The Aremenian Genocide

[Squonk]

Armenian support to Russian army,killing unarmed civilians and pillaging their villages by Armenian partisans.It made Turks angry and decided to hit them back.Likely self defense..
That is all,what I know.
It is not like to need livingspace.Land is ours after all.

Seriously,finding the truth out needs a cooperation without prejudices.It will be not solved this way.

I've had lots of discussions about armenian genocide at Poly and with a friend of mine, and here are some my comments:

1) Turks try to minimalise as they can the percentage of Armenians in the eastern vilayets of Ottoman Empire. According to official turkish data, Armenians consisted of (if my memory doesn't fail me) between 10% (Diyarbakir) and 33% (Bitlis) of the vilayets claimed by them. According to them, there were less Armenians in some of them than in vilayet of Izmir, which, I believe, had 17% or so armenian minority.
Yet, turkish historians have no problem claiming these were Armenians, under turkish administration, with turkish army gathering there preparing for the fight with Russians, that were slaughtering the muslim population of these areas. It's funny that turkish gouverment doesn' see nothing paranoid in this: the less Armenians were there, the less probable their claims of teh Armenian Threat are.
Funny enough, I've read (or exactly my turkish friend read it for me, my own turkish is not very good) a passage of turkish schoolbook about it, claiming that Armenians killed 1,5 mln turkish citizens. Now it is easy to surmise this number was created to counter alleged 1,2 mln of armenian casualities. But it is very interesting, because Turks claim that the entire population of Armenians in Ottoman Empire at this time was 1,2 mln or so, with much of it living in Izmir, Constantinople etc. Lets say that there was (according to Turks) 1mln of Armenians living in the eastern vilayets. Now if every Armenian there, from 1yo child to a 90 yo woman took a knife and killed one Turk or Kurd, still it would be less than turkish claims.
It shows nicely the turkish problem with history. It is used as a tool, not as a value per se. And it's enough to mention that it was only recently that Turkey admitted that Kurdish, which is a completely different language, with no connection to turkish (kurdish is indo-european, iranian, while turkish is altaic, turkic), is not a turkish mountain dialect. I mean, the influence of politics on humanistic sciences in Turkey was, and in armenian case still is, enormous and it will take decades to change.


2) As I've mentioned, the alleged genocide happened before Russians entered this area. Now I wouldn't be suprised if there were some armed Armenians waiting to support the Russians or even starting the action. I wouldn't be suprised if they even commited some atrocities and I would be even less suprised if the Armenians going hand in hand with Russians from the east commited some atrocities on muslim population, after what they might've heard or seen. But what Quildavyr and others claim is simply impossible. Was Ottoman Empire and Turkish army in such a bad shape that it allowed a mass slaughter of Turks and Kurds by armenian minority under its administration, in presence of turkish army? Does it seem likely at all? Again, if some bigger evil happened to turkish population, it had to tak place after Russians entered, and therefore after so-called Armenian Genocide.

3) I've been writing my master's thesis about the situation of christians under caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, but I took much interest and research with earlier history, and especially X century. It was the time that Byzantium was strong, and muslims weak, that Byzantines were regaining control of their once-lost lands. Now it was then also that christians got blamed by muslims (and jews too!) for supporting Byzantium even in cities thousands of miles away from byzantine border. Even the mechanisms seem similar: byzantine atrocities commited on population of the captured regions (still mostly christian, but who cares), the exodus of muslims from the border region, the destruction of mosques etc it all informed Middle East then of the threat and turned it against christians.
I think it was similar in the Russian - Armenian case. The role of Circassians and other nations fleeding from Causcasus (being conquered by Russia in XIX century) in inciting the attacks on christians is well-known.
1915 was not the first attack on Armenians or christians in this era. XIX century brought pogroms of Armenians in Adana, Zeytun and elsewhere. And these are quite far from Russia. Also, Armenians weren't the only folk that were slaughtered in 1915. 0,2 mln Assyrians were killed then as well, and again many fled. Moreover, Armenians were delt with everywhere (but in Constantinople, where presence of European representatives gave them protection), not only in the territories adjactent to the russian border or front.

I would also like to point that Turkey did and does much to erase the memories of anything armenian in the region. For example, it was funny to read in the ruins of Ani that this city was once the capital "of a kingdom". It would be very politically uncorrect in Turkey to write it was once capital of Armenia. As far as I know, changing armenian-sounding topographic names, destruction of clearly armenian architectural monuments etc was a steady turkish policy in the last decades, but it's an information I've gathered from armenian pages and, to a lesser extent, during my personal visit in the Western Armenia / Eastern Turkey / Northern Kurdistan, so it is not sure. I'd like to see some unbiased relation about it.


I think the term genocide got too political. But I don't think the reality will change if we'll call it a giant ethnic cleansing as well, or whatever. Now turkish gouverment (like in its official webpages) refers to it, if I remember correctly, resettlement or whatever. Bah, I remember my astonishment to read "it was one of the most successful resettlements ever". Even on the official turkish gouverment webpages I've read that the number of victims was 300 000 - 600 000, which means it was from 25% to 50% of armenian population. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. I'm still impressed by the fact that they acknowledged these losses, though accompanied with stuff like that it was teh most successful resettlement ever (Now truly, it was, because there are virtually no Armenians left there, but at least sometimes it was resettling someone into the open sea or into a desert, or into a mass grave) or that the history of this period must be re-written completely, because they found Al-Qur'an in some mass-grave or two.

Now Armenian side probably is more right, but it is absolutely true what was mentioned: there's too much emotion. I've seen a Turk, who politely entered an armenian forum and asked for armenian opinion, hurled (?) with insults and attacked by almost everyone there. It was really unpleasant.

