The C2C Team - Checks and Balances

[JamesBC]

I am trying to understand the team synergy I see on the forums to understand how decisions are made. From the time Ive been lurking, Ive seen this structure.

Leadership
Strategyonly, Chaos

The Creators
StrategyOnly adds the new civilizations, Sargon adds Wonders and Heroes, Azure adds Technologies, Yudishtira adds Units, Faustmouse add Buildings.

The Programmers
Dancing Hoskuld, Koshling, Alberts2, Thunderbrd, N47, and a few others are the Programmers.

The Artists
Sparth, HydromancerX


I understand this is a community mod of sorts, and I see it as a federation or city-states of modders.

A federation , also known as a federal state, is a political entity characterized by a union of partially self-governing states or regions under a central (federal) government. In a federation, the self-governing status of the component states, as well as the division of power between them and the central government, are typically constitutionally entrenched and may not be altered by a unilateral decision of either party, the states or the federal political body

A city-state is an independent or autonomous entity, not administered as a part of another local government, whose territory consists of a city and possibly its surrounding territory.

I have a concern. As long as there is a federation or city-state system as long as everyone performs in there own department, the system is stable. When a person claims authority over another that doesn't have a leadership role, the system becomes unstable.

I noticed the Programmer group get along quite well, and so do the Artists. The concern is with the The Creators.

It seems that the Forum has people that act like check and balances and are the feedback system and keep the decisions of Caveman2Cosmos in a good balance, with no extreme or really bad decisions from entering the game. They are in essence the gatekeepers of what gets added and their fruits of feedback are most welcomed, especially Joseph II, Faustmouse, and Yudishtira.

This system works well in this federation/city state of madders. Even thou that maybe the case, I notice a quite large red flag.


Azure definitely needs a check and balance, and the people have done a good job. I say this not because he is a bad decision maker or that his ideas are bad, but many of this ideas are on the "to big of a change" or "too expansive" side of the spectrum. It seems like he listens and taking feedback into consideration from others more often then not. The system works well with him from what I've read, especially that 1000+ post Transhuman Thread.


The big red flag is that I've noticed is HydromancerX. have nothing against him, but as he assumes authority over the Creators, there is no check and balance system for him. Who is the check and balance against HydromancerX?

The reason I ask this is that he seems to have immunity from forum feedback. In the MrAzure To Do list Thread, he revealed that Housing was an unpopluar decision, but it was still added! The same with Flammability.

Why does Azure or Faustmouse have to get their building designs audited while HydoromancerX gets no review? An example is the Breeding Program and Reclamation Plants he added. Why did he tell Faustmouse to add them? If this is a community mod, why is he exempt?


Now he wants to add Tourism to ALL Wonders when people don't want Tourism, and if added, only as a game option. Why is he allowed to do that when people don't want it? Where is his check and balance?

The same with adding new Cultures , Buildings, and Technologies. Isn't Azure the Technologist, Faustmouse the Buildings, and Sargon the Culturist? Why does he decide what gets added?

I also noticed from threads, his decision seems to be final and you cant appeal it. I f people highly disagree about something, and he wants it in, he gets the "final vote". Why does he have this privilege, when others don't...not even StategyOnly has this privilege .


Again, I have nothing personal against Hydromancerx, but if everyone else has checks and balances, he should too.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am often the check and balance to HydromancerX. Although this does not always work. I try and come up with some solution that gets his additions to work better. Since I am only working on C2C as part of making my own modmods I have not been paying as much attention to the detail anymore.

My modmods are
- restricted movement to slow down early exploration while not changing early expansion
- complete change to the religion system using the Rapture and Faces of God mods as inspiration. Removes the race for religions as each nation stats with its own religion and evolves it in the direction they want.

 

[Faustmouse]

I am trying to understand the team synergy I see on the forums to understand how decisions are made. From the time Ive been lurking, Ive seen this structure.

