The BetterAI challenge!

[sveint]

It looks like the BetterAI project is finally starting to mature, so how about a challenge against the new and improved computer players? What better way to show off this superb work?

First of all, this will be slightly different from any other challenge I've read (I read them all, very enjoyable). The settings will be:

Monarch difficulty
Fractal map
Epic Speed
Random leader

What does this mean? Well, on a fractal map you never know where you are or what the world looks like. It could be any number of continents (but never the 'square' ones you see in the "Continents" setting) - we even risk being stranded on our own island! Furthermore, it's impossible to determine a strategy until we see which leader we are. Finally, Monarch is more than hard enough (I played Emperor before BetterAI).

Incidentially, this is how I play most of my games. I prefer the challenge of a more uncertain start. I am able to win I'd say about 2 out of 3 of the games against the BetterAI like this, but sometimes it all goes horribly wrong. It will be interesting and hopefully not too humbling to see what happens in my very first public game...

I intend to get started very soon. Any and all comments are welcome. Be forewarned, my playstyle is slightly different from most. I never restart until I lose, hence (for example) I value archery more than most.

Let the games begin!

 

[sveint]

Well, what can I say? Not a Civ I'd volunteer to play. No economic bonuses at all! I suppose when it comes to handling barbarians and war, offensive or defensive, we do have an advantage.

At least the starting position isn't looking too bad.

 

[sveint]

Chapter 1: 4000 BC to 3000 BC

Since we would have lost a turn if we wanted to found our city anywhere but right on top of the corn, I decided to settle in place. From what we could see it should make a good location.

Our warrior took off exploring and soon encountered our first opponent.

Facing a Creative civ can be annoying in the early game, but at least he shouldn't try to attack us too soon - I hope.

Further exploration revealed some marble nearby which we should probably try to grab before the Romans. We also got 71 gold from a hut, while Buddhism and Hinduism were founded somewhere. Sadly, our exploration would soon come to an end.

Once our capital produced it's worker (I always start with a worker unless there is nothing to improve), we had no option but to build a warrior. I really dislike building warriors but beyond starting on a barracks we didn't really have any option. At least with the Aggressive trait it will stand a fighting chance against animals and barbarian warriors - perhaps we might even be able to promote him to a medic.

Situation at 3000 BC

Tech's researched: Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Mining (underway)

What should we research next? Once Mining is done, we have the basic worker techs we need, except Masonry. Should we build any wonders? I don't really feel a need for the Great Wall since we are both Aggressive and Protective, despite having stone almost ready to go.

The 2nd city should probably go somewhere near the marble, but where exactly? Incidentially it is near where we met the Roman archer, so he cannot be too far away.

 

[Galileo44]

good idea!

my opinion:
1st city 1E of the Marble
2nd city grassland 1NE of Western clams (get soon and whip like crazy)

after that, look for what is near the eastern pigs and the northern fish. you need to get some exploring done all around.

 

[Polycrates]

Great idea for a game!
I'm currently playing the exact same settings myself on BetterAI, except with chosen leader (cheater!)
It's good fun and a good deal harder - especially early warmaking, so the aggressive (and probably protective) bonus will be a big help!

I'd also be inclined to settle 1east of the marble, although there's a case for 2 east if you researched fishing now, so you can get some serious growth asap.

My research plan would definitely be Bronze Working next. You've got lots of food, to favour slavery; you've got a few trees to chop; but most importantly, you want to see if you can get copper for your 3rd city. Aggressive means you can do a good early axe rush (even against creative), and you would be extra well served doing it against Rome, before they have a chance at nabbing Praetorians.
You don't have any economic bonuses, so to avoid getting totally lost in the tech game, I'd then go wheel (if you can find any reasonably-placed copper or even horses) then writing to build a few libraries and (especially if you've got more neighbours) use scientists to go towards alphabet and trade tech (and extort it from Augustus), hopefully get polytheism and masonry in trade then go for literature to really make use of that marble.

I agree that you need to try to get some more scouting done quickly too, so we can see what you've got.

 

[sveint]

Good advice on city placement. I think the first city would have to be just east of the marble. Why? It'd get to use pigs, which is better than wheat, and the creative Romans will be very unlikely to culturally take over the marble.

Two east of the marble is good too, but building the workboat would take as long as a monument, and I'm afraid we'd give up the pigs and possibly even the marble.

As for techs, I am leaning towards Hunting and Archery. Why? Because after the current warrior we could complete those techs while building our first settler and start pumping out protective archers to explore and defend against barbarians. They can handle anything that comes our way until axemen.

