The BetterAI challenge!
- Thread starter sveint
- Start date
Polycrates
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2006
- Messages
- 1,288
It's a tough point, I'll just throw out some random thoughts.
Seems to me that you're at a point where you may want to throw yourself headlong into a science specialist/Great Scientist/lightbulbing strategy.
Pyramids is tempting for that, but it's pretty costly. It might be a bit late, but Polytheism and Parthenon could also be worth trying.
Alphabet is less useful now, but can still potentially be used to extort something from Rome (and then there's no reason not to try to trade it to him afterwards as well), and it's on the way to Literature. Great Library + National Epic (and you've got the marble for both) will make your science city a lightbulb machine, and GL is still very achievable.
Code of Laws is an excellent goal (the maths/currency or meditation/priesthood routes both have their benefits), though there's no way you're going to take Confucianism. It's not on your immediate research path, but it could be definitely worth saving a GS for a bit to bulb Philosophy and get Taoism, since you won't be getting any other religion in a hurry. Plus Pacifism will really help with your Great People.
One way to combine it might be to go for Mathematics and use your first GS to bulb Alphabet (you should be able to now that you've got sailing), trade/extort Polytheism, sidetrack to Literature to nab GL then go Currency/CoL, run a bit of Caste System, bulb Philosophy if you can get Taoism, then you'll hopefully have a good economic framework for hastening the trip to optics.
Calendar so far looks like it will only gain you one happiness (two if you build markets), so it may not be worth the trip, except that if you have Calendar and either Philosophy or not Meditation, I think you should be able to bulb Machinery with a Great Scientist.
On the other hand, happiness is definitely a problem. I would say that, without Hereditary Rule or a religion in the near future, the way to deal with happiness for now is to cover every inch of your continent with small cities around size 4 running 2 scientists each.
So another route might be meditation (or polytheism if you want the parthenon)/priesthood to CoL (which is faster anyway), bulb Philosophy then research Hereditary Rule, build your cities up and spread Taoism, then switch to Caste System and run masses of scientists for the trip to Optics.
A trip straight to optics costs some expensive techs, and they're ones that don't really directly help you. Seems to me like a bit of a gamble that may leave you very stunted.
So yeah, I'd suggest a trip to Code of Laws (either path), and on the production front running a quick war then focusing on backfilling the rest of the continent with as many cities as you can cram in and stuffing a courthouse and as many scientists into each of them as humanly possible.
Pyramids/Parthenon/Great Library definitely seem like the pick of the wonders to me.
Seems to me that you're at a point where you may want to throw yourself headlong into a science specialist/Great Scientist/lightbulbing strategy.
Pyramids is tempting for that, but it's pretty costly. It might be a bit late, but Polytheism and Parthenon could also be worth trying.
Alphabet is less useful now, but can still potentially be used to extort something from Rome (and then there's no reason not to try to trade it to him afterwards as well), and it's on the way to Literature. Great Library + National Epic (and you've got the marble for both) will make your science city a lightbulb machine, and GL is still very achievable.
Code of Laws is an excellent goal (the maths/currency or meditation/priesthood routes both have their benefits), though there's no way you're going to take Confucianism. It's not on your immediate research path, but it could be definitely worth saving a GS for a bit to bulb Philosophy and get Taoism, since you won't be getting any other religion in a hurry. Plus Pacifism will really help with your Great People.
One way to combine it might be to go for Mathematics and use your first GS to bulb Alphabet (you should be able to now that you've got sailing), trade/extort Polytheism, sidetrack to Literature to nab GL then go Currency/CoL, run a bit of Caste System, bulb Philosophy if you can get Taoism, then you'll hopefully have a good economic framework for hastening the trip to optics.
Calendar so far looks like it will only gain you one happiness (two if you build markets), so it may not be worth the trip, except that if you have Calendar and either Philosophy or not Meditation, I think you should be able to bulb Machinery with a Great Scientist.