Leadership
Strategyonly, Chaos

The Creators
StrategyOnly adds the new civilizations, Sargon adds Wonders and Heroes, Azure adds Technologies, Yudishtira adds Units, Faustmouse add Buildings.

The Programmers
Dancing Hoskuld, Koshling, Alberts2, Thunderbrd, N47, and a few others are the Programmers.

The Artists
Sparth, HydromancerX

haha if you put it this way, it looks surprisingly logic and structurated

Maybe your main question first: Hydro was one of the three founders of C2C (along with StrategyOnly and I THINK Dancing Hoskuld). That's why he has what you call "immunity". Sometimes I REALLY don't agree with him but then I think he has the most experience and so it would be good for the game in some way...

He is, more or less, the coordinator of us "creators" (at least Sargon, Yudishtira, Mr Azure and me). Until 6 months ago, he added buildings by himself. Then I asked him to add some buildings and he showed me how to do it myself. Now he comes up with buildings and I code them for him. He is my tutor if you want to say that. Mr Azure proposed A LOT of Transhuman stuff and Hydro take a look over it and make buildings out of it which I code then. Hydro is also the tutor of Yudishtira. He was asking if someone wants to take over Units (since the guy who did it before left to Civ5) and Yudishtira was interested and is doing a great job now. If you learn basic coding, you can easily other stuff, for example Sargon started with only Wonders and now makes heros, I did some Alternate Timeline Stuff and Resources etc.

 

[SargontheGreat2]

Here's how I see it

-SO

-DLL Programmers(Koshing and AI ANDY)

-Python Programmers (DH and TB)

-Hydro

-me

-MR azure

-other XML Programmers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

TB doesn't do Python! He is a dll programmer.

 

[SargontheGreat2]

Oh god I'm embarrassed

 

[Azurian]

James
The reason Hydro gets "immunity" its because he is one of the Founders. If you disagree with his changes, you can make changes by making a modmod or tweak your own personal copy.

 

[rightfuture]

Here's how I see it

-SO

-DLL Programmers(Koshing and AI ANDY)

-Python Programmers (DH and TB)

-Hydro

-me

-MR azure

-other XML Programmers

sorry to stick my 2 cents in the bubblegum.
and I guess I'm just lurker+ scenery then. not that I want just that.
I'd like to continue to earn a little deserved place in the corner if I could, more to be a help than to toot a horn.

I'm here to more than just praise your efforts and make sure you reach your best potential.
I want to guarantee that Caveman2Cosmos reaches the heights of everything it deserves.
C2C is the ultimate exploration of Civ ideas and gameplay and I will do everything I can to make sure that it's symphony resounds to the world, and that C2C is everything it could become.
The future of Civ and modding here is as limitless as you gentlemen (and ladies) choose to make it.
Don't stand in your own way, distract, or limit yourselves. Any challenge can be overcome. I live my life as proof of it.
Move freely and keep the spirit of what Caveman2Cosmos is and can be, as dynamic, passionate, creative, and limitless as you can.
Be open to letting C2C become even greater.

You have no idea how special C2C is, because you can only see today, here, and now, and what is around you and in front of you now and in your daily contributions.
"A journey begins with a single step"
You are here, at the moment, and you want to make sure that means something, and something for the future,
and as a rare team with a living spirit that can realize an exciting and possible dream.
Sometimes you miss the forest for the trees. I would like to keep you on course, and on horse!
Don't ever forget to look for what Caveman2Cosmos could and can be; Everything you want Civilization to become, and the future of what strategy and exploration gaming could be.
Free C2C and yourselves to live and thrive! See it's vision through each other eyes. Let C2C breathe and become a living world of exciting application of great ideas.
It will evolve and naturally grow past CIV IV, the game engine, graphic limitations, programming challenges, resources, history, and the future itself.
You guys are here to make sure your collective vision can become real, and it can through and with each other.
I am 100% certain C2C will keep getting even better as you share your love for wanting it to be even greater.
Keep that spirit living and share it with others. It is infectious, inspiring, and shaping up to become even more real.
It takes leaders and an inspired village.
Get out of your own way, and help all of us free Caveman2Cosmos to birth the living child it can become.
Keep that baby with the bathwater.
And help it survive to become the Emperor of Civ exploration and ideas that you want to see!!!!