 

[EnlightenmentHK]

It was a genocide. It had propaganda, rounding up of Armenian intellectuals, mass rapes, mass graves, mass massacres, driving hundreds and thousands without supplies or shelter through the deserts, (estimated) more than a million dead with mass death as the desired goal...honestly, what the hell else do you want? Its the second most documented genocide in history. Just about every independent research organization has declared it a genocide. A growing number of governments. Most historians.

This orchestrated effort to minimalize this atrocity is grotesque. The fact that most Turks seem to buy it is disturbing. Here's the thing...civilized countries own up to their past misdeeds. Want to join the club? Do the same.

 

[Squonk]

Hm, I find it really interesting no-one questioned my claims

 

[Quildavyr]

Hm, I find it really interesting no-one questioned my claims

Not really...

I am searching.

 

[Verbose]

Not really...

I am searching.

Certainly, but Squonk just put any further discussion of the entire matter on a much more solid footing applying a modicum of logic to a very sensitive issue. Good job!

 

[Azkonus]

1) Turks try to minimalise as they can the percentage of Armenians in the eastern vilayets of Ottoman Empire. According to official turkish data, Armenians consisted of (if my memory doesn't fail me) between 10% (Diyarbakir) and 33% (Bitlis) of the vilayets claimed by them. According to them, there were less Armenians in some of them than in vilayet of Izmir, which, I believe, had 17% or so armenian minority.
Yet, turkish historians have no problem claiming these were Armenians, under turkish administration, with turkish army gathering there preparing for the fight with Russians, that were slaughtering the muslim population of these areas. It's funny that turkish gouverment doesn' see nothing paranoid in this: the less Armenians were there, the less probable their claims of teh Armenian Threat are.
Funny enough, I've read (or exactly my turkish friend read it for me, my own turkish is not very good) a passage of turkish schoolbook about it, claiming that Armenians killed 1,5 mln turkish citizens. Now it is easy to surmise this number was created to counter alleged 1,2 mln of armenian casualities. But it is very interesting, because Turks claim that the entire population of Armenians in Ottoman Empire at this time was 1,2 mln or so, with much of it living in Izmir, Constantinople etc. Lets say that there was (according to Turks) 1mln of Armenians living in the eastern vilayets. Now if every Armenian there, from 1yo child to a 90 yo woman took a knife and killed one Turk or Kurd, still it would be less than turkish claims.
It shows nicely the turkish problem with history. It is used as a tool, not as a value per se. And it's enough to mention that it was only recently that Turkey admitted that Kurdish, which is a completely different language, with no connection to turkish (kurdish is indo-european, iranian, while turkish is altaic, turkic), is not a turkish mountain dialect. I mean, the influence of politics on humanistic sciences in Turkey was, and in armenian case still is, enormous and it will take decades to change.

The problem here is that as a western you don't know the dynamics of Ottoman Empire. In Otto Turks must serve in the Army but Armenians or Greeks don't. So in the villiages you could only find some "useless" Turkish man (also think about this wars were going on for 6 years at least so most of the 17-40 Turkish men is in the army died or wounded) Although Armenian youngsters are intact. So on the contrary Turkish folk consisting of 1yr old and grandmas vs. adolescent Armenians who are high on testesterone.

This is completely illogical for Ottomans (an anology only white Americans go and serve in the Army hence lost their lifes in Iraq and Afganisthan or Vietnam; but Hispanics or Blacks do trading and banking so they are the wealthiest people in US ruling the country). Seems stupid is not it. But no this is how Ottos and Seljuks are founded. (Turks are better soldiers so they can fight while the rest can do other stuff: This became funny after the invention of Rifles and Banking)

So to sum up 100-150 well armed man can massacre a lot of people. Which put shame on good Armenians too. But as you said there was no hate against Armenians in Constantinapole and Symrnia since a well armed 100-150 men can do nothing there and nothing had happened to Armenians in big cities. (As you all know and agree)

2) As I've mentioned, the alleged genocide happened before Russians entered this area. Now I wouldn't be suprised if there were some armed Armenians waiting to support the Russians or even starting the action. I wouldn't be suprised if they even commited some atrocities and I would be even less suprised if the Armenians going hand in hand with Russians from the east commited some atrocities on muslim population, after what they might've heard or seen. But what Quildavyr and others claim is simply impossible. Was Ottoman Empire and Turkish army in such a bad shape that it allowed a mass slaughter of Turks and Kurds by armenian minority under its administration, in presence of turkish army? Does it seem likely at all? Again, if some bigger evil happened to turkish population, it had to tak place after Russians entered, and therefore after so-called Armenian Genocide..

Ottoman army was in such bad shape. At Sarikamis 30 000 soldiers under Enver Pasha froze to death because of the cold, and because any transportation vehicle sent to vilayets for Armenians for their relocation. They weren't wearing any shoes. Ottos lost every single battle before Mustafa Kemal took the charge. Ottomans only have control in Constantinapole, rest of the country was in total chaos. As you know Greeks marched to Symrnia to Ankara with ease almost without any resistance, this may tell you how bad in shape the Ottoman army and administration.

3) I've been writing my master's thesis about the situation of christians under caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, but I took much interest and research with earlier history, and especially X century. It was the time that Byzantium was strong, and muslims weak, that Byzantines were regaining control of their once-lost lands. Now it was then also that christians got blamed by muslims (and jews too!) for supporting Byzantium even in cities thousands of miles away from byzantine border. Even the mechanisms seem similar: byzantine atrocities commited on population of the captured regions (still mostly christian, but who cares), the exodus of muslims from the border region, the destruction of mosques etc it all informed Middle East then of the threat and turned it against christians.
I think it was similar in the Russian - Armenian case. The role of Circassians and other nations fleeding from Causcasus (being conquered by Russia in XIX century) in inciting the attacks on christians is well-known.
1915 was not the first attack on Armenians or christians in this era. XIX century brought pogroms of Armenians in Adana, Zeytun and elsewhere. And these are quite far from Russia. Also, Armenians weren't the only folk that were slaughtered in 1915. 0,2 mln Assyrians were killed then as well, and again many fled. Moreover, Armenians were delt with everywhere (but in Constantinople, where presence of European representatives gave them protection), not only in the territories adjactent to the russian border or front.

