The Argentineans: I need help

[CivArmy s. 1994]

check http://www.civ3.com.br/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52123&sid=6dacfdbc95b0af7c72af729742238941#52123 to download this civ

Civ Name: The Argentine.
Bonuses: Commercial and Agricultural (C3C) and Commercial and Militaristic (Vanilla and PTW).
Title and Leader Name: General José de San Martín.
Favorite and Shunned Government: Republic and Fascism (C3C) and Republic and Monarchy (Vanilla and PTW).
Aggression Level: 03 (moderate).
Culture Group: American.
Noun: Argentine.
Adjective: Argentine
Default and Alternative colors: Light Blue (the same of The Americans) and Dark Blue (the same of the Germans).
Unique Unit: Pucará (replace Fighter).
Civilopedia entry: RACE_ARGENTINE

Cities list:
Buenos Aires
Salta
Rosario
Córdoba
Mendoza
Paraná
Santa Fe
Santiago del Estero
Jujuy
Corrientes
La Plata
Mar del Plata
Santa Rosa
San Luis
La Rioja
Catamarca
Formosa
Resistencia
San Juan
Posadas
Viedma
Rawson
Comodoro Rivadavia
Venado Tuerto
Rafaela
Rio Gallegos
Rio Grande
Ushuaia
Trelew
Puerto Madryn
San Nicolás
Pilar
GualeguayChu
Neuquén
Concepción del Bermejo
Puerto Egmont
San Fernando del Valle
Chuquisaca
Huaquí
San Miguel de Tucuman
Rio Cuarto
Bahia Blanca
Mar del Plata
Viedma
San Carlos de Bariloche
Puerto Santa Cruz
Ushuaia
Misiones
Beuguen
Rio Negro
Salta
Concordia
Junín
San Isidro
Vicente López
Tandil
La Matanza
Formosa
Pergamino
Olavaria
Luján
Zárate

Military leaders:
Barlotomé Mitre
Mariano Moreno
Juan Domingo Perón
General Cornelio de Saavedra
José de San Martín
Martín Güemes
Manuel Belgrano
Juan Manuel de Rosas
Yrigoyen
San Tiago de Liniers

Scientific Leaders:
César Milstein
Bernardo Houssay
Jorge Luis Borges
Aldo Ferrer
Cosme Argerich
René Favaloro
Salvador Mazza
Luis Federico Leloir

You can find images preview and the the Civilopedia in some posts of this same topic.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Well I already made the Super Etendardde almost 8 months ago.
http://cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?t=3970

 

[jorde]

Originally posted by CivArmy s. 1994
PS: I know Montevideo and Asuncion do not lie in Argentina, but they were part of this nation in colonial times.

Wrong... the only time they were part of the same thing was when Bs Aires, Mdeo and Asuncion were Spanish colonies...

Even at that times, both Mdeo and Bs Aires were rival colonies, as they were the two most important ports of the region (Virreinato de Asuncion if I'm not mistaken)

At the beginning of Buenos Aires' independence, I'm pretty sure Mdeo. was kept by the Spanish crown, and so the rivalry got stronger...

I could go on for hours about this matter, but that's just to clarify that situation (that neither Mdeo and Asuncion were part of Argentina... and neither was Colonia del Sacramento) I think you should also revise that city list, as there are many other cities that should be in it (and there are some that seem not to)



Besides, I think the civ should be called just Argentina, and if you're focusing so much on the colonial times as it seems, you could think of using San Martin, Rosas or some other colonial leader as the civ leader (I dont know much of Argentinian history after its independence)

Other good choice (and probably better than Evita) would be Juan Domingo Peron...

Oh, and I dont like a civ with a plane as a UU... there are probably some colonial (or not) units to be used (if you were making an Uruguayan civ, I'd choose the Blandengues soldier for example)

And well... there are probably more things to correct, but that are the ones that I noticed the most right now..

 

[Licinio]

Ok, it is a nice idea, I would start by my own the ARGENTINIAN( Not Argentinean!!) civilization. I do even have a leaderhead( Dictator Juan Manoel Rosas)made.

Suggested bonuses: Militarist and Commercial, or Agricultural and Commercial. Argentina only atarted to have a real navy after the Paraguay's War, also known as the Triple Alliance War(1864-1870), so, it can't be seafaring.