I never expected to hit contributor or modder status without a few major noticeable home runs for C2C, but every now and then I like to think my heartfelt efforts have helped - supporting Caveman2Cosmos is my passion.
I Never intend to compare myself to the regular contributors or Dream Team 'Godlings' like yourselves.


I like to think I help make C2C a little better.


I hope I have at least made a noticeable pulse of a minor contribution here.

I represent the players, the possibilities, and potential of you guys, help me help you.

I will retire now back to being a quiet voice in the corner...
C2C Cheerleader and secret agent PR/Marketing Director...
Thanks for letting me keep squawking Helping you guys is my passion, sorry to let it pour out all over this conversation.
I care.
...back to accumulating espionage assets and potential paradigm shifts.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."!

Margaret Mead

 

[rightfuture]

Great job for bringing this up - James we probably need to hear more about this from you!

I do think we need a flexible organizational chart again including roles and positions seeking to attract talent.
I think apprentices, contributors even occasional, past team members, and advisors should be included in some fashion.
It might encourage more people to participate!

We need people like James, and other lurkers to speak up and help, even if they don't mod. Discussion and organization are useful tasks also!

I strongly agree that we all should get the important things more organized.
(I'm the professional business guy with the degree and the organization drum here) Saves time and frees you to move more easily.
Could solve a lot of issues.
Not that I haven't already brought this type of thing up a few times.

C2C-Idea Inspiration and Organization (not recently updated)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=464235

I've tried to offer building a organization chart a few times, and so has MrAzure! I think we could do a great job together

Anything we could do to get more organized would be helpful - any more ideas?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Hydro bends when cases are made. He's proven to listen well to SO, DH, myself and some others. I feel that the more he considers the commenter a 'part of the team' - and there is a gradient there that probably involves seniority and skillset more than anything, the more he'll heed the feedback. This isn't at all irrational of him and I think we all need to take this approach at times. Reason being there ends up being a lot of voices - many of which are in disagreement with each other. At some point you have to filter and go with your own judgment.

More than anything I think the team has moved towards a persuasion style governing approach. We're all listening and reading what's said and if what's said moves our opinions I don't think any of us are above being willing to bend on almost all points. Sometimes it just takes being 'sold' on the advice or requests we're given. In other words, tell us WHY to do, not just WHAT to do. A good analysis goes a long ways towards getting a request fulfilled.

Now he wants to add Tourism to ALL Wonders when people don't want Tourism, and if added, only as a game option. Why is he allowed to do that when people don't want it? Where is his check and balance?

I think it's unfair to say 'people don't want it.' Some do. So the plea should be to make it setup as an option somehow. That's admittedly more difficult to achieve... I'd have to look into how we could optionalize a property. Furthermore when you do it limits the ability for the property to become a load bearing pillar where the game balance is concerned. You need to consider both the yes and no side of implementation. How will the game be with it and how would it be without it? So it's very difficult if it's as deeply impacting as a property. That said... given that there is some polar disagreement with adding it at all, I do think we should put in the effort to consider how to optionalize it and implement it as an option, even if it's much more difficult to do so that way.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@JamesBC

I have put a LOT into the mod saying "artist" is totally misrepresenting me. The same goes for many other on the team with are a jack of all trades (because we have to be). Stuff I have done ...