I would also like to point that Turkey did and does much to erase the memories of anything armenian in the region. For example, it was funny to read in the ruins of Ani that this city was once the capital "of a kingdom". It would be very politically uncorrect in Turkey to write it was once capital of Armenia. As far as I know, changing armenian-sounding topographic names, destruction of clearly armenian architectural monuments etc was a steady turkish policy in the last decades, but it's an information I've gathered from armenian pages and, to a lesser extent, during my personal visit in the Western Armenia / Eastern Turkey / Northern Kurdistan, so it is not sure. I'd like to see some unbiased relation about it.


I think the term genocide got too political. But I don't think the reality will change if we'll call it a giant ethnic cleansing as well, or whatever. Now turkish gouverment (like in its official webpages) refers to it, if I remember correctly, resettlement or whatever. Bah, I remember my astonishment to read "it was one of the most successful resettlements ever". Even on the official turkish gouverment webpages I've read that the number of victims was 300 000 - 600 000, which means it was from 25% to 50% of armenian population. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. I'm still impressed by the fact that they acknowledged these losses, though accompanied with stuff like that it was teh most successful resettlement ever (Now truly, it was, because there are virtually no Armenians left there, but at least sometimes it was resettling someone into the open sea or into a desert, or into a mass grave) or that the history of this period must be re-written completely, because they found Al-Qur'an in some mass-grave or two.

Now Armenian side probably is more right, but it is absolutely true what was mentioned: there's too much emotion. I've seen a Turk, who politely entered an armenian forum and asked for armenian opinion, hurled (?) with insults and attacked by almost everyone there. It was really unpleasant.

Well, Turkish goverment accepts lots of Armenian architecture. The most famous one Architect Sinan "the Great" was Armenian. Armenians built hundreds of unbelivably beautiful structures including: Dolmabahce Palace, Selimiye Mosque, Suleymaniye Mosque list is endless we accept them all as Armenians. Hence they are still significant in Turkish music and Cinema.

Let's come back to the important point. Whether it is 300,000 or 1 million lot of Armenians died. It was a shame for Ottomans since they were soo weak, they couldn't protected its own citizens or they let others manipulate them. But my grandfamily lost its lands too (Now in todays Bulgaria and Greece). Most of the Turkish people have links to Balkans, but we lost it all. Today they try to treat us as if we never were there. They try to erase our culture, traditions etc...they made us monsters. (Eventhough we are ethnically have the same DNA with them) Who is fault is this? Look at Kosova, Albania. They are doing whatever they can so that no one speaks Turkish or stays Muslim. They try to install Catholicism!!!??? to the region.

So to sum up, If you are weak, somebody make an ethnicity problem for you even if you don't have one. I am all for good relations with Armenia. But I think Turkish goverment has to stand up for Azeris and Armenians should get out from the Karabag and also they have to say sorry because they litterally cut the Azerbaijan into 2.

 

[Squonk]

The problem here is that as a western you don't know the dynamics of Ottoman Empire. In Otto Turks must serve in the Army but Armenians or Greeks don't.
So in the villiages you could only find some "useless" Turkish man (also think about this wars were going on for 6 years at least so most of the 17-40 Turkish men is in the army died or wounded) Although Armenian youngsters are intact. So on the contrary Turkish folk consisting of 1yr old and grandmas vs. adolescent Armenians who are high on testesterone.

Hm, I believe religious minorities were granted equal rights and duties in the very late Ottoman Empire, along with military service. I may be wrong here, but that thing needs checking. But even if it was true, only some percent of muslim (Turks were and are a minority in most of this region) population of the eastern vilayets were conscribed. It's not as if muslims suddenly became defenceless, especially since there was turkish army present.

So to sum up 100-150 well armed man can massacre a lot of people. Which put shame on good Armenians too. But as you said there was no hate against Armenians in Constantinapole and Symrnia since a well armed 100-150 men can do nothing there and nothing had happened to Armenians in big cities. (As you all know and agree)

Well, there were Armenians deported from the west of the country as well

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Armeniangenocidemap.gif

and even before that, armenian activists and intelectuals of Constantinople were arrested and deported, and some later killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_notables_deported_from_the_Ottoman_capital_in_1915

It's just that, unlike elsewhere, there were some Armenians left there.

Again, I wouldn't be suprised if there indeed were Armenians collaborating with Russians or armenian partisants. But it doesn't seem at all probable they could make an ethnical cleansing (let me stress that) on a bigger scale.

Ottoman army was in such bad shape. At Sarikamis 30 000 soldiers under Enver Pasha froze to death because of the cold, and because any transportation vehicle sent to vilayets for Armenians for their relocation. They weren't wearing any shoes. Ottos lost every single battle before Mustafa Kemal took the charge. Ottomans only have control in Constantinapole, rest of the country was in total chaos. As you know Greeks marched to Symrnia to Ankara with ease almost without any resistance, this may tell you how bad in shape the Ottoman army and administration.

Huh, now that's an interesting point: turkish soldiers froze to death, because vehicles were busy transporting Armenians. Doesn't sound very convincing, sounds like a cheap propaganda. Also, I believed that Armenians were marching on their feet, not being transported by "vehicles".
Ottoman Empire was in bad shape? OK, I'm able to believe in that. But don't You think that a country that couldn't even supply or protect their own military, didn't it know how would end a forcible expulsion of a large part (1 mln people at least) of the population hated for alleged supporting of the enemy, without any means for doing it? Weren't they aware that it will end up in death of large part, if not most, of it? That without the fields the expelled were forced to leave, and lifestock the state has taken away from them, and without supplies provided by the state, marching through mountains, guarded by hostile military and being attacked by the remain of population, and finally left alone in the desert, they would die? Or didn't they care?