Suggested leader: Juan Manoel Rosas or Bartolomé Mitre. If you don't know who they are, stop the project right now and start thinking on something else, because the ARGENTiNIAN people will get mad at you.

Argentine has lot of cities, you dont have to put the capital of Paraguay and Uruguay in the city list.

Evita and Maradona as scientific leaders? In case you don't know, there are ARGENTINIAN Nobel winners. But I don't know they're names, you just have to look around.

And more: Rosas was an argentinian leader when the country was already sovereign, free.

And much more: In Civilization III, what matters is the time when the civilization was free, independent. That is why in the USA civilopedia, it speaks so little of it's colonial period.

P.S.: You are going to make a better civilopedia, aren't you?

 

[CivArmy s. 1994]

Thanks for the suggestions, so, I'll change some topics and have some explains:
- I looked for "Argentinos" in English dictonary and found Argentineans, not Argentinians. The Microsoft Word corretor said the same. Maybe exist the 02 ways are right.
- Motevideo, Assunción and Colonia de Sacramento will be removed to city list to evite a international incidente .
- Domingo Peron was not a kind of Getúlio Vargas in Argentina, it's like, a dictador? To name a dictador like the great leader of a nation is not a good idea, except in specifics eras mods when the dictador had the power. Juan Pablo Rosas was another, I'm afraid to offend the Argentinean people naming a dictador like great leader. I'll searching Bartolomeu Mitre information, maybe he is a good choose.
- San Martins and Rosas will be added to leaders lists, are they militaristics???
- I put Maradonna and Evita like scientific leader, because they were important people in their nation, if they are not a military one, the option is put them like a scientific one.
- The bonuses Commercial and Militaristics appear adequate to this civ, I know the Argentinean army is investing a lot of money and technologies to reorganize itself, it has started after it was defeated in Malvina's War. An UU could appear here, maybe a unique "army" unit. There is a link 3 messages above leaving to a mounted UU, maybe someone that replace Cavalry is a good idea.
- The civilopedia was not done, I'm just organizing the topics that will be explored.
- I also found suggestions (cities, bonuses...) in other forums around the Net, soon I'll post the news here.

I'm waiting for more suggestion. Thanks u all!

Daniel.

 

[Licinio]

I am back again...

Ok, lets see...

You must look in all history of the civ. It doenst matter if now Argentina is a weak military coutry, buti n the XIX Century, they were kind "angry".

What if take off Maradona and Evita and look after the Nobel award winners taht I told before?

San Martin and Rosas were born with a saltpeeter in they're blood.

Bartolomé Mitre was a military commander, war hero ans presidente elected. A hero, nothing more to say.

Why don 't search for a cavalry type of unit to be Argentina's UU?

 

[CivArmy s. 1994]

I'm looking for information, I have started this Civ at 22:00h of 28 february (Brasilia time) and right now, 12:45h of 29 de february I found cool stuffs to be used. I'm just starting, will be too many changes before the project closed.
- The mounted UU appears the best option, I'll looking for information about the Super Etendardde.
- If a put Maradonna and Evita out of scientific list, where I can put them?
- Bartolomé Mitre appears a good choice to great leader. If you have pictures, photos, please, post. Do you suggest more options?

Regards!

 

[alejandro-magno]

Perhaps you´d like to investiga a little before starting?
Let me point some thins out, as i´m a history buff.

First, some chronology:

1810: Revolución de Mayo: Viceroy deposed an replaced with a local Junta (council). The Junta is divided between Saavedristas (conservatives) and morenistas (independentists). Moreno is sent to Europe to buy british weapons and is killed while traveling by Saavedra´s Agents.

1810-1820s: Independence War. San Martín Leads the Army over to Chile and Perú, liberating the South of South AMerica.In Ecuador he meets Bolivar, Liberator of Northern South America. Other Important Campaigns: Paraguay, leaded by Manuel Belgrano, a gret patriot, but useless as a military leader, and the Salta Campaign, leaded by Güemes, stopping Royalist Advance in the Northwest.