XML
- Buildings (Crafting, Cranes, Crime, Crops, Disease, Eletrcity, Embassy, Entertainment, Farming, Firestorm, Fossils, Garbage, Goods, Guilds, Health, Holidays, Housing, Hunting, Law, Military, Minerals, Orbital, Ordinance, Palace, Pets, Poison, Promotions, Scence, Seafood, Spirtual, Sports, Tower, Transpotation, Trapping, Tweaks, Vacation, Water and Wonders Mods)
- Alt-Timelines (Most of Steampunk, Dieselpunk and Clockpunk)
- Civics (Education, Immigration, Garbage, Language
- Version 1 of the Galactic Era
- Obsidian Units, a couple of UUs

Design
- Most of the tech tree. Especially the Prehistoric and Galactic Era (with Civ Fuehrer's help)
- Most Building that Sargon, Faustmouse and MrAzture has made.
- Most Most every unique unit either coded by ls612 or Yudishtira
- Planned the newer terrains and terrain features with DH.
- Requested the Mountain mod from Afforess.
- Made the name "Cavemen to Cosmos" in which SO said it was better as "Caveman".
- A TON of idea thread for RoM, AND and C2C of which about 50% have been made.

Art
- Many icon/buttons for units, civics, techs,
- Custom Made promotion buttons.
- Custom skilled units for some UUs
- From scratch units like the Di Vinci Tank, Ornithopter, Log Ram, Llama Rider, etc.
- Converted nearly all the animals from Zoo Tycoon 2 for DH's subdued animal mod
- Resources Henna, Murex, Kanagroo, etc.
- Terrain such as Bamboo, Coral, Kelp, Barren, etc.

I know I have forgotten some stuff but I can safely say that if I was not part of C2C that it would not be C2C. It would probably sill be Prehistoric NWA. And I know the mod says "strategyonly and team" it could just as well say "Hydromancerx and team".

I appreciate strategyonly having me join hm and DH in the beginning, but honestly if it were not for my had work to get this going and inspiring others to join the team then there would be no C2C. I love every one on the team and have said on numerous occasions how much I appreciate their works.

They are my friends and I personally try to listen to their ideas and the ideas of the players. I go out of my way when I do not have to. I have never liked the idea that we should have checks and balances. You put in the work and you should get the respect of the others. If you are kind to others then they will be kind to you.

I have debated with everyone on the team and we have worked towards solutions. I mean we are all volunteer here and I still can't believe how amazing the mod has gotten over the many months.

And sure I have not done as much modding myself as I have in the past but that's because I don't have to with those who have volunteered. I have been able to spend more time designing and working on art stuff other lack in skills with (except maybe Sparth).

Note if you think I have been harsh to MrAzure I think you should know that it was me who contacted him and asked him to come back. Mainly because the people who did not like his stuff left the team. I really like his ideas and I feel him and I are very similar in vomiting out ideas. However the difference between him I tend to have an affinity to convert his ideas into something manage. However there are some that I feel could be tweaked a bit more. The thing is I do not want to be perceived as hypocrite since I did the same thing when asking Afforess to add stuff to AND.

The big red flag is that I've noticed is HydromancerX. have nothing against him, but as he assumes authority over the Creators, there is no check and balance system for him. Who is the check and balance against HydromancerX?

The only reason I have any authority is that I was here before them and they got mentored in. Afforess taught me to mod and when I joined strategyonly I asked him if I could do what I wanted and have the creative freedom that Afforess would not give me. He said yes and C2C was born.

strategyonly and I worked on a TON of stuff together in the beginning . Especially the tech tree with the prehistoric era and combining in the AToM mod for the Galactic Era. I trust his judgement on things and look up to him as both a leader and a friend.

DH and I have been around the same level since the beginning since I did to want to step on his stuff with his Subdued animals mod, and he let me do my thing. Over the years he have helped out each other and I very much respect him as a modder and as a friend.

For AIAndy and Koshling I mostly stay out of their stuff because they are coding geniuses and it was nice to get some of my ideas manifests such as working Crime and Flammability through the Amazing property system they made.

ls612 I think was was the first may person I mentored to become a modder. He is a great guy and I am so glad he helped make all the units he has made. The mod would not be the same without the work on the units he helped make.

Vokarya did amazing things for the tech tree and while I would discuss the tree with him for the most part I just stepped back and let him do his thing.

Thunderbrd at first was not taken seriously by the team, but I could see real potential from him. I stood up for him when others did not want him in and I have seen the benefits of his work. I am very glad to have him on the team still. And I have become a real friend with him.