Well, Turkish goverment accepts lots of Armenian architecture. The most famous one Architect Sinan "the Great" was Armenian. Armenians built hundreds of unbelivably beautiful structures including: Dolmabahce Palace, Selimiye Mosque, Suleymaniye Mosque list is endless we accept them all as Armenians. Hence they are still significant in Turkish music and Cinema.

That's not a very good example.
Sinan could be Armenian or could be Greek, and he was a yanissary anyway, and a muslim, so I don't think if anyone sees his buildings thinks it's armenian architecture.

Let's come back to the important point. Whether it is 300,000 or 1 million lot of Armenians died. It was a shame for Ottomans since they were soo weak, they couldn't protected its own citizens or they let others manipulate them. But my grandfamily lost its lands too (Now in todays Bulgaria and Greece). Most of the Turkish people have links to Balkans, but we lost it all. Today they try to treat us as if we never were there. They try to erase our culture, traditions etc...they made us monsters. (Eventhough we are ethnically have the same DNA with them) Who is fault is this? Look at Kosova, Albania. They are doing whatever they can so that no one speaks Turkish or stays Muslim. They try to install Catholicism!!!??? to the region.

Turks were never a majority in the Balkans, You just conquered it, like many other lands. Everyone loses something of their conquests. Look at XVII century Poland and what is left of it today (my mother's family was expelled from Podole region lost to USSR after ww2), or at early XX century Russia and Russia today. I know Bulgarians were tough on Turks, but I think Turks are quite lucky when it comes to the size and shape of their state. It's the biggest in the region, one of the most populated, and it included (almost) all ethnically turkish lands, and many of those in which Turks were at the beginning of XX century a minority. Turks (and / or Pomaks) are still present in Bulgaria. I believe there were two regions in which Turks were more numerable: Rodopy mountains, which was still muslim, and which are Pomak, not quite Turk, and Dobrudza, but I don't know what's the situation there. Apart from that, Turks were a small minority.

Now there's a difference between Turkey and Armenia. Armenia lost 90% of the territories assigned to it by Allies, and entire Cilicia. There are no Armenians left there, everyone was expelled or killed, even though they were a large autochtonic minority or majority there. Unlike Turks, which captured Balkans in late XIV and early XV century, Armenians were living in Van, Erzurum etc for 3000 years before expulsion, 2000 before Turks even showed up in Anatolia. And it was Armenia proper. Urartu is dead, there is no surviving nation that lived there before Armenians. There is no Turkey proper, everywhere You live Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians or Arabs were before You, but I guess it's inner Anatolia, places like Konya, Kayseri, Sivas, that are the places nobody else could seriously claim by history. Constantinople unfortunatelly You share in the importance to your national history with Greeks (I believe it's a tragedy, because it's hard to divide this city and only one side can have it).
Turks not only were a minority in most of the lands claimed by Armenians (as even today they are, SE of the country being kurdish and sometimes arabic), but these lands were unimportant for their history, except for Malazgirt perhaps. On the other hand, Tigranocerta, Van, Ani, Kars, Kozan (Sis) were all once capitals of Armenia, and Ararat (Agri) is its symbol. It's as if Syria took Konya and Kayseri, Bulgaria took Constantinople, and all You'd be left was, lets say, Izmir and Bursa.
I guess Armenians were unlucky to be located not only close to the centre of turkish nation, but also between Turks and the turkic lands of Azerbaycan, Turkmenia, Kazakhstan etc.

Kosovo - You are gravely mistaken, sir. (Muslim) Albanians run this province now, and only thanks to (nominally) christian West. There is no or almost no catholic minority there. There is a considerable catholic minority in Albania, but (nominal) muslims are still a majority there, the country's a democracy and I don't think muslims or Turks are persecuted in Kosovo or Albania.

So to sum up, If you are weak, somebody make an ethnicity problem for you even if you don't have one. I am all for good relations with Armenia. But I think Turkish goverment has to stand up for Azeris and Armenians should get out from the Karabag and also they have to say sorry because they litterally cut the Azerbaijan into 2.

Armenians lived in Karabach long before Azers, were and are the majority of its population. Why should Azerbaijan keep it?
Do You think Turks should "get out" of Cyprus and apologise for entering it (being much, much bigger than Cyprus and Greece together, occupying not only turkish-inhabited regions, but entire north of the island, in which the Greeks are the autochtons?)

 

[Kavkaz]

Nobody talks about what the Armenians and Russians were doing in the Caucasus prior to WWI.

My family was one of millions who had to escape to Anatolia during their occupation after living in the Caucasus for so many generations we couldn't even remember living anywhere else.

Why isn't anyone talking about the genocide that happened to us in the Caucasus? We don't have the same rights or we're not as human as Armenians or Slavs or Christians? Why is everyone talking about what happened to Armenians in WWI when they don't talk about what Armenia is doing today in the occupation of over 1/3rd of Azerbaijan?

These are all political games.

 

[EnlightenmentHK]

Why isn't anyone talking about the genocide that happened to us in the Caucasus? We don't have the same rights or we're not as human as Armenians or Slavs or Christians? Why is everyone talking about what happened to Armenians in WWI when they don't talk about what Armenia is doing today in the occupation of over 1/3rd of Azerbaijan?

These are all political games.

Because what happened there, quite simply, wasn't a genocide. These are not political games. These are fricken 'humanity' games. And in the years prior, during, and shortly after WW1, the Turkish/Ottoman government had very little of that humanity. And they shared their lack of humanity with Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks.