1816: Declaration Of Independence in Tucumán
1820s to 1850s: Civil War Period. The Caudillos (No exact translations, maybe chieftains) from several provinces fight to institute a federal republic. Important leaders from this time ar Justo José de Urquiza, Cacho Peñaloza, Facundo Quiroga, and Juan Manuel de Rosas (Governor of Buenos Aires, and de facto ruler of the rest of the country). Rosas Is defeated in 1852 by Urquiza, who betrayed him.
In 1853, the Argentine Constitution is sanctioned, but it does not ensure democracy and all presidents until 1916 (inluding "heroes" as Sarmiento, Mitre and Roca) are elected thanks to fraud. During this period the biggest wars are against Paraguay (War of the Triple Alliance) and against the aborigines in the south (Conquista del Desierto, the genocide that sent Gral. ROca to Presidency)

20th Century

Democracy lasts until 1930 (after Yrigoyen, Alvear, Yrigoyen Agian from the Radical Party). Gral Uriburu leads a coup that re-institutes fraud until 1943. In this year a new coup takes power and rules until early 1946. Juan Domingo Peron is Secretary of Labour, Minister of War and Vice President during this period, and after several labour reforms he is DEMOCRATICALLY elected President in 1946. He rules until 1955 in a populist-authoritarian way, after being re-elected in 1952. He is then deposed by yet another COup in 1955, the so-called Revolución Libertadora, which proceeded to assasinate dozens of peronist leaders, and even prohibiting to say the word "Peron" in Public. In 1958 Arturo Frondizi is elected president with the votes of the proscripted peronist party. He is deposed after meeting Che Guevara in Punta del Este in 1962, but the military doest assume command. Senator Guido takes power and paves the way for new presidential elections in 1963, when Arturo Illía is elected with about 25% of the vote. After several nationalistic reforms he is deposed by yet another coup, the Revolución Argentina. Gral Onganía is the new presidency, but after popular pressure (mass demonstrations and riots in 1969) he resigns in 1970. It is about this time when the Peronist-Socialist Guerrilla groups Uturuncos, FAR, FAP, ERP and Montoneros start operating in Argentina. The next miltary presidents (Levingston and Lanusse) fall because of civil unrest, and they call for elections iun 1973, permitting the peronist party (but not peron to run). Cámpora, the peronist candidate, wins and few months later calls for new free elections which Peron wins. He is president until his death in 1974 and is succeeded by his third wife, María Estela Martínez de Perón (NOT EVITA, who was dead since 1952). She rules until 1976 when the militay again takes power. DUring the early 70´s the violence of leftist guerilla groups intensifies and is met by right wing terrorist groups (as the AAA, creation of José Lopez Rega, personal secretary of Perón). The military governs the country until 1983, after 30.000 political assasinations, a world cup and the Malvinas War. In 1983, Raúl Alfonsín is democratically elected. He is succeeded by Carlos Menem in 1989, whose neoliberal economic proceedures (helped by rampant corruption) ruins argentine industry, making argentine economy enter a downward spiral after the mexican crisis. In 1999 De la Rua is elected, but resigns after his innefiency fails to stop economic crisis in late 2001. After 5 interim presidents Nestor Kirchner wins the 2003 election.

Phew, guess it might be a bit complex, but will help for pedia text, and explanations.

Bonuses: I´d say Agricultural and Commercial or Industrious.

Aggression Level: It should be VERY low, as no democratically elected Argentine president has ever declared war.

Adjective: I´d say Argentine

UU: Maybe one of the planes, Gaucho, another cavalry (I know quite little of military technology), a Montonero Guerilla, or the Exocet Missile (I know it´s not an argentine design, but we adapted it to be fired from planes and was ley to our Air Force during Malvinas, as they were used to sink several british ships (Sheffield, Ardent, Atlantic Conveyor, Plymouth, Sir Galahad, Sir Tristan)

Cities:
Buenos Aires
Salta
Rosario
Cordoba
Mendoza
Parana
Santa Fe
Santiago del Estero
Jujuy
Corrientes
La Plata
Mar del Plata
Santa Rosa
San Luis
La Rioja
Catamarca
Formosa
Resistencia
San Juan
Posadas
Viedma
Rawson
Comodoro Rivadavia
Venado Tuerto
Rafaela
Rio Gallegos
Rio Grande
Ushuaia
Trelew
Puerto Madryn
San Nicolás
Pilar
GualeguayChu
Neuquen

All important cities nowadays.