Now we could go the popular route of Bronze Working, but it's a bit of a gamble. What if there's no bronze? And even if there is, we'd need to get a city down and connect it, leaving us with warriors for a long while. And I'm not sure early war is wise, we need to know which other neighbours if any we have.

There is a third option for research - Masonry. We could build one settler and immediately try to build the Great Wall. Then barbarians would be a non-issue and we could focus on either economic development or an early war, leaving our non-frontlines with only a single warrior each.

As for more exploration, we're about to get a single warrior but I'm afraid he'd just get killed, and we could possibly use him to escort a settler if we build one right away. If we do send him to explore I suppose we could build a barracks and let the city grow before we build something to escort our first settler with.

 

[sveint]

By the way, the reason I am afraid of an early war is because I've learnt the hard way that if Montezuma or Shaka are near... better prepare to fight them and befriend anyone else if we want to survive.

 

[shyuhe]

One quick comment. The plains hill to the SE of where you founded your capital might have been worth the 1 turn delay since you get a permanent 1 hammer bonus in your capital. I think it also gets the freshwater bonus too... (although it makes the coastal tiles useless). Just some food for thought on city placements

 

[suspendinlight]

One quick comment. The plains hill to the SE of where you founded your capital might have been worth the 1 turn delay since you get a permanent 1 hammer bonus in your capital. I think it also gets the freshwater bonus too... (although it makes the coastal tiles useless). Just some food for thought on city placements

I'm pretty sure you would not get the freshwater bonus. Rivers don't work diagonally.

 

[Polycrates]

Good advice on city placement. I think the first city would have to be just east of the marble. Why? It'd get to use pigs, which is better than wheat, and the creative Romans will be very unlikely to culturally take over the marble.

Two east of the marble is good too, but building the workboat would take as long as a monument, and I'm afraid we'd give up the pigs and possibly even the marble.

Good point, I forgot about the creative. By the way, does that water near the wheat count as small enough to be freshwater? I'm guessing not.

As for techs, I am leaning towards Hunting and Archery. Why? Because after the current warrior we could complete those techs while building our first settler and start pumping out protective archers to explore and defend against barbarians. They can handle anything that comes our way until axemen.

Now we could go the popular route of Bronze Working, but it's a bit of a gamble. What if there's no bronze? And even if there is, we'd need to get a city down and connect it, leaving us with warriors for a long while. And I'm not sure early war is wise, we need to know which other neighbours if any we have.

I'd possibly agree if it wasn't for a few things: you didn't start with hunting, you're aggressive, you've got Rome as a neighbour, and you've got serious surplus food. Aggressive really favours very early war (well, lots of war generally) because of cheap barracks and the fact that all your axemen have an extra +15% against cities (with cover instead of CR). Even if you don't want to take the offensive, axes and spears will be good peace of mind for a long time.
Until BW comes along, a few extra aggressive warriors can do a perfectly good job against barbarian warriors and archers (I've held off Shaka with them too), and if it happens that there's no copper then you can still switch to hunting/archery then rushbuild some archers. Maybe build your barracks early as well.
Rome is a dangerous neighbour to someone without copper, so I think it's very worth your while to at least take the gamble.
Just as importantly, the production benefits of chopping and poprushing are really going to help you - with the food and decent amount of forests in your capital, and your second city's immediate need for culture.

There is a third option for research - Masonry. We could build one settler and immediately try to build the Great Wall. Then barbarians would be a non-issue and we could focus on either economic development or an early war, leaving our non-frontlines with only a single warrior each.

From what I can see so far, it's not a location where you particularly have to fear massive barbarian incursion, since you've got north and south safe, and another civ to the west. Doesn't look like you're anywhere near a pole either. Great Wall would be a waste, I think.

As for more exploration, we're about to get a single warrior but I'm afraid he'd just get killed, and we could possibly use him to escort a settler if we build one right away. If we do send him to explore I suppose we could build a barracks and let the city grow before we build something to escort our first settler with.

You've got a city well suited to growing quickly to size 3 and churning a settler out very fast (if you mine the stone) - could well be worth doing.

 

[sveint]

Chapter 2: 3000 BC to 2000 BC

As soon as our warrior was complete we started on our first settler (well, after one turn of building barracks so the city could grow to size 3). Look what it revealed.

The Romans are very close! Our settler will hurry to the spot right east of the marble, hopefully we can get there first.

Meanwhile as you can see we are researching bronze working. I let myself be swayed but it's 20 turns of "waste" if we have no copper. Let's see how it goes.

We made it! But Osaka really needs a monument. Meanwhile we built a quick barracks and then warriors in Kyoto. It only takes 2 turns to make one so I made a few to explore and defend. Unfortunately it looks like the Romans really want those pigs and the marble.