On the other hand, happiness is definitely a problem. I would say that, without Hereditary Rule or a religion in the near future, the way to deal with happiness for now is to cover every inch of your continent with small cities around size 4 running 2 scientists each.
So another route might be meditation (or polytheism if you want the parthenon)/priesthood to CoL (which is faster anyway), bulb Philosophy then research Hereditary Rule, build your cities up and spread Taoism, then switch to Caste System and run masses of scientists for the trip to Optics.
A trip straight to optics costs some expensive techs, and they're ones that don't really directly help you. Seems to me like a bit of a gamble that may leave you very stunted.
So yeah, I'd suggest a trip to Code of Laws (either path), and on the production front running a quick war then focusing on backfilling the rest of the continent with as many cities as you can cram in and stuffing a courthouse and as many scientists into each of them as humanly possible.
Pyramids/Parthenon/Great Library definitely seem like the pick of the wonders to me.
sveint
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2006
- Messages
- 187
Chapter 4: 1000 BC to 0 AD
So we started building an army. Sadly, Augustus is no man's fool. 6 archers in defense!
Not good odds either. Is this really a good idea before catapults?
Building and whipping axemen like crazy, we prepared for war. Would it be enough?
And it was! We only lost 2 axemen. Rome already had walls so the next target would be to the south.
With only 3 archers to defend it, Cumae had no chance. We lost another axeman, but that was almost a blessing as our upkeep is starting to tell.
Sadly, the last Roman city, Neaplois was in a really bad spot, so I razed. That left only Rome, but it had walls and 6 City Garrison archers - too tough for us for now. So sticking to the plan, we made peace.
More good news - our little war was just enough to get our first great general. Looking over the cities I selected Osaka as a good place to create a Great Military Instructor. It has good production and can produce naval units.
Why didn't I use it in Tokyo?
Tokyo will get the National Epic and be our wonder-building city. Besides, it cannot produce naval units, which for obvious reasons we will be needing.
Our economy was not doing good now, so it was time to disband warriors, build cottages and whip some libraries.
Next, we did something crazy... we gave stone and marble to the Romans!
Hopefully the fool will build something nice for us, although at the moment most things have been built - except Parthenon and Hanging Gardens and...
The Great Lighthouse, which we built in Kyoto. The very same turn, we discover Curreny, and things are suddenly looking up for our research. What next? Metal Working and the Colossus! (Confusianism is already discovered).
I was worried for a while, but things are starting to look good for our little island nation.
Techs researched: Writing, Pottery, Mathematics, Metal Working (underway)
So we started building an army. Sadly, Augustus is no man's fool. 6 archers in defense!
Not good odds either. Is this really a good idea before catapults?
Building and whipping axemen like crazy, we prepared for war. Would it be enough?
And it was! We only lost 2 axemen. Rome already had walls so the next target would be to the south.
With only 3 archers to defend it, Cumae had no chance. We lost another axeman, but that was almost a blessing as our upkeep is starting to tell.
Sadly, the last Roman city, Neaplois was in a really bad spot, so I razed. That left only Rome, but it had walls and 6 City Garrison archers - too tough for us for now. So sticking to the plan, we made peace.
More good news - our little war was just enough to get our first great general. Looking over the cities I selected Osaka as a good place to create a Great Military Instructor. It has good production and can produce naval units.
Why didn't I use it in Tokyo?
Tokyo will get the National Epic and be our wonder-building city. Besides, it cannot produce naval units, which for obvious reasons we will be needing.
Our economy was not doing good now, so it was time to disband warriors, build cottages and whip some libraries.
Next, we did something crazy... we gave stone and marble to the Romans!
Hopefully the fool will build something nice for us, although at the moment most things have been built - except Parthenon and Hanging Gardens and...
The Great Lighthouse, which we built in Kyoto. The very same turn, we discover Curreny, and things are suddenly looking up for our research. What next? Metal Working and the Colossus! (Confusianism is already discovered).