Military Leaders: NOT CAVALLO AND MENEM (Cavallo was a crazy economist hated by 99.9% of Argentine society, Menem by 75%)

My list would be:

José de San Martín
Martín Güemes
Manuel Belgrano
Juan Domingo Peron
Juan Manuel de Rosas

Scientific Leaders:

César Milstein (Medicine Nobel Prize Winner)
Bernardo Houssay (Another Medicine Nobel Prize Winner)
Jorge Luis BOrges (best Argentine writer of the 20th Century)
Aldo Ferrer (Economist)

Hope it helps, i´d sure like to play this Scenario

 

[alejandro-magno]

I forgot, the Great leader should be one of 3:

Gral. Miguel de San Martín: As a historical Military Leader, would make everybody happy.

Gral. Juan Domingo Peron: As the Founder of the biggest political movement in argentina, and the 20th century´s most important political leader.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara: In a poetical and metaphorical sense

 

[CivArmy s. 1994]

Alejandro Magno, thanks for all the info! I have some doubt, maybe you could help me:
The below list was suggested for me in other forums and it is the result of my research, there is any error with the city names? This city could complete the suggested list by you.

Concepción del Bermejo
Puerto Egmont
San Fernando
Chuquisaca
Huaquí
San Miguel de Tucuman
Rio Cuarto
Bahia Blanca
Mar del Plata
Viedma
San Carlos de Bariloche
Puerto Santa Cruz
Ushuaia
Misiones
Beuguen
Rio Negro
Salta

What do you think about this complement?

I’m looking for a good UU, I found this options:
- Pucará, Argentine (or Argentineans or Argentinians) plane used in Falklands War that destroyed too many British naval units. I think it is the better chose right now, but it can change. This unit may replace Fighter or Jet Fighter.
- Coberta A.R.A., a military ship.
- The Super Etendardde is a plane, not a mounted unit how I expected, but it is a French airplane, so, it is out (for the time being).
Alejandro, I’d like more info and images about the UU that you suggested, if you have it, please post.

Oh, my mistake had putted Cavallo and Menem like militaristic leaders, I think they are scientific one. What do you think?

About the great leader: My two favor options are Bartolomé Mitre and Gral. Miguel de San Martín, I don’t know their history, but I they are the most quoted by forums participants. Domingo Peron and Che Guevara are polemic, like put Getúlio Vargas or Chico Mendes like Brazilian leader (disagree someone and agree others).





So, the info upgrade results (17:50h, Brasília time, 29 of February):

Civ Name: The Argentines.
Bonuses: Commercial and Militarists (or Agricultural).
Title and Leader Name: Barlotomé Mitre or Miguel de San Martín.
Favorite and Shunned Government: Republic and Fascism.
Aggression Level: 03 (moderate).
Culture Group: American.
Noun: Argentines.
Adjective: Argentine.
Default and Alternative colors: Light Blue (the same of The Americans) and Dark Blue (the same of the Germans).
Unique Unit: Pucará (national airplane that fought bravely in Malvina or Falkland War). Maybe Coberta A.R.A. (a military ship) or another one.
Civilopedia entry: RACE_ARGENTINES

Cities list:

Buenos Aires
Salta
Rosario
Cordoba
Mendoza
Parana
Santa Fe
Santiago del Estero
Jujuy
Corrientes
La Plata
Mar del Plata
Santa Rosa
San Luis
La Rioja
Catamarca
Formosa
Resistencia
San Juan
Posadas
Viedma
Rawson
Comodoro Rivadavia
Venado Tuerto
Rafaela
Rio Gallegos
Rio Grande
Ushuaia
Trelew
Puerto Madryn
San Nicolás
Pilar
GualeguayChu
Neuquén
Concepción del Bermejo
Puerto Egmont
San Fernando
Chuquisaca
Huaquí
San Miguel de Tucuman
Rio Cuarto
Bahia Blanca
Mar del Plata
Viedma
San Carlos de Bariloche
Puerto Santa Cruz
Ushuaia
Misiones
Beuguen
Rio Negro
Salta