Did we find copper?

We sure did! Even though a warrior was one turn away in Kyoto I immediately switched to another settler. Osaka started building it's workboat once it had completed a warrior to explore with. It will switch to a monument as soon as we invent Mysticism. I think we'll need a library soon!


Techs researched: Mining, Bronze Working, Mysticism (underway)

 

[sveint]

What next? I generally prefer to wait for catapults before the first war since it is much less expensive in units, but the Romans started really close to us....

We are at 3 cities soon - the 4th should probably wait a bit.

 

[thefais]

Definitely take care of the romans very quickly before their culture overwhelms you. Chances are you're the only 2 on your island (very common in fractal).

Settle 1s of the eastern copper.

 

[Killroyan]

Holy crap, do you want the copper in a better spot??? 1S of the copper is just grand. You just have to make sure the romans don't capture it before you. The city will have production troubles but will make a decent GP/commerce city, especially with your capital being production heaven. I love pigs on hills, too bad they aren't next to a river to give the best early game tile of 5f/1h/1c.

Once you have the copper settled start building up a good army to clobber the romans before the praets get out. Good luck and good show.

 

[Polycrates]

What next? I generally prefer to wait for catapults before the first war since it is much less expensive in units, but the Romans started really close to us....

We are at 3 cities soon - the 4th should probably wait a bit.

I reckon Antium has "fourth city" written all over it

I think if you wait for cats, you'll probably lose even more because a) the BetterAI builds more and better defenders and isn't so afraid to sally them forth and b) those more varied defenders will include significant numbers of Praetorians.
Maybe just build enough to take his new cities and then just pillage Rome.
Although on the other hand, I've noticed that the BetterAI tends to build up quite large defensive forces in border cities but will often leave capitals/productive interior cities a bit more lightly defended, so it may be that marching right through to Rome is even feasible.

 

[Winston Hughes]

1S of the copper is just grand.

Aye, it'll give Kyoto access to the oceans too, which could prove very helpful later on. You could also use Kyoto to produce a workboat to get the copper city growing. Grab that spot!

 

[sveint]

Chapter 3: 2000 BC to 1000 BC

Tokyo was founded in the planned spot.

Sadly it looks like war is unavoidable. The Romans are already improving the pigs and Osaka is being culturally pressured. Tokyo started on a workboat, as sadly Kyoto is unable to build them for some reason (it can build a lighthouse but no boats).

I really didn't want to build too many warriors now that we can almost build axemen, so Kyoto built 2 more workers for improvement and chopping.

Our research is slowing down, so we started researching Writing. Concerning whipping, I am rather worried since we have no happiness resources at all. Perhaps we should consider the Pyramids? 25 turns in Kyoto, and even if we get beat to them it would be a nice cash boost.

By the end of the chapter we have produced 2 axemen (not promoted) and our two other cities are almost ready to produce them too. I have not yet seen any axemen or praetorians, but we have to assume that the Romans have iron next to their capital.

What should we do now? How many axemen before we attack? And what should we do for economic development? If we are on an isolated island, the Pyramids could provide a much-needed boost, we could even use the happiness bonus from representation!

Techs researched: Mysticism, Sailing (from hut), Masonry, Writing (underway)

 

[sveint]

And which research path should we follow from here? I like the Great Library, but Alphabet looks like a waste in our situation. Perhaps Currency and Code of Laws? Metal Working would be nice too, and Calendar is our only chance at a happiness boost, unless we want to try for Monarchy (but it's on a path in the tech tree that we're not on).

 

[Galileo44]

I see another good military production city NW then N of the Eastern Copper. It grab copper, pigs and 3 hills with the pigs providing the food to run the mines. At size 5 it would have 16 base production with one food left over! Also, a whipping factory could be built 1S of the norther pigs. This could later be GP farm with 3 Food resources.

I vote war with rome before Praets come. That means soon!

 

[sveint]

About whipping - we might need/use it to get some axemen ready, but I'm more worried about our long term prospects. Perhaps the future fish/pig/wheat city could be used as a Great Person farm? Or at least for a great scientist or two.

I think already at this point we need to think long term. It looks like we're fairly isolated. Let's say we take all roman cities except Rome itself. What next? I have a nagging feeling we really need to think about both economics and exploration.

So, quick war against Rome with objective to take all but Rome itself and then keep him around for a few trades. Tech for economy, ignoring anything warlike for now. And, as soon as entirely possible.... Optics!?

What does everyone think? Looks like we're at a crucial crossroads.