I was worried for a while, but things are starting to look good for our little island nation.
Techs researched: Writing, Pottery, Mathematics, Metal Working (underway)
50_dollar_bag
Imitation Louis Vuitton
Was going to suggest something but you'd already played.
Nice moves.
Nice moves.
50_dollar_bag
Imitation Louis Vuitton
I'd definately make a move towards lightbulbing Philosophy, it would be good to get a religion to allow you to run Pacifism, especially good now that you can run representation.
My guess is that Augusuts is pretty peeved at you considering you declared war and razed a city of his, you should seek to eliminate him as he won't trade until he knows another civ and chances are he wouldn't trade anyway. That may change with religion but I think Rome would be better off in you're hands.
My guess is that Augusuts is pretty peeved at you considering you declared war and razed a city of his, you should seek to eliminate him as he won't trade until he knows another civ and chances are he wouldn't trade anyway. That may change with religion but I think Rome would be better off in you're hands.
sveint
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2006
- Messages
- 187
Chapter 5: 0 AD - 500
It was time to slow down, build and research. Little of interest happened. We got our first Great Scientist, and so started researching Code of Laws to see if we could get Taoism. I'm a bit worried that it might give us too much penalty in our relations with the other empires if we convert, but we'll see.
Look what happened when the borders of Cumae expanded:
Someone is very near - frustratingly we cannot contact them yet.
Once Code of Laws was invented we stated on Meditation, which would only take two turns. That allowed us to...
How strange to get Philosophy before Alphabet! But we would research that next, and then possibly Literature for the Great Library.
Next Kyoto finished another wonder to help our economy.
By now we had finished researching the Alphabet and could have a chat with our "friend" Augustus Caesar.
Oh well it was as expected. I haven't converted to Taoism, and as long as happiness is not an issue (nor a civic), I won't. It wouldn't allow us to trade with Augustus anyway.
And to my chagrin I discovered something alarming:
That must be Iron there! Time to research construction I think. The sooner the better. At the moment it would take 10 turns. Machinery (great anti-Praetorian unit) would take 20. For the moment I stayed on course for Literature, it would only take a total of 9 turns, Polytheism included.
What next? I'm inclined to research Literature, then Machinery since it would both mean safety against the Romans and get us close to foreign trade routes. Now that would really make our economy boom. Thoughts?
I intend to play one chapter per day, so look for next update soon.
Techs researched: Metal Working, Code of Laws, Meditation, Philosophy (Great Scientist), Alphabet, Polytheism (underway)
It was time to slow down, build and research. Little of interest happened. We got our first Great Scientist, and so started researching Code of Laws to see if we could get Taoism. I'm a bit worried that it might give us too much penalty in our relations with the other empires if we convert, but we'll see.
Look what happened when the borders of Cumae expanded:
Someone is very near - frustratingly we cannot contact them yet.
Once Code of Laws was invented we stated on Meditation, which would only take two turns. That allowed us to...
How strange to get Philosophy before Alphabet! But we would research that next, and then possibly Literature for the Great Library.
Next Kyoto finished another wonder to help our economy.
By now we had finished researching the Alphabet and could have a chat with our "friend" Augustus Caesar.
Oh well it was as expected. I haven't converted to Taoism, and as long as happiness is not an issue (nor a civic), I won't. It wouldn't allow us to trade with Augustus anyway.
And to my chagrin I discovered something alarming:
That must be Iron there! Time to research construction I think. The sooner the better. At the moment it would take 10 turns. Machinery (great anti-Praetorian unit) would take 20. For the moment I stayed on course for Literature, it would only take a total of 9 turns, Polytheism included.
What next? I'm inclined to research Literature, then Machinery since it would both mean safety against the Romans and get us close to foreign trade routes. Now that would really make our economy boom. Thoughts?
I intend to play one chapter per day, so look for next update soon.