Military leaders:
Mariano Moreno
Juan Domingo Perón
General Cornelio de Saavedra
José de San Martín
Martín Güemes
Manuel Belgrano
Juan Manuel de Rosas

Scientific Leaders:
Evita Perón
Diego Maradonna
Carlos Menem
Domingo Cavallo
César Milstein
Bernardo Houssay
Jorge Luis Borges
Aldo Ferrer

Topics of the Civilopedia:
- It must be complete, but not too big. If there is any important topic not listed, please, advise me. PS: Below are present just the topics, not the official text.
- Discovery by Spanish: 1514. They are looking for the Pacific Ocean.
- The Native Indians started trade with the new inhabitants, so they were killed and by the same people. The survives have changed to Christians and married with the Europeans. What is the mainly races of the native Indians??? Tupis?
- Silver extraction was the principal activity in colonial times. The ports were numerous and were used to many routes.
- The Independence process starts in 1776, when the English wanted free trade in South American ports and finish in 1816, when the Rebel Government from Buenos Aires finally defeat the Spanish army based in the interior of the colony. In these Independence times happened wars between Spanish, English and Buenos Aires inhabitants. Some historical figures appear in this period, like San Martín, hero of the Argentine Independence.
- In 1816 the republic was declared. The nation is organized and met some internal and external conflicts.
- Between WWII end and the military dictatorship: Perionist Period and disputes by the power, between this party, army and other new parties, some them radicals against the Perionists.
- The military dictatorship happened between 1976 and 1983. It was supported by USA government. But, why Army took the power???
- Today: the country has some economical problems, result of a plan that fixed Peso exchange rate with the Dollar. Argentina has sunflower seeds, lemons, soybeans, grapes, corn, tobacco, peanuts, tea and wheat crops, base industries and tourism activities. The life is heavy based in its capital, Buenos Aires.
- The Argentinean Civilization has the bonuses Commercial (since the colonial times, the nation was used exclusivity to economical activities) and militaristic (the army won heavy investments after the defeat in Malvina War). What do you think??? I think Commercial it is okay, the second one I’m divided between Militaristic and Agricultural.


Below appear some UU candidates, this image will be upgrade always I meet a new one.

 

[jamesjkirk]

alejandro-magno, or anyone who knows for that matter, could you tell me, or point me somewhere where I could find some info of the indiginous tribes that were wiped out by Argentina? I'm making a scen set in the late 19th century, and want to have Argentina expand southward, but don't know the names and locations of the tribes down there. Thanks.

 

[alejandro-magno]

CivArmy: PLEASE DELETE MENEM AND CAVALLO!!! They´re no geniuses or leaders, they´re hated! Tey finished the ruination of this country! Menem is an IDIOT! He said he liked reading Socrates (who wrote no books)! Cavallo confiscated the lifetime savings of millions of argentines to save his banker friends!

Sorry for the shouting, but i wanted to make a strong point.

Govts: I would make communism the shunned government, as most people didn´t do a thing about the last dictatorship but deeply fear any kind of leftist reform.

Traits: You´re right, we´ve always depended on the foreign market, so commercial is trait one, as our exports were mostly grain and beef agricultural should be trait 2.

Leader: You should put San Martin. Although he is largely a creation of Mitre (who was also a historian, in fact he "invented" most of early argentine history), he was the great military hero of the independence wars. As for peron, I´m not a peronist myself, I just think he was the most important political leader of the 20th Century.

Cities: most of your cities are in the list i posted, and take out Chuquisaca, Puerto Egmont, Huaqui, Concepción del bermejo, and Puerto Santa Cruz, Beuguen and Rio Negro. They are either unimportant today, unexistent or a typo (Beuguen=Neuquén?).

UU: I´d say a plane, as our pilots were the great heroes during Malvinas. In contrast, our navy mainly lost a ship (the Belgrano Cruiser, which was a piece of junk, I think).

JamesJKirk: I´ll research a bit. Mapuches were located in the southern Andes, and Tehuelches in the Patagonian mesa. Tierra del Fuego was inhabited by Onas and Yamanas. I´ll look for a map.

 

[Licinio]

For the last time:

- Forget about Evita and Maradona.