What you have right now is nationalistic pride eagerly slurping up revisionist propaganda in an effort to deny their own past atrocities. It is sickening, but typical. Ideally, neither Turkey nor others in their position would be respected or allowed near the 'big kids table' until these crimes are recognized and atoned for. (and its not like we're asking for much in the way of atonement) But of course we know that won't be the case. If realpolitik says we need you as an ally, we'll pretend that event never happened just as readily as you do. Same thing with Japan. And any others with horrific blights in their recent past who choose to belligerently pretend they never happened.

But at least it'll provide a fine excuse to keep Turkey out of the EU. Of course its not just an excuse. Its a 110% legitimate reason that should be diplomatically pounded home until the whole world gets sick of hearing it. But for the moment, it'll just be ammunition for parties who don't want to see Turkey near the EU under any circumstances.

And I say 'More power to them'. If Turkey insists on this stubborn denial and in giving political foes to their entrance into the EU this arsenal to hit them with, why not use it.

 

[Kavkaz]

Because what happened there, quite simply, wasn't a genocide. These are not political games. These are fricken 'humanity' games. And in the years prior, during, and shortly after WW1, the Turkish/Ottoman government had very little of that humanity. And they shared their lack of humanity with Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks.

What you have right now is nationalistic pride eagerly slurping up revisionist propaganda in an effort to deny their own past atrocities. It is sickening, but typical. Ideally, neither Turkey nor others in their position would be respected or allowed near the 'big kids table' until these crimes are recognized and atoned for. (and its not like we're asking for much in the way of atonement) But of course we know that won't be the case. If realpolitik says we need you as an ally, we'll pretend that event never happened just as readily as you do. Same thing with Japan. And any others with horrific blights in their recent past who choose to belligerently pretend they never happened.

But at least it'll provide a fine excuse to keep Turkey out of the EU. Of course its not just an excuse. Its a 110% legitimate reason that should be diplomatically pounded home until the whole world gets sick of hearing it. But for the moment, it'll just be ammunition for parties who don't want to see Turkey near the EU under any circumstances.

And I say 'More power to them'. If Turkey insists on this stubborn denial and in giving political foes to their entrance into the EU this arsenal to hit them with, why not use it.

"Enlightment" (for irony or..?)

Why don't you just admit that millions of Caucasian Muslims such as myself are not worth 1 Armenian and that you don't have any rational sense of humanity in you? I don't even have a homeland now unlike Armenians. All you care about is killing people off who don't support your interests. Just like millions of Greek Muslims were killed in Greece after its independence and millions of Bulgarian Muslims expelled after the Balkan Wars (over 500,000 alone in recently in the 1980's). They're not worth 1 Armenian or Greek Christian. Tell me how many mosques or Muslims are there in Armenia? ZERO! How many churches and Christians are in Turkey? Countless amounts of churches and over 100,000 ILLEGAL Armenian immigrant workers! My people were deported to gulags in Siberia or killed off by Soviet Armenians, who cares? You don't have an ounce of humanity in you, if you don't admit it in a post here admit it to yourself in a mirror!

 

[EnlightenmentHK]

Why don't you just admit that millions of Caucasian Muslims such as myself are not worth 1 Armenian

And this is why these discussions are pointless. You actually believe the crap above. Seriously, If I thought it was fair to call the Caucasian migrations a genocide I probably would. I mean look who the culprit would be. You think I or any other Westerner has an ounce of sympathy for Tsarist Russia? You think we wouldn't be eager to lay this at the feet of modern day Russia if we had the chance? Neither the Soviets, Tsarists, nor Putin's present day Russia is all that sympathetic.

But genocide is to some extent a crime of intent. And there was no evidence of an intention to wipe out the Caucuses population nor were methods calculated towards achieving that goal implemented on any significant scale. The pressures to migrate came from both Russia, the Ottomans, and from many of the locals. They didn't like the idea of living under a Tsarist state and I don't exactly blame them. The Ottomans didn't like the idea of their 'Muslim brothers' living under a brutal Christian state and would rather they resettle the outskirts of the Ottoman empire for matters of defense. And the Russians weren't keen on keeping what they figured would be a 'disloyal' population and wanted to resettle the lands with some of their own.

The result was a mass migration. Provisions were made to ease the hardships of the voyage, but of course as the numbers will tell you...not enough. There was force from the Russian side to push the migration along, but also provisions, cloths, some funds, and paid passage for some of the poorer families. The Ottomans encouraged the migrations, but didn't offer much in the way of provisions for the voyage or living in the empire afterwards on their side. Of course its quite possible that Russian 'provisions' were merely a drop in the bucket and used merely for PR. I don't have the actual figure. Although the numbers appear to be a few hundred thousand dead during the migration, which doesn't say much about those Russian 'provisions'.

But one of the key difference between this and say...the Armenian genocide? The caucuses population were being 'marched' to the Ottoman Empire. The Armenians were being marched to nowhere. They were not being 'resettled'. They were simply supposed to die. And the forces 'marching' them took every opportunity to make that a reality.

The Caucuses migration pretty easily qualifies as an ethnic cleansing. Even if the ottomans and some local priests encouraged it. But it is not a genocide.


I'm not sure where you got the 'millions' number for the Muslims killed after Greek Independence. Atrocities for the initial conflict seemed pretty widespread for both sides.

And the Soviets were quite indiscriminate with their gulags. They sent Muslims, Christians, Armenians, Caucuses, Azerbaijans, Ukranians, and just about everyone else. Given the scale and universal nature of it, people tend to condemn pogroms, purges, gulags, and atrocities as a whole rather than singling out any particular victim. But most people will acknowledge that Stalin was probably the greatest butcher of modern history.

Armenia wasn't in control of its own affairs until the fall of the Soviet Union. Hard to credit the absence of Muslims in the region entirely to them.