Techs researched: Metal Working, Code of Laws, Meditation, Philosophy (Great Scientist), Alphabet, Polytheism (underway)
sveint
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2006
- Messages
- 187
Of course, Crossbowmen require Iron. 
So, that leaves us with Axemen to face Praetorians. I think we need Construction immediately and to take down that Iron as soon as we build one or two more axemen. We need a few new ones with anti-melee promotions.
Is there anything else I missed or didn't think of?
So, that leaves us with Axemen to face Praetorians. I think we need Construction immediately and to take down that Iron as soon as we build one or two more axemen. We need a few new ones with anti-melee promotions.
Is there anything else I missed or didn't think of?
Expand the Broaders of Cumae, Build any Cultural Build, generally a wonder is best to pop those broaders, you know Gallies can travel ocean tiles as long as their with cultural broades any cultural broaders, your or your Opponenets. Contact the other AI so you can trade.
I's say if you can... go for drama to get that threatre up in Cumae.
I's say if you can... go for drama to get that threatre up in Cumae.
sveint
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2006
- Messages
- 187
Chapter 6: 500 - 1000
Soon enough, Augustus decided he'd had enough.
It was time to go into panic mode and starting building axemen. With the proper promotions they can defend fairly well against Praetorians.
When we got our 2nd Great Scientist, I went ahead and lightbulbed Calendar. One happiness and knowing where on the globe we are seemed worth it. We don't really have a city where an Academy would help that much.
Augustus did throw some Praetorians at us, but Axemen with Combat 2 and Shock easily defeated them. Once Construction was researched we could start building catapults and finally push for his last 2 cities.
But what should we research next? There are many alternatives: Drama, Ironworking (for Optics), even Civil Service or Feudalism. In the end I settled for Music, a free Great Artist would be nice, and we could certainly use the Notre Dame for the happiness boost.
But before that we completed another wonder.
With both Stone and Marble it almost feels like we are an Industrious civ.
Our next Great Person was a merchant. Having no foreign city to send it to, it was either lighbulb part of Civil Service or settle him as a specialist. Since we could use the cash and are running Representation, I went with the specialist.
The same turn we discovered Music, we completed yet another wonder.
Sadly, we got no Great Artist. Meeting other civs really started to be a concern for me now, so Optics would have to be next.
It took a while to get, but hopefully for the last time we razed the Roman iron city.
By now I am rather worried about what is going on in the larger world. There seems to be a large religion block, probably with much trading. Hopefully no one is going for a cultural victory...
Techs researched: Polytheism, Literature, Calendar (Great Scientist), Construction, Music, Iron Working, Compass (underway)
Soon enough, Augustus decided he'd had enough.
It was time to go into panic mode and starting building axemen. With the proper promotions they can defend fairly well against Praetorians.
When we got our 2nd Great Scientist, I went ahead and lightbulbed Calendar. One happiness and knowing where on the globe we are seemed worth it. We don't really have a city where an Academy would help that much.
Augustus did throw some Praetorians at us, but Axemen with Combat 2 and Shock easily defeated them. Once Construction was researched we could start building catapults and finally push for his last 2 cities.
But what should we research next? There are many alternatives: Drama, Ironworking (for Optics), even Civil Service or Feudalism. In the end I settled for Music, a free Great Artist would be nice, and we could certainly use the Notre Dame for the happiness boost.
But before that we completed another wonder.
With both Stone and Marble it almost feels like we are an Industrious civ.
Our next Great Person was a merchant. Having no foreign city to send it to, it was either lighbulb part of Civil Service or settle him as a specialist. Since we could use the cash and are running Representation, I went with the specialist.
The same turn we discovered Music, we completed yet another wonder.
Sadly, we got no Great Artist. Meeting other civs really started to be a concern for me now, so Optics would have to be next.
It took a while to get, but hopefully for the last time we razed the Roman iron city.
By now I am rather worried about what is going on in the larger world. There seems to be a large religion block, probably with much trading. Hopefully no one is going for a cultural victory...