-It is Argentinians( Argentinos) and not Argentine or Argentines( there is no such word in english). Argentina is Argentina in Brazil and USA.

-Adjective: Argentinian( Argentino)

I trully don't recomend you doing a civilization that for what I've saw by now that you know so little about.

I was thinking on giving to you my Rosas's leaderhead that I have done, so that I wouldnt have to make an Argentina civilization. But as you are going to choose another leader, I 'll have to make my own Argentina( humm...).

P.S..: Please, please!!! Dont post everthing about the civlization everytime that you make a change!! It just takes too much space. just change the first message and tell everybody. That's all.

 

[alejandro-magno]

I guess i´ll make mine too, licinio, so we can later compare our 3 different versions. I´ll post it soon.

 

[CivArmy s. 1994]

The day was produtive, I learned a lot of about Argentinean history in few hours! My Microsoft Word corretor and the dictonary continue saying "Argentinos" = "Argentineans", the word "Argentine" is accepted by M. Word. I typed on Google and Yahoo the three words (Argentineans, Argentinians and Argentine), appeared a lot of sites, so, I guess the three ways are correct.
Hey, we can use like a code: The Argentineans Civ is build by myself, The Argentinians Civ by Licinio and The Argentine by Alejandro Magno.
I decide:
- use Miguel de San Martín like great leader;
- the combo Commercial and Agricultural;
- put Menen, Cavallo, Evita Peron and Maradonna out of the leader lists;
- Pucará like UU (replace Jet Fighter) and
- The shunned government continues Facism (I know a little about the horror of Argentinean military dictadorship)

I think that's all for today, I'm waiting for more replays, suggestions, opinions... Advice me when you two put your Civs in the forums.

Alejandro, when I was doing my another Civ, The Tupis, I read that they inhabitant the norther of Argentina and Paraguay, this info could help you in your research.

Regards!

 

[alejandro-magno]

This is nice!!!!!!!

The ARGENTINE Civ

I decide This:

Leader: Che Guevara, Peron or Evita (I made a leaderhead for Che, look in my sig)
Traits: I choose Agricultural and Commercial too
Leader lists to be defined
UU: Exocet Missile (read previous post) If the Dutch UU is Swiss, the Argentine Unit will be French
Replaces Cruise Missile

Shunned Govt: Communism (it is "even more shunned")

Should we make separate Threads?

 

[alejandro-magno]

And if I´m using Che Guevara as leader shunning communism makes no sense.

D´oh!

 

[CivArmy s. 1994]

That is okay if we use the same combo Commercial and Agricultural. In PTW and Vanilla version I'll use Commercial and Militaristc.
Maybe this week I post the images preview of the UU and leader.
We can made in the future other leader, like Che Guevara, it could be used to other civs and scenarios, no necessary in Argentinean mods.

regards!

 

[nacho]

For UU I think you should use the Granadero a Caballo, a cavalry regiment created by Jose de San Martin.

Great Leaders:
Liniers
Moreno
San Martin
Belgrano
Alvear
Rosas (the Peron of 19th century)
Urquiza (he defeated Rosas)
Yrigoyen
Perón
Evita

Scientific Leaders:
Cosme Argerich
René Favaloro (the father of by-pass surgery)
Salvador Mazza
Bernardo Houssay (Nobel)
Luis Federico Leloir (Nobel Prize, chemistry)
César Milstein (Nobel)

And cities:
Buenos Aires
Córdoba
Rosario
La Plata
Mendoza
Mar del Plata
San Miguel de Tucumán
Paraná
Salta
Santa Fe
Bariloche
Bahía Blanca
Comodoro Rivadavia
Neuquén
San Luis
San Juan
Corrientes
San Salvador de Jujuy
Ushuaia
La Rioja
San Fernando del Valle
Concordia
Resistencia
Viedma
Rawson
Río Cuarto
Junín
San Isidro
Vicente López
Tandil
La Matanza
Formosa
Pergamino
Olavaria
Luján
Zárate
San Nicolás

 

[alejandro-magno]

NICE SIG NACHO!!!!! (que loco, loco)

and the idea of the granadero is cool.
Might use it.

CivArmy, about che guevara, i really mean it in a poetical sense, so it will be the leader of my arg-civ.