 

[Squonk]

I'd like to note one more thing, that there are muslims present in Caucasus today, they have their own states: independant, federal russian, or autonomic.
In comparison, there are hardly any Armenians left in former Armenia. This territory was completely cleansed. The difference between being completely eliminated and crippled is somewhat important.

 

[Kavkaz]

I'd like to note one more thing, that there are muslims present in Caucasus today, they have their own states: independant, federal russian, or autonomic.
In comparison, there are hardly any Armenians left in former Armenia. This territory was completely cleansed. The difference between being completely eliminated and crippled is somewhat important.

BS, there are over 100,000 illegal immigrant Armenian workers in Turkey and the Turkish government turns a blind eye instead of deporting them. There's not even a single mosque left in Armenia. Armenians have an independent state whereas my people the Karapapak (you haven't heard of us and probably don't give a damn) don't even have an "autonomous" state like other Caucasian peoples (they have "autonomous" states only in name, they're ruled directly by Moscow and want INDEPENDENCE).

You're all just trying to gain territory from Turks because you hate them so much, but when it comes to other people's genocides you don't give a damn about them! You just make excuse after excuse while calling other people deniers or fascists! Nobody cares that Armenians are doing genocide in Azerbaijan since the 1990s. I've been all over Turkey especially the east considering that's where some of my family fled to escape slaughter and enslavement, and I know what the Armenians and Russians are capable of. There are still prayer services to all the Caucasian civilian dead and memorials for relatives dying in Azerbaijan. Now they're making trouble on the Georgian border because there are Caucasian Muslims living there in peace, maybe they want to line them up and kill them as well! I can't believe the Turkish government is spending money to restore their churches although nobody uses them, whereas the Armenians make it a policy to erase mosques in their occupied territory. Until the genocide my people have suffered is recognized by the people who committed it (ARMENIAN & RUSSIAN Christians), and the two stop ethnic cleansing in Azerbaijan and Chechnya and Daghestan and the rest of the Caucasus, I'll never take a single word of your propaganda seriously. That's my reciprocal policy. I'm not going to reply anymore to you pseudo-humanists, nobody who's suffered under Russian and Armenian imperialism could be blind to your real agendas.

 

[Verbose]

BS, there are over 100,000 illegal immigrant Armenian workers in Turkey and the Turkish government turns a blind eye instead of deporting them.

But no legal, Turkish citizen, Armenians...

There's not even a single mosque left in Armenia. Armenians have an independent state whereas my people the Karapapak (you haven't heard of us and probably don't give a damn) don't even have an "autonomous" state like other Caucasian peoples (they have "autonomous" states only in name, they're ruled directly by Moscow and want INDEPENDENCE).

That's most regrettable, but what compells you to lay this at the doorstep of westerners, when it's clearly something to be taken up with the Turkish republic? Or the Russian, if you're worried about the Caucasus. And it's not exactly as if the Russians are happy with the western attitude of supporting all and sundry kinds of independant states in the Caucasus, over Russian interests in keeping these. (Of course, that includes Armenia, which would seem to blight everything in your eyes.)

In fact, since you, the Karapapak, as much as victims of Russians politics are also victims of the Turkish state's policies diected towards minorities, just like the Armenian or Kurds, one would in fact think you should recognise a common cause here.

You're all just trying to gain territory from Turks because you hate them so much, but when it comes to other people's genocides you don't give a damn about them!

Is this what the Turks tell you?

Your attitude is kind of baffling. Demand rights for all these small minorities in the Caucasus and the Balkans. Fine. Most of us westerners on this board would tend to agree you deserve it, at least in principle, at least autonomy.

But somehow it's all the wests fault that these people have been crushed between the first the imperial ambitions of Russia and Ottoman Turkey, and later by the nationalist Turkish republic and the Soviet Union. And you are living in Turkey, and complaining about treatment in fact received from Turkey, but somehow it's all the fault of Armenians, Russans and the west?

You'll have to forgive us for thinking the final tally doesn't add up.

Or is it that the real conflict here is between Christians and Muslims in your opinion?

 

[scy12]

all crimes should be recognized but some crimes are quite more brutal than others. The Armenian genocide is one of the biggest crimes of the last century along with the extermination of Pontic Greeks from mainland Turkey a state even today i would trust to repeat such crimes.

 

[Kavkaz]

But no legal, Turkish citizen, Armenians...

Ha where did you hear that? Every major city in Turkey has some Armenians. There are also hundreds of thousands of Armenian Muslims called Hemshin. Did you ever hear about the Turkish-Armenian man who burned himself alive in protest of Armenian terrorists bombing Turkish diplomats and their families in the 70's?

Speaking of legalities, in France you can go to prison for denying the so-called Armenian genocide, whereas in Turkey although people have been put on trial nobody has actually gone to jail for saying the genocide did happen. Freedom of speech? Hah. When the Algerian President was in France and demanded they recognize the Algerian genocide, the French threw a fit. So when I see other countries trying to force Turkey to recognize an alleged genocide, it just shows to me they're trying to cover up for their own crimes!

That's most regrettable, but what compells you to lay this at the doorstep of westerners, when it's clearly something to be taken up with the Turkish republic? Or the Russian, if you're worried about the Caucasus. And it's not exactly as if the Russians are happy with the western attitude of supporting all and sundry kinds of independant states in the Caucasus, over Russian interests in keeping these. (Of course, that includes Armenia, which would seem to blight everything in your eyes.)

Yeah Armenia seems to "blight" everything in my eyes, many of the Soviet officers running the Caucasus region during the deportations and slaughter of my people were ethnic Armenians! And why do you choose to ignore the fact that Armenia occupying and ethnic cleansing one THIRD of Azerbaijan at the present and has been since the 90's? They're not innocent little lambs you know.

In fact, since you, the Karapapak, as much as victims of Russians politics are also victims of the Turkish state's policies diected towards minorities, just like the Armenian or Kurds, one would in fact think you should recognise a common cause here.