MrAzure came around the summer of 2012 and posted some good stuff but then went crazy and lied to us about having a whole team of people and stuff with a girl named Sarah. Then left in a huge mess that was felt for months. Some might say it lead to some people leaving. At any rate I asked hm back and he finally came back

Yudishtira, Sargon and Fausmouse are the most recent contributors. There have been others that have come and gone too. Yudishtira has done a great job with units and Fausmouse has worked well on buildings with MrAzures ideas and mine. Sargon has needed some guidance and work but overall I am happy with his skills now.

So um yeah, I was not even going to login today since it Thanksgiving but once I thought this thread I wanted to make sure my side was heard.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@JamesBC

I understand this is a community mod of sorts, and I see it as a federation or city-states of modders.

I would agree somewhat. Using your analogy strategyonly would be lord of the SVN land and looks to other city-states (modder) on his land on who should gain access to it. Like all of civ4 anyone can mod the game, but we as modders of C2C have a say on who contribute to our mod.

We also have a modmod section where those who have ideas can post and if we the team like it then it gets in. Especially if the community likes it. I have personally acted as a checker for many of the new things that get in. Mainly because I have modded so much of the mod and know that stuff. Note that there are many parts of the mod that I am not familiar with and they would get checked by them, which as python stuff. But when it comes to building in particular I am the master. Most of the builds were either coded by me, re-coded by me or were approved by me. Nothing is stet in stone since I do listen to the players and other modders. But that's why I stuff goes through me for that stuff.

It seems that the Forum has people that act like check and balances and are the feedback system and keep the decisions of Caveman2Cosmos in a good balance, with no extreme or really bad decisions from entering the game. They are in essence the gatekeepers of what gets added and their fruits of feedback are most welcomed, especially Joseph II, Faustmouse, and Yudishtira.

The mod is very fluid and if there are bad things that get in they eventually get fixed or removed. Such as the case of the Tax Civic getting removed.

The big red flag is that I've noticed is HydromancerX. have nothing against him, but as he assumes authority over the Creators, there is no check and balance system for him. Who is the check and balance against HydromancerX?

The team, strategyonly and the players are my balance. A few times my ideas have been flat out rejected or I have had to fix them. There is no way I could do what I do without the support and approval of the team. That's why I post most everything I do on the forums for feedback from the community. Much of the time even better ideas I did not think of come fro this type of discussion.

The reason I ask this is that he seems to have immunity from forum feedback. In the MrAzure To Do list Thread, he revealed that Housing was an unpopluar decision, but it was still added! The same with Flammability.

Housing started out where you had to build all the buildings. But when auto-build buildings code was made I was able to convert them into auto-build buildings and stop the boring process of making them. But still represent them as a counter balance in the Sim City based building system which C2C uses (aka RCI). I also started out some them too strong in their stats and after feedback from people like Joseph II, I toned them down.

Why does Azure or Faustmouse have to get their building designs audited while HydoromancerX gets no review? An example is the Breeding Program and Reclamation Plants he added. Why did he tell Faustmouse to add them?

The breeding program was DH's idea that I liked so I asked Faustmouse to make them. The reclamation plants were an idea from sim city and it was discussed before making it. They may even become a National Wonder due to suggestions, but I am not sure yet. SO put trust in my judgement for those things so that's why.

If this is a community mod, why is he exempt?

This is not a community mod. It has people from the C2C community, but we still have to accept them to the team, just like any other mod on CFC. There are plenty of content out there on the CFC that we do not included in C2C. Some because we don't want it, others because it doesn't fit our theme (aka Magic) and others because we just have not added it yet. We may be the "more is more" mod but we are not the "everything" mod even though sometimes its seems that way.

The same with adding new Cultures , Buildings, and Technologies. Isn't Azure the Technologist, Faustmouse the Buildings, and Sargon the Culturist? Why does he decide what gets added?