Techs researched: Polytheism, Literature, Calendar (Great Scientist), Construction, Music, Iron Working, Compass (underway)
Powerslave
Prince
Looks like we've got a builder here.
sveint
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2006
- Messages
- 187
Chapter 7: 1000 - 1200
First turn, and we meet a new civ! Better yet they weren't ahead of us in techs. I immediately made a trade.
I also traded Ivory for clam and pig. I don't mind giving away health resources, hopefully it will give us a diplomatic bonus too.
Furthermore, it seems I was wrong about the borders in Cumae. I am not afraid to admit when I learn something new.
So, Cumae started on a Galley that would be whipped, allowing us to explore our neighbour's territory.
India was more than willing to trade for more technologies.
Having made the jump across to the Indians, we met another civ, and he was at war with India!
No trade opportunities there, but perhaps a future target? Our exploration continued.
Meanwhile, back home, Rome fell, but annoyingly they had built another city in the north. After it fell, the "home islands" were finally free of barbarians.
For our efforts, we received another Great General, which I'll save for Education and a Military Academy in Osaka.
And we made another trade, this time for Feudalism and some gold, giving up Philosophy.
And we met another civ, quite advanced. It seems we are next to some sort of continent.
The same turn, Notre Dame was finished, and it was time to turn our effort towards expantion and trade. Optics was only a few turns away.
Bad news was in store, when we met two more civilizations...
Bad luck that we met India first. Looks like we are going to have our hands full in this game.
At least once we got Optics, our trade routes to India started bring in some much-needed cash. Civil Service was next: Samurais, Irrigation and bureacracy.
What next? We could possibly take on India, but he's by far our best trading partner and a nice buffer against the other civs. Perhaps we could use him as a staging area?
Techs researched: Compass, Machinery, Optics, Civil Service (underway)
First turn, and we meet a new civ! Better yet they weren't ahead of us in techs. I immediately made a trade.
I also traded Ivory for clam and pig. I don't mind giving away health resources, hopefully it will give us a diplomatic bonus too.
Furthermore, it seems I was wrong about the borders in Cumae. I am not afraid to admit when I learn something new.
So, Cumae started on a Galley that would be whipped, allowing us to explore our neighbour's territory.
India was more than willing to trade for more technologies.
Having made the jump across to the Indians, we met another civ, and he was at war with India!
No trade opportunities there, but perhaps a future target? Our exploration continued.
Meanwhile, back home, Rome fell, but annoyingly they had built another city in the north. After it fell, the "home islands" were finally free of barbarians.
For our efforts, we received another Great General, which I'll save for Education and a Military Academy in Osaka.
And we made another trade, this time for Feudalism and some gold, giving up Philosophy.
And we met another civ, quite advanced. It seems we are next to some sort of continent.
The same turn, Notre Dame was finished, and it was time to turn our effort towards expantion and trade. Optics was only a few turns away.
Bad news was in store, when we met two more civilizations...
Bad luck that we met India first. Looks like we are going to have our hands full in this game.
At least once we got Optics, our trade routes to India started bring in some much-needed cash. Civil Service was next: Samurais, Irrigation and bureacracy.
What next? We could possibly take on India, but he's by far our best trading partner and a nice buffer against the other civs. Perhaps we could use him as a staging area?
Techs researched: Compass, Machinery, Optics, Civil Service (underway)
sveint certainly seems to like his wonders, but I don't think I'd call him a builder. Would a builder have gone after the Romans so ruthlessly even though there was space for new cities to the east? I think not.
What's more, the wonders he's gone for (I'm assuming sveint is a male) certainly work together: GL gives two specialists, Angkor Wat gives priest specialists a hammer bonus (and lets you assign 3 more priests), Notre Dame raises the happy cap (which allows an extra specialist where food permits), and Pyramids means that all specialists can be given a 3 beaker bonus. The Colossus is also useful, given the predominance of coastal cities.