Recognize a common a cause with the same people who have killed and are still killing my ethnic and religious kin? The policies are very different. Turkey had a Kurdish President in the early 90's, the Kurds have their own TV stations and media publications now. There is not even a single law saying Armenians can't speak their own language or live in Turkey. I challenge you to find one Mosque, one Turkish publication, one non-Armenian politician in Armenia today!

Your attitude is kind of baffling. Demand rights for all these small minorities in the Caucasus and the Balkans. Fine. Most of us westerners on this board would tend to agree you deserve it, at least in principle, at least autonomy.

"Us westerners", what is a westerner anyway? Such an outdated term. I was born and raised in the United States, my parents were on of the few people who managed to escape Soviet Georgia and make it to the Turkish border. Don't try to speak down on me as if I'm not fit to be at your "western doorstep" or whatever. Turkey has saved many people from massacres including Jews, Circassians, Chechens, Karapapaks, Azeris, Crimean Tatars, Bosnians, Turkish Cypriots, Ossetians, Bulgarian & Greek Muslims, and my family. My parents are doctors now.

But somehow it's all the wests fault that these people have been crushed between the first the imperial ambitions of Russia and Ottoman Turkey, and later by the nationalist Turkish republic and the Soviet Union. And you are living in Turkey, and complaining about treatment in fact received from Turkey, but somehow it's all the fault of Armenians, Russans and the west?

I'm not living in Turkey, I'm living in the US. Again you think Armenians and Russians have nothing to do with millions of Caucasians just randomly ending up starving in Siberia, or lying dead in the mountains, or becoming refugees, it's just a figment of my imagination! My great grandfather fought for Georgia against the Soviet invasion. You know where the medics found him? Under heaps of dead bodies in a ditch.

You'll have to forgive us for thinking the final tally doesn't add up.

Or is it that the real conflict here is between Christians and Muslims in your opinion?

You don't want to think "the final tally doesn't add up" because you prefer Armenians to Turks either racially, culturally, or religiously I don't know. Turkophobia is a very common condition. All I want is for people to be honest with themselves and just say it plainly "I hate Turks and/or Muslims" without playing all these little games. Instead of ignoring me when I say Armenia is occupying 1/3rd of Azerbaijan, just say "I'm glad Armenians are killing those Caucasian Muslim mongrels". Honesty is better.

Anyways it's not just between Christians and Muslims, because Russians also treat Georgians as bad as they treat us. My family lived in Georgia for so many generations in peace they couldn't remember living in any other country, until the Russians and Armenians came for everyone. Religion is just used by them. Like Armenians will tell people "Oh we were the first Christian state!" in order to gain support from Europe and the US against Caucasian and Turkish "infidels".

The fact is everyone who thinks Turkey is some backwards oriental fantasy world like its shown in Armenian or Greek propaganda, hasn't been to Turkey! Go see for yourself, personally I thought it much more civilized and also cleaner than most European countries I've visited. After seeing the country for myself I realized why Europeans want to take Turkish land so badly, it's just beautiful.

 

[EnlightenmentHK]

Recognize a common a cause with the same people who have killed and are still killing my ethnic and religious kin? The policies are very different. Turkey had a Kurdish President in the early 90's, the Kurds have their own TV stations and media publications now. There is not even a single law saying Armenians can't speak their own language or live in Turkey. I challenge you to find one Mosque, one Turkish publication, one non-Armenian politician in Armenia today!

Yeah, today they're fine, upstanding global citizens. As little as 20 years ago they were destroying kurdish villages and sending para-military death squads throughout the Kurdish sections of the country. As little as a few decades ago nothing could be broadcast or published in Kurdish, hell, much like the gays in Iran, the Turkish government didn't even acknowledge that any Kurds existed.

There has been a consistent, decades upon decades long policy of cultural annihilation against the Kurds. Their policies and tactics essentially created the PKK. And Kurdish language programming is still restricted. The only major reason they're allowed what they currently have is because Turkey wants to join the EU. Than of course there's Leyla Zana.

Not all of this crap is ancient history.

The fact is everyone who thinks Turkey is some backwards oriental fantasy world like its shown in Armenian or Greek propaganda, hasn't been to Turkey! Go see for yourself, personally I thought it much more civilized and also cleaner than most European countries I've visited. After seeing the country for myself I realized why Europeans want to take Turkish land so badly, it's just beautiful.

That you actually believe the bolded part suggests that you're clouded by your own local, revisionist propaganda. Do they actually say that crap on Turkish television? Do their politicians actually spout that nonsense?

Noone here and noone in the West has a problem with Turkish culture or anything of the sort. But they have been one of the more appalling governments from a Human rights perspective in the last century or so.

Actually, you should count yourself lucky that the US views Turkey as a strategic ally. Because as a result of that, Turkey has largely been given a pass in the international community for its horrid human rights history and more recent transgressions. Neither Turkey nor Egypt gets held to the same standards of other nations when it comes to human rights transgressions.

Why? Because America likes you.

 

[Squonk]

BS, there are over 100,000 illegal immigrant Armenian workers in Turkey and the Turkish government turns a blind eye instead of deporting them.

I don't know if I should take this seriously. Really, don't You understand the difference between having an indigenous population left, and having some illegal immigrants? It's like some Spaniard would say "BS, we didn't kick out the Moors, there are illegal Moroccan workers in Spain today", or as if catholics in Algeria and Tunisia claimed a direct descendance from the late-antiquity christians of roman Africa.

There's not even a single mosque left in Armenia. Armenians have an independent state whereas my people the Karapapak (you haven't heard of us and probably don't give a damn) don't even have an "autonomous" state like other Caucasian peoples (they have "autonomous" states only in name, they're ruled directly by Moscow and want INDEPENDENCE).

How numerous is your people? Were they indigenous? Was they a majority in a significant area? Is their language considered a language of its own, or is it considered a dialect (of Azeri)?