While many of use fill set roles, many of us have done it all, SO and I have added plenty of techs over the years but we have stepped back to let others help us to lighten our workload. Also many people on the team have taken up new skills and have worked on other parts of the mod. And really the more skills one can do the stronger the team gets. Especially if we loose team members and have to pick up the slack in their absence.

I also noticed from threads, his decision seems to be final and you cant appeal it. I f people highly disagree about something, and he wants it in, he gets the "final vote". Why does he have this privilege, when others don't...not even StategyOnly has this privilege .

Not true. Like I said before my ideas have been shot down too. And the reason I have a say over many of the aspects of the mod is because I have been here since the beginning of C2C, SO has said he trust my judgement, others on the team can always debate my derision and I typically listen to the players too. Heck I even watch C2C Let's Plays on YouTube and see what they have to say.

I am often the check and balance to HydromancerX. Although this does not always work.

This is true. Infact sometimes I even ask other modders to voice their opinion on topics if I see they have not been posting in the thread. I also send and get PMs from other team members. SO frequently check on us too. He is much more of a behinds the scenes leader than you would think.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Maybe your main question first: Hydro was one of the three founders of C2C (along with StrategyOnly and I THINK Dancing Hoskuld). That's why he has what you call "immunity". Sometimes I REALLY don't agree with him but then I think he has the most experience and so it would be good for the game in some way...

yes, It was SO, DH and I that made C2C in the beginning. Note before that it was DH and SO wit the prehistoric NWA mod. It was a nice mod, but it was not nearly as ambitious as C2C. Likewise I had my own HAND mod which was an add-on mod to RoM/AND which was also nice but not nearly as epic as the idea of C2C.

He is, more or less, the coordinator of us "creators" (at least Sargon, Yudishtira, Mr Azure and me). Until 6 months ago, he added buildings by himself. Then I asked him to add some buildings and he showed me how to do it myself. Now he comes up with buildings and I code them for him. He is my tutor if you want to say that. Mr Azure proposed A LOT of Transhuman stuff and Hydro take a look over it and make buildings out of it which I code then. Hydro is also the tutor of Yudishtira. He was asking if someone wants to take over Units (since the guy who did it before left to Civ5) and Yudishtira was interested and is doing a great job now. If you learn basic coding, you can easily other stuff, for example Sargon started with only Wonders and now makes heros, I did some Alternate Timeline Stuff and Resources etc.

Exactly. Thunderbd started out like you guys too an eventually "graduated" into a high level modder. ls612 went through the same process before he decided to leave. Note I could still veto TB's stuff if I wanted but most everything he has come up with I have liked. DH I am not sure if he likes TB's combat mod. And AIAndy and Koshling are mostly over my head in their stuff so I don't really have a say in what they do other than wish lists for new XML code.

My ultimate goal for Fausmouse, Sargon, Yudishtira and even MrAzure is to get to the level where they can make their own stuff and need my minimal input like Thunderbrd. And having modmods are a great way for them to do that. But like I said before MrAzure is a special case in that he was here and then came back, so there are some trust issues still around.

 

[Galacticat42]

Oh man, I feel forgotten.

I guess to the new guys I'm just someone who occasionally voices my opinions and that's become rather true, but my roots go deep here. Between three mods (one whole and two partial, all of which integrated with either RoM, AND or C2C), I must say that my contributions are on the heavy (yet unnoticed) side. I know it was Afforess that got Hyrdo into modding, but I did help in getting Hydro familiar with XML. If I remember correctly, Hydro would ask Afforess to add something, but Afforess had a lot on his plate, so told Hyrdo to learn to deal with XML. So I showed him.

As for HydromancerX having 'immunity' I would have to disagree with this. It was between the two of us that we fleshed out the majority of the galactic era before Azure came in, but in the way of buildings, I think C2C is more akin to his playground of building ideas where AND was kindling to his thoughts. Undeniably the mod needs a whole re-balance, but it's debatable whether the buildings he added are actually the source or if the underlying system needs an overhaul.

