The Case Against Hyuana Cupac
- Thread starter AbsoluteZero
- Start date
Really enjoyed watching the game so far (I'm halfway through 'Part 5'), but honestly, if I hear "Cavalry" referred to as "Calvary" once more ...
With that said, I appreciate the effort ... warts and all!
Dirk1302
Deity
I like the UB a lot, one of the best in the game imo. The only things i don't like so much are myst as start tech and industrious because it doesn't suit my style of playing too much. If i play Inca i don't use quecha's for rushing or choking because this unit is too strong against ais otherwise.Well, but exactly this IS one of the main reasons why HC is overpowered in singleplayer. Along with his Top UB that AZ doesn't seem to like that much for whatever reason, paired with his great traitcombo that allows you for almost every opening in almost every maplayout. If he'd have another starting tech other than Myst, mining or wheel for example, he'd be even more overpowered and there'd be no discussion which leader is the strongest. Personally i don't like to play him, and i'd rather take CRE + X than FIN+IND, but still HC is a beast.
In MP it's another case, but when we're talking about SP you have to consider this when talking about the strength of a leader i believe
Yes, the UB is great.
Yes, IND isn't one of my fav. traits either, but it helps with alot of openings. It's his traitset combined with his UU that allows almost every opening - REX (Fin+quechas), small focused empire (Fin+Ind), wonderwhoring/religions (ind), all out rush (quechas for choking if needed, fin for the techs), several slingshots (ind/fin -> oracle while save from barbs with quechas) - name it and you'll get it. Alot of this comes down to the quechas indeed, they're just awesome in every single way, but the traits support this by an large amount. It's hard to think about opening where HC doesn't come out Top5 if you take all leaders into account - maybe for "special" maps like AW he's worse. Even if you do not abuse the full strength of quechas the traits remain pretty solid and the UB is great.
And yes, Myst as a starting tech is maybe the worst of them all. Especially for HC with Terrace.
Usually i don't play HC at all because of the Quechas. On most common maps they make the game sort of "too easy".
ShaggyPorkchop
Chieftain
just watched these on youtube, good times
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
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- 13,474
Settling on top of a Plains Horse square nets you +1 Hammer on the City Centre square, so I'll do so on occasion. It's when settling on top of a Grassland Horse square that you've wasted the opportunity to work a good square and I'd probably only do so if it is the only way to reach another Resource, such as a Fish, or if it's a one-square island and there is no choice of where to settle.
The reason is that your City Centre square will get 2 Food + 1 Hammer + 1 Commerce unless the square without "Features" produces more than one of those numbers, in which case you'll get that number instead.
G Horse = 2 F + 1 H
P Horse = 1 F + 2 H
2 F from the G Horse square does not beat the base 2 F assigned to a City Centre square, while 1 H from the G Horse square also does not beat the base 1 H assigned to a City Centre square, so you'll still only get the normal 2 F + 1 H + 1 C by settling on a G Horse square.
For the P Horse square, since its 2 H > 1 H that the City Centre square normally gets assigned, your City Centre will provide 2 F + 2 H + 1 C.
Settling on top of a Grassland Hills Pig square would not net you any additional Food on the City, since that square, like a Grassland Horse square, only has a base of 2 F + 1 H, so settling on a GH Pig square would also be as poor of a move as settling on a Grassland Horse square.
Generally, though, I'd avoid settling on top of Pig and Horse Resources, as they are strong squares when improved: a Grassland Pig nets you 4 Food (6 Food - 2 Food consumed by a citizen), which is hard to come by. For example, a Grassland Corn will only net you 3 Food unless it has access to Fresh Water, meaning that it nets you 3 Food (5 F - 2 F) unless it has access to Fresh Water, in which case it will net you 4 Food (6 F - 2 F).
Of course, a G Corn square with access to Fresh Water and with the Biology tech will net you 5 Food (7 F - 2 F), but that tech is far off.