You're all just trying to gain territory from Turks because you hate them so much

Yeah, exactly. I bath in the blood of turkish virgins, and use poems of Yunus Emre as my toilet paper.

Nobody cares that Armenians are doing genocide in Azerbaijan since the 1990s.

I believe many Azeris fled or were expelled of Karabach, Zangezur etc. Sad indeed, and hopefully at least some will be able to come back if the peace is signed. But it's not comparable to 1915. Then, You've had a world power vs part of its population. Here, You've had two states. And they fought over a limited territory, while Ottomans in 1915 wanted entire Armenia (and got definite most of it). So while in 1915 existance of Armenia and Armenians was in peril, in 90's Azeris only risked loosing (and lost) some of Azerbaijan's territory (they were minority in majority of lost territory anyway). Also, Azeris had a place to flee, and they've had many an opportunity to massacre Armenians as well, even before the conflict.

I've been all over Turkey especially the east considering that's where some of my family fled to escape slaughter and enslavement, and I know what the Armenians and Russians are capable of.

When did they fled? What do your travels have to do with Armenians?

There are still prayer services to all the Caucasian civilian dead and memorials for relatives dying in Azerbaijan.

And?
Btw, how come memorials for relatives in Azerbaijan are so common? I don't think the links between both sides of soviet border were so strong to let local Turks or Kurds marry across the border. Or are there (illegal?) azeri immigrants as well?

I can't believe the Turkish government is spending money to restore their churches although nobody uses them, whereas the Armenians make it a policy to erase mosques in their occupied territory.

That's some suprise to me. Usually turkish policy towards churches, especially armenian, was to let them fall in ruins. If any were restored, it was done for tourism (If You mean Akdamar, it's UNESCO giving money, not Turkey anyway), or because they were turned into mosques. What are the churches You're talking about?

and the two stop ethnic cleansing in Azerbaijan and Chechnya and Daghestan and the rest of the Caucasus, I'll never take a single word of your propaganda seriously. That's my reciprocal policy. I'm not going to reply anymore to you pseudo-humanists, nobody who's suffered under Russian and Armenian imperialism could be blind to your real agendas.

Armenian imperialism I wonder what Karapapak imperialism would look like.
I don't understand what You mean. I wholeheartly support Chechenia. Poland does, in general. There's a roundabout dedicated to Dudayev in Warsaw, and Chechenians receive help here more than anywhere else in Europe I guess.
When it comes to Russian imperialism, it's hurted Armenia as well. Armenians of Nachiczewan were forced out and weren't let back in under early Soviet Union.

Ha where did you hear that? Every major city in Turkey has some Armenians. There are also hundreds of thousands of Armenian Muslims called Hemshin. Did you ever hear about the Turkish-Armenian man who burned himself alive in protest of Armenian terrorists bombing Turkish diplomats and their families in the 70's?

How many armenian citizens are there left in Turkey? A couple thousands out of two millions or so. Muslim Armenians are a different matter. You know as well as I do that millets were above all religious affiliations, that greek-speeking muslims were considered Turks, as well as turkish-speaking orthodox were considered Greeks. The same, btw of dealing with Armenians Assyrians were hurt, but muslim Armenians no.

 

[Humpty Dumpty]

I do find it suspiciously odd that United States House came up with a bill that affirm a recognition of the Armenian Genocide and then cleverly postpone it indefinitely until after Turkey act in a more pro-active role in the affairs in northern Iraq. It is, I suspect, a political strategy to reward Turkey of a possible symbolic victory of having United States siding with them to justify their denial of their past crimes.

I do want to question that why is it that people who want Turkey to recognize the genocide when in fact it was not something that Turkey had committed since they are not even the Ottoman Empire anymore?

 

[~Corsair#01~]

I do find it suspiciously odd that United States House came up with a bill that affirm a recognition of the Armenian Genocide and then cleverly postpone it indefinitely until after Turkey act in a more pro-active role in the affairs in northern Iraq. It is, I suspect, a political strategy to reward Turkey of a possible symbolic victory of having United States siding with them to justify their denial of their past crimes.

The Turks are in Iraq because of their own sinister motives regarding the Kurds. The EU wants them out, Iraq wants them out and the USA probably does too.

I do want to question that why is it that people who want Turkey to recognize the genocide when in fact it was not something that Turkey had committed since they are not even the Ottoman Empire anymore?

Turkey is the Ottoman empire's successor state and the atrocities were committed by Turks.


I really cannot comprehend the Turkish position on this. They seem to think that the westerners want to attack their country in order to justify murderous acts against the Turks or hate of the Turks. This is simply not true. We simply want Turkey to recognise that this happened (on roughly the scale which historians say it happened on) and that it was wrong, because this is the first necessary step towards reconciliation.

Every country's government has done murderous things in the past. Germany to the Jews and Slavs, Croatia to the Serbs, the Serbs to ever other race on Earth , Russia to the Ukrainians (and a million others), France and Britain to various ethnic minorities in their countries at various times (and to virtually every country they colonised), Japan to the whole of East Asia, Australia to the aborigines..... The list goes on forever.

When the Turks deny the genocide, or attempt to justify it, they are sending several very clear messages:
-The Armenians still in Turkey, and possibly those outside it should be hated or killed.
-Similar activities elsewhere were acceptable, and will continue to be acceptable in the present day against anyone who the Turks or their allies want to take land from.
-Turkey is not a free country and the people there are not told the truth, nor they can be expected to follow moral standards which the UN holds every country to.

Croatia is not allowed to join the EU because of its refusal to acknowledge that large numbers of Serbs (about the same number as Armenians killed by the Turks) were massacred during World War 2. This is how the entire world is treated if they refuse to apologise for the past, because a refusal to apologise is the same as saying that what happened was acceptable.