resolved their own historical problems. I do not see how much of help they can be in enlightening the outsiders.

 

[Quildavyr]

People get killed.True..

But genocide?I dont think so and I am not sure about it.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

From my experiences most of the comments you see on youtube are inflammatory and trolling. Although Turkey officially denies the genocide but your ordinary turk I don't know, probably.

 

[bob bobato]

I know almost nothing on the subject, but I was just wondering-what was the justification for the genocide? 'Armenians are evil' (a la Hitler), or some other reason?

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

There actually was an armenian hanging aroung the forums by the name of Drtad whose relatives apparently played roles in early 20th century armenian affairs of which I can't remember the details. Don't know if he is still around though.

 

[West 36]

From what I know, it was definitely a genocide. Quildavyr is a Turk though, and it's interesting to think how that affects his opinion.

 

[sydhe]

The Armenians were Christian and there were feelings they were sympathizing with and even helping the Russians.

 

[warpus]

First define 'genocide'

 

[philippe]

People get killed.True..

But genocide?I dont think so and I am not sure about it.

I am. remember the link I gave you?
oh for lulz, and you know Turkish check out the wiki page about this in Turkish and in English and notice the difference

 

[Dachs]

First define 'genocide'

Thank you, Mr. Clinton. We should probably just use the UN definition, flawed as many may think it to be.

 

[Quildavyr]

I am. remember the link I gave you?
oh for lulz, and you know Turkish check out the wiki page about this in Turkish and in English and notice the difference

That is wiki,you know.
Trolls are everywhere,even at wiki pages

 

[Dachs]

That is wiki,you know.
Trolls are everywhere,even at wiki pages

Especially ones connected with Turkey and the Ottoman Empire, from about 1908 to 1930 or so. The former state of the Great Fire of Smyrna page sent me into an edit and later flame war a few years ago (ooh that was fun).

 

[Quildavyr]

Especially ones connected with Turkey and the Ottoman Empire, from about 1908 to 1930 or so. The former state of the Great Fire of Smyrna page sent me into an edit and later flame war a few years ago (ooh that was fun).

Anyone has his idea about any matter,then he edits wiki the way he liked.

I am not saying genocide was a lie.But I dont accept it to be true.I will wait until the matter solved.

 

[philippe]

Anyone has his idea about any matter,then he edits wiki the way he liked.

I am not saying genocide was a lie.But I dont accept it to be true.I will wait until the matter solved.

So how will the matter be "solved" then?

death fields, 1.5 million dead armenians, pictures of dead bodies piled up, what more do you need? the armenian "genocide" was the willfull and planned extermination of an ethnicy.

 

[Quildavyr]

With cooperation.How can you be sure that all of those dead bodies belong to Armenians?
Armenians killed Turks too with Russian support.Armenians supported Russian army with goods.Armenian partisans pillaged turkish villages.
No,Philippe,those bodies are not all Armenians..

 

[warpus]

Thank you, Mr. Clinton. We should probably just use the UN definition, flawed as many may think it to be.

Hilary, you're welcome, m'dear

and here is the definition:

The convention defines genocide as any act committed with the idea of destroying in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. This includes such acts as:

* Killing members of the group
* Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
* Deliberately inflicting conditions calculated to physically destroy the group (the whole group or even part of the group)
* Forcefully transferring children of the group to another group

So now, it appears as though the real question here is what exactly the reason for the killings was. If they were performed with the intent of destroying a part of the national, ethnic, racial, or religious makeup of Armenian society, then the Armenian killings would be genocide. If not, they wouldn't be.

So what exactly happened and what were the reasons?

 

[Quildavyr]

Armenian support to Russian army,killing unarmed civilians and pillaging their villages by Armenian partisans.It made Turks angry and decided to hit them back.Likely self defense..
That is all,what I know.
It is not like to need livingspace.Land is ours after all.

Seriously,finding the truth out needs a cooperation without prejudices.It will be not solved this way.

 

[Dragonlord]

Armenian support to Russian army,killing unarmed civilians and pillaging their villages by Armenian partisans.It made Turks angry and decided to hit them back.Likely self defense..
That is all,what I know.
It is not like to need livingspace.Land is ours after all.

Seriously,finding the truth out needs a cooperation without prejudices.It will be not solved this way.

Killing unarmed villagers - shooting some, marching others hundreds of miles without food and water, with (surprise!) attendant fatalities - is certainly not self defense!

Whether it was genocide, in the sense of deliberate eradication of Armenians, could be a matter of debate - maybe part of it was simply massive incompetence of Ottoman leaders and military, if you like that better? - but that the Armenians died and that the deaths were caused by the actions of the Ottoman military can hardly be honestly disputed, unless you want to stick your head in the sand...

 

[Dachs]

I am not saying genocide was a lie.But I dont accept it to be true.I will wait until the matter solved.

If it ain't true, and it's no lie, then what is it? A "simple mistake"?

With cooperation.How can you be sure that all of those dead bodies belong to Armenians?

Of course they don't all belong to Armenians. Mehmed Talaat Pasha couldn't be absolutely sure of everything after all.

Armenians killed Turks too with Russian support.Armenians supported Russian army with goods.Armenian partisans pillaged turkish villages.
No,Philippe,those bodies are not all Armenians..

Yes, and there were Jewish criminals in the Third Reich. The response is sort of vastly out of proportion to the stimulus. Wholesale slaughter of a million people is completely different from a few bands of outlaws. Besides, from what I know, most of the "evidence" used to support the CUP prosecution of the genocide, i.e. the word of the Minister of War, Enver Pasha, came primarily from him wanting to blame his defeat at Sarikamish on someone not himself.

It seems to me that you're trying to deny that genocide happened and then at the same time attempt to justify it; these two defenses don't seem compatible.

It is not like to need livingspace.Land is ours after all.

Actually, it's not. Turks are just the most recent tenants of a land in which many peoples have dwelt, including Greeks, Hatti, and Celts. And, of course, you got there via genocide: the Seljuqs, in their 1070s-1090s invasion, caused the deaths of most of the Greek population in Galatia and eastern Anatolia as a terror weapon to keep the rest of the place in line, and after the Roman Empire lost the remainder of Asia Minor, the peoples there were slowly oppressed out of existence.

Seriously,finding the truth out needs a cooperation without prejudices.It will be not solved this way.

We know the truth, and there is significant evidence that the genocide took place. In fact, the Ottoman government prosecuted several members of the CUP for being in charge of the killings before the Great War even ended. It is only the position of the government of the Kemalist Republic of Turkey that insists on alternately denying that anything happened and providing justification for the actions of the CUP. The only way that this is going to be solved is if the Turkish government (and apparently its people) acknowledge what their forefathers did ninety years ago and perhaps try to make amends somehow.