The case for Tobacco (not the musician)

[MadDjinn]

tobacco doesn't grow in deserts.

civ V incense icon. looks basically the same.

 

[Amrunril]

I agree that the icon looks a lot more like incense. I have no idea whether tobacco will be in the game, but if it is, the icon won't be a modern ash tray. That would look tacky and not fit at all with the game's overall aesthetic.

 

[moysturfurmer]

I agree that the icon looks a lot more like incense. I have no idea whether tobacco will be in the game, but if it is, the icon won't be a modern ash tray. That would look tacky and not fit at all with the game's overall aesthetic.

Well whether or not it's tobacco or incense is another question entirely. Fact is, a lot of resource icons this time around go for modern "goods" representations of the commodities. Copper Piping, Bottled Milk, Tea Bags, Chocolate Bars, Salt Shakers, etc.

 

[Red Menace]

tobacco doesn't grow in deserts.

civ V incense icon. looks basically the same.

Spoiler :

I did mention that it was only on desert tiles in the first look videos.

im just hoping they have a lot more resources in general, I always thought civ V didn't have enough.

 

[Deggial]

tobacco doesn't grow in deserts.

True. On the other hand - the ressource's model definitely looks like tobacco leaves and is fixed as such.
Its placement, however, isn't and the ressource might very well have been placed there by hand without the intended restrictions in the final game.
Or Firaxis might be a bit sloppy in respect to the plant's biology here.

Anyway, I tend to weight the model itself higher than its placement in the pictures we have seen so far.

 

[WillowBrook]

Tobacco was also added as bonus resource in civ 3's conquests expansion. It was quite unimpressive at +1 commerce.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Seriously, (at least compared to my last post!) it's most unlikely to be Tobacco simply because it would complicate the game enormously. On the one hand, it was and is quite addictive and attractive, so it takes its place among similar 'addictive' resources already in the game