The result ought to be a high-powered SE with lots of GPs, and plentiful cash from the coasts to cover the costs of war and expansion. Quite how he's managed to get all of them at Monarch whilst warring, I don't know (since we haven't seen any city shots its hard to judge how he's running his economy, or how powerful his cities are).
It looks like a great start to me, although I'd get the east coast settled quickly to take advantage of the wonders and to stop Asoka from settling there.
About the cultural broaders not being to be able to reach ocean tiles... I think all Ocean tiles can be reached by cultural broaders only if their workable... meaning if you settled your city as close to the coast as possible your cultural broaders should be able to reach them, if they are workable within your city's normal fatcross.
Since it's possible to settle Cumae 1 Tile West or east of it's current location, the cultural braoders should have been able to reach those further out into the ocaen tiles, as they were possibley workable IF you settle 1 tile west or east. if you want to know which tiles can be worked, click on the button with the Food/Commerce/Hammer button at the bottom right hand corner of your screen above the mini-map.
Well that's just my assumption. Anywayz, What I think you should do next is beeline to Astronomy and go conquer the bigger continent, you don't want to waste your traits do you? IF I didn't have Military Traits, that Island would of been perfect for a culural Victory... ALthough I don't know if it's still Viable with the BEtter AI, as their smarter but I'm not sure if their good at Naval warfare yet.
Since it's possible to settle Cumae 1 Tile West or east of it's current location, the cultural braoders should have been able to reach those further out into the ocaen tiles, as they were possibley workable IF you settle 1 tile west or east. if you want to know which tiles can be worked, click on the button with the Food/Commerce/Hammer button at the bottom right hand corner of your screen above the mini-map.
Well that's just my assumption. Anywayz, What I think you should do next is beeline to Astronomy and go conquer the bigger continent, you don't want to waste your traits do you? IF I didn't have Military Traits, that Island would of been perfect for a culural Victory... ALthough I don't know if it's still Viable with the BEtter AI, as their smarter but I'm not sure if their good at Naval warfare yet.
shadyforce
Chieftain
To clarify:
1. No ocean squares may be owned by any culture.
2. You may not own any coast or sea squares that are more than 2 squares away from the edge of your land (this can give some weird culture shapes if there is a peninsula near your city with loads of culture.)
3. I know of no Optics requirement for extending your borders onto sea.
1. No ocean squares may be owned by any culture.
2. You may not own any coast or sea squares that are more than 2 squares away from the edge of your land (this can give some weird culture shapes if there is a peninsula near your city with loads of culture.)
3. I know of no Optics requirement for extending your borders onto sea.
The are no such thing as sea squares/tiles in Civ4. There are only Coastal and Ocean Squares/Tiles and you can culturally own an Ocean square/tile as long as they don't extend any further then 2 squares/tiles away from land. As Proof that there are no Sea Squares/Tiles in Civ4, here a pic of Civpedia in the Base Terrain menu, You receive +1Food and +1Commerce if you work an ocean tile.
Unless you intepreted the Ocean and sea tiles as equal except the only difference is that, an ocean tile is a tile you can't work because it can never be in the ciy's fat cross and a sea tile is an ocean tile that can be worked in the city's fat cross.
sveint
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2006
- Messages
- 187
I mostly let the AI handle the cities (which plots to work). Currently Tokyo and Satsuma are running "emphasize science". Osaka is our primary troop builder and was running "emphasize hammers" when we needed catapults. On rare occasions I micromanage, but only the major cities.
As can be seen from the power graph, warmongering is no longer as easy. I am to be honest a bit worried about being attacked by several AIs at once. Perhaps the best choice for us now is to attack Korea? I'm afraid he will run away from us tech-wise.
As can be seen from the power graph, warmongering is no longer as easy. I am to be honest a bit worried about being attacked by several AIs at once. Perhaps the best choice for us now is to attack Korea? I'm afraid he will run away from us tech-wise.