I guess I've gone through so many creative burnouts that I've quit modding on Civilization games altogether to give myself this trivial position in the C2C community. To be honest I do miss modding on Civ, but due to too many frustrations and burnouts, it's not exactly worth the trouble. I've actually found my anxiety levels to go way down when I'm not doing repetitive XML or debugging Python (Always python. I abhor the language. I was fine doing Lua or C++ though).

 

[Hydromancerx]

Oh man, I feel forgotten.

I did mention you here ...

- Most of the tech tree. Especially the Prehistoric and Galactic Era (with Civ Fuehrer's help)

But seriously all of the AtoM stuff we worked on before C2C was even thought of became an important part of C2C. I remember coding so much for that stuff and going over all the techs and stuff with you.

So yeah, without you there would not be a Cosmos part of the C2C.

And yes you, Afforess and other others helped me learn XML back in the AND days. It was the best thing you could have done for me since before I was just begging people to make buildings for me. As the old proverb says ...

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

And I have caught a lot of fish now.

 

[JosEPh_II]

And one more side note: from the early years until just recently, while not an "official" member of the team, I was (like DH) a counter balance to Hydro and a hard Critic at times. I've known him since the early Rise of Mankind/ A New Dawn Modmod days. I supported Hydro's early work with Afforess ( I really enjoyed his early "farm building line" which became the basis for his HAND mod(modmod). Once we called each other friends here.

But I'm not as active as I once was, getting too to fight any more. Because Hydro and I have had some knockdown dragged out fights over some of his "concepts" and game play. So I watch from the sidelines now and chip in a comment once in a while. (It doesn't take long to be forgotten).

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

Because Hydro and I have had some knockdown dragged out fights over some of his "concepts" and game play.
JosEPh

I think you have dont that with almost everyone haven't you But at the end dont "ya" think its worth it, I personally do, so thx.

 

[JamesBC]

I guess I've gone through so many creative burnouts that I've quit modding on Civilization games altogether to give myself this trivial position in the C2C community. To be honest I do miss modding on Civ, but due to too many frustrations and burnouts, it's not exactly worth the trouble. I've actually found my anxiety levels to go way down when I'm not doing repetitive XML or debugging Python (Always python. I abhor the language. I was fine doing Lua or C++ though).

Python; you either love it or hate it. I wonder if creative burnouts are caused because there are multiple opinions among players about things.

I know at game companies the game design is usually created in close doors and rigid when it comes to player input. Here its more fluid and player feedback is what guide decisions. I guess that's because C2C is a mod with volunteers.

 

[ls612]

Back before I took my hiatus I was a content creator (mostly units) and balance person who also did programming (C++). I normally sided with Joe as a counterweight against some of Hydro and TB's ideas and generally tried to streamline things (as opposed to making them more complex, we already win the award for most complex civ mod ever). I left because the team turned against my ideas and decisively towards Hydro's and TB's ideas.

Generally though before that, given that I was sort of a transition between the 'old guard' on the team and the new people who rotated in and out I generally had a lot of sway on things. One of the things though that sort of irritated me was that we seemed to be sort of twitchy and reactive in development. For instance, Hydro would change something, Joe, myself and others would react against it, and someone would change it back without having much of a discussion on the matter. I've been guilty of making some of those sorts of changes as well. But this sort of process without central direction was and has been IMO detrimental to C2C, and really wore me out earlier this year, which is why I left for a while.

What the solution is, I don't know. We've had some closed door discussions on the matter in the past, but that is all I will say. But in order for me to really come back and feel good about C2C some sort of order needs to be established.

 

[Faustmouse]

But in order for me to really come back and feel good about C2C some sort of order needs to be established.

Yes, I think so, too. When I stumbled over C2C (I think it was the first version that included subdued animals) from what I've read, there was some structure in the team. The whole team worked on one idea and when this ideas was considered completed, a new version was released. Then the whole team moved to another idea for the next release.
It would be best if such structure could be (re-)established. I think this would really benefit the mod.