Meanwhile, a Horse square will net you 4 inputs, the same as a Pig square:
G Horse nets you 3 H + 1 C
P Horse nets you -1 F + 4 H + 1 C
Compared to a Grassland Forest, which nets you 1 output (2 Food - 2 Food + 1 Hammer = 1 Hammer), it's almost always much better to work an improved Pig or a Horse than to settle on top of one.
That said, your game situation will determine when to make exceptions... maybe you're playing a One City Challenge game where, if you settle on a G Pig square, you'll get an extra G Pig square in your big fat cross that you can work... in that case, you still gain +1 Food from the City Centre square by settling on the G Pig while also being able to earn a net +4 Food from working the other G Pig, once it gets Pastured. Outside of a One City Challenge game, you might only be able to work a Ocean Fish if you settle on top of a G Pig, for example. But, in general, Pig squares and Horse squares are too strong of squares to waste by settling on top of them.
Oh, and if it's a Riverside Pig or Horse, you'll hurt yourself even more by settling on it instead of working it, as by working the square, you'd earn another net +1 Commerce, for a total of 5 inputs from a single square, 5 times as many as from a Grassland Forest square.
The reason is that your City Centre square will get 2 Food + 1 Hammer + 1 Commerce unless the square without "Features" produces more than one of those numbers, in which case you'll get that number instead.
G Horse = 2 F + 1 H
P Horse = 1 F + 2 H
2 F from the G Horse square does not beat the base 2 F assigned to a City Centre square, while 1 H from the G Horse square also does not beat the base 1 H assigned to a City Centre square, so you'll still only get the normal 2 F + 1 H + 1 C by settling on a G Horse square.
For the P Horse square, since its 2 H > 1 H that the City Centre square normally gets assigned, your City Centre will provide 2 F + 2 H + 1 C.
Settling on top of a Grassland Hills Pig square would not net you any additional Food on the City, since that square, like a Grassland Horse square, only has a base of 2 F + 1 H, so settling on a GH Pig square would also be as poor of a move as settling on a Grassland Horse square.
Generally, though, I'd avoid settling on top of Pig and Horse Resources, as they are strong squares when improved: a Grassland Pig nets you 4 Food (6 Food - 2 Food consumed by a citizen), which is hard to come by. For example, a Grassland Corn will only net you 3 Food unless it has access to Fresh Water, meaning that it nets you 3 Food (5 F - 2 F) unless it has access to Fresh Water, in which case it will net you 4 Food (6 F - 2 F).
Of course, a G Corn square with access to Fresh Water and with the Biology tech will net you 5 Food (7 F - 2 F), but that tech is far off.
Meanwhile, a Horse square will net you 4 inputs, the same as a Pig square:
G Horse nets you 3 H + 1 C
P Horse nets you -1 F + 4 H + 1 C
Compared to a Grassland Forest, which nets you 1 output (2 Food - 2 Food + 1 Hammer = 1 Hammer), it's almost always much better to work an improved Pig or a Horse than to settle on top of one.
That said, your game situation will determine when to make exceptions... maybe you're playing a One City Challenge game where, if you settle on a G Pig square, you'll get an extra G Pig square in your big fat cross that you can work... in that case, you still gain +1 Food from the City Centre square by settling on the G Pig while also being able to earn a net +4 Food from working the other G Pig, once it gets Pastured. Outside of a One City Challenge game, you might only be able to work a Ocean Fish if you settle on top of a G Pig, for example. But, in general, Pig squares and Horse squares are too strong of squares to waste by settling on top of them.
Oh, and if it's a Riverside Pig or Horse, you'll hurt yourself even more by settling on it instead of working it, as by working the square, you'd earn another net +1 Commerce, for a total of 5 inputs from a single square, 5 times as many as from a Grassland Forest square.
@ AZ I gotta axe you a question. Why, oh why, would you build axes over quechuas? On a HP per 
basis, Unpromoted quechuas are 49% the cost of Axemen (per HP). With one promotion, quechuas are 45% the cost and with 2 promotions, quechuas are 40% the cost per HP. The only reason I can come up with is that you want to have CRII or CRIII axes for the next civ that will have melee. If so, you still want to soften up every archer by attacking with a quechua, before killing with the axe.
Quechua 15 vs Axeman 35
Unpromoted Quechua vs Axeman
3.6/
VS 7/
Quechua 49% cheaper per
2/2 XP Quechua - Combat I (Free) and Cover VS Axeman City Raider I
3.2/ VS 5.8/
Quechua 45% cheaper per
5/2 XP Quechua Combat I (Free), Cover, CRI VS Axeman City Raider I and II
2.9/4.8/
Quechua 40% cheaper/
EDIT: I see you decided to useswords catapults and not axes. Against Lincolns archers, still not a great deal.
EDIT: NEVERMIND!!! I see that this is a necro thread!
basis, Unpromoted quechuas are 49% the cost of Axemen (per HP). With one promotion, quechuas are 45% the cost and with 2 promotions, quechuas are 40% the cost per HP. The only reason I can come up with is that you want to have CRII or CRIII axes for the next civ that will have melee. If so, you still want to soften up every archer by attacking with a quechua, before killing with the axe.Quechua 15
vs Axeman 35Unpromoted Quechua vs Axeman
3.6
/ VS 7/Quechua 49% cheaper per
2/2 XP Quechua - Combat I (Free) and Cover VS Axeman City Raider I
3.2
/ VS 5.8/Quechua 45% cheaper per
5/2 XP Quechua Combat I (Free), Cover, CRI VS Axeman City Raider I and II
2.9
/4.8/Quechua 40% cheaper/
Code:
Quechua 15 hammers Axeman 35 hammers
Upromoted 4.2(HP) vs archers 5(HP) vs archers
3.6 hammers per (HP) 7 hammers per (HP)
Quechau 49% cheaper per hammer
2/2 XP Combat I (Free) and Cover City Raider
4.7 (HP) vs archers 6 (HP) vs archers
3.2hammers per (HP) 5.8 hammers per(HP)
Quechau 45% cheaper per hammer
5/2 XP Combat I (Free), Cover, CRI City Raider I and II
5.1 (HP) vs archers 7.25 (HP) vs archers
2.9hammersper(HP) 4.8hammersper(HP)
Quechau 40% cheaper per hammerEDIT: I see you decided to use
EDIT: NEVERMIND!!! I see that this is a necro thread!
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2011
- Messages
- 8,165
@ AZ I gotta axe you a question. Why, oh why, would you build axes over quechuas? On a HP per
Quechua 15
Unpromoted Quechua vs Axeman
3.6
Quechua 49% cheaper per
2/2 XP Quechua - Combat I (Free) and Cover VS Axeman City Raider I
3.2
Quechua 45% cheaper per
5/2 XP Quechua Combat I (Free), Cover, CRI VS Axeman City Raider I and II
2.9
Quechua 40% cheaper/
Code:Quechua 15 hammers Axeman 35 hammers Upromoted 4.2(HP) vs archers 5(HP) vs archers 3.6 hammers per (HP) 7 hammers per (HP) Quechau 49% cheaper per hammer 2/2 XP Combat I (Free) and Cover City Raider 4.7 (HP) vs archers 6 (HP) vs archers 3.2hammers per (HP) 5.8 hammers per(HP) Quechau 45% cheaper per hammer 5/2 XP Combat I (Free), Cover, CRI City Raider I and II 5.1 (HP) vs archers 7.25 (HP) vs archers 2.9hammersper(HP) 4.8hammersper(HP) Quechau 40% cheaper per hammer
EDIT: I see you decided to useswordscatapults and not axes. Against Lincolns archers, still not a great deal.
EDIT: NEVERMIND!!! I see that this is a necro thread!
@ shulec:
I know, that you wrote "nvm" , but you actually make a very common but very decisive mistake when calculating the strengths of units. Cover, Shock, Pinch, City-Raider and all of those bonuses that are situational, so basically everything except Combat, get subtracted from the defender. It's quite a complicated calculation, about which I found this guide to explain quite well.
Thanks, good to know.
Most of his videos on YouTube are Heroes 3 now, I guess that's because this is what most of his viewers want. I hope he will make more IV videos.
