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The biggest problems of current combat system

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Krajzen, Apr 23, 2014.

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The biggest problems of Civ5 combat/unit system:

  1. Lack of pre - renaissance naval combat (useless trireme)

    14 vote(s)
    23.3%
  2. Overpowered composite bowmen and crossbowmen

    25 vote(s)
    41.7%
  3. Overpowered frigates and missile cruisers

    7 vote(s)
    11.7%
  4. Too weak swordsmen/longswordsmen

    23 vote(s)
    38.3%
  5. Too weak mounted units

    13 vote(s)
    21.7%
  6. Only 1 range of gatlings, machine guns and bazooka

    10 vote(s)
    16.7%
  7. Strange anti - mounted upgrade line (Pikeman - Lancer - AT gun - Helicopter)

    22 vote(s)
    36.7%
  8. Too big jump between renaissance (cannon, crossbowman) and industrial era (artillery, gatling gun)

    13 vote(s)
    21.7%
  9. Useless Marine/Paratrooper

    9 vote(s)
    15.0%
  10. Too weak tanks

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Yeah, I would also greatly prefer it over pikemen -> lancer.

    In the vanilla Civ5 pikemen upgraded to musketmen while lancers were standalone unit. But they were useless. So Firaxis decided on a brilliant move to link them with anti - mounted line so we have infantry upgrading into cavalry, field artillery and helicopters :p

    It is awful to upgrade experienced medieval/ancient infantry to such useless cavalry unit, especially for Zulu, Persia and Celts.
    On the other hand, it is awful for civs with Lancer units - Poland, Ottoman, Sweden - that they have to wait till atomic era (!!!) to upgrade their unique units.

    And what between cuirasseur and helicopters? :(

    I would simply upgrade Cavalry to Landships. Armor units are usually considered as 'modern cavalry'.

    The only reason to leave them would be IMHO to make them 2/3 range non direct fire ranged unit with high combat strenght (no bonus to cities). So they would be actually dangerous against tanks while remaining useful for other purposes.

    Well, for me it seems to be too complicated, the same as for the current anti cav line ;)
    Much better solution - I have even seen a mod like this - is a conversion of 'ranged cavalry' promotions into 'cavalry promotions'.

    Cool idea.

    I think it would be too much - the entire concept of city bombardment is strange and makes wars more static than they were in the history, shouldn't be buffed more.
     
  2. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

    Joined:
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    My two cents:
    (1) Overpowered composite bowmen and crossbowmen:
    As a defensive player, I build a lot of ranged units - they just seem way more powerful than melee, especially if you can control the terrain where you are fighting in.

    (2) Strange anti - mounted upgrade line (Pikeman - Lancer - AT gun - Helicopter):
    Another reason to never build spearmen or pikemen unless your enemy is swarming you with cavalry. Why, oh why?!

    (3) Too weak tanks:
    ...or, the other way round: Bombers are way too powerful, rendering tanks more or less pointless.
     
  3. subtledoctor

    subtledoctor Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Man, this thread makes me miss Civ4. Do NOT mean to rehash the 1upt debate here; but 1 vs. 1, Civ4 (BTS) had great unit balance. (Sword > spear > horse > sword; rifle > cavalry > grenadier > rifle.) And because some unit always died in every battle, they had to be cheaper, meaning you could field a much more diverse army. Now, With fewer units to field, the devs seem to have felt the need to simplify unit classes. And clearly flailed to find a new way to represent archers' support role.

    (Also I loved the exploit to give xbows first strike promotions and then upgrade them to infantry.)
     
  4. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    Everyone on this thread DOES realize that if you ignore the lancer upgrade pikemen later have the option of becoming riflemen right? I sure hope if you've played Zulu you realized this, otherwise you totally screwed up your experienced impi army and all those ikanda upgrades. The rifleman push is one of the Zulu's most powerful as their riflemen are likewise way better than contemporaries due to ikanda. All those cover and flanking upgrades! Plus 3 movement! They just skip musketmen and make the two contemporaries for some reason--probably because the combat difference is not that large. I see the lancer line as just an option if you want it for some reason. The best use of it is landschnekt-->lancer-->helicopter...because it eliminates the pillage movement cost of helis and makes them into the monsters they should be for such a job. You can pillage 6-8 tiles a turn!
     
  5. meowschwitz

    meowschwitz Warlord

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    NY

    That's not true. The Impi are the only pikemen which upgrade to something else.
     
  6. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    hmmm...I thought I just did it for another pikemen...I see I was mistaken then. But yes, not the impi...that's what I was remembering. Thanks. I looked it up. Here's the BNW chart and the rifleman option is just for UU (grey lines are UU only, dotted are ruin upgrade options):

    Spoiler :
     
  7. meowschwitz

    meowschwitz Warlord

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    I voted composites but I think the biggest problem with CiV combat is how cities dominate combat due to a lack of open field. Everything gets clogged up in between cities and artifically made small armies don't have any maneuverability. This isn't a gripe against 1up, as I think there are some tactically great ideas that stem from it, but rather against the scale of the maps. I think, and hope in civ 6, that we have each of these current hexes broken down into six small hexes. Units would take up one or maybe two of these, cities would grow through these, and terrain and resources would change on this new scale. Cities, and early ranged would then only be able to bombard out two mini hexes which would make open field combat more possible for armies. Basically I want to increase hexes by 600% for every map size, make units a bit easier to produce, and then make more unit diversity so that armies could actually work off of each other.
     
  8. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    Interesting idea...couldn't you also just switch the city spacing requirements up with the current game though? I fail to see how doing this is any different than changing the city spacing to 5+ and playing on a huge map...am I correct? You're essentially adding a ton of new hexes therefore making the map bigger...or were you saying cities could grow into and usurp multiple hexes?
     
  9. meowschwitz

    meowschwitz Warlord

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    Cities should grow through those smaller hexes and make defending them interesting. Walls will allow city bombardment for two smaller hexes around where it's built. It will need to be added onto as the city grows if you want to protect your city fully. Having a ton more hexes allows for units to be made cheaper again and for scale to be preserved a bit. Changing the city spacing on a huge map would make road costs rise and still wouldn't solve the problem as that's only one or two extra hexes when I'm talking 18 in that same space between cities. Tile yields would also have to behave differently as some improvements and resources would span multiple tiles. As you can see, this is more an idea for civ 6 as it would need some major changes to many systems and a faster running game to deal with so much more data on even the basic sized maps.
     
  10. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    @Danaphanous thanks for this brilliant image :D

    In fact I am working on one thing in which this chart can greatly help me... :D

    @Meowschwitz - hah, this is the main thing I forgot about. Yeah, I also don't like that and it is pretty hard to improve. It would require changing the entire scale of the game.

    My dream would be:
    - ...optimized awesome advanced graphic engine which would allow on
    - ...cities consisting of multiple hexes, growing in all directions (and awesome customization of each City Tile)
    - ...and smaller villages/towns in the metropolis range
    - ...armies with place to maneuver.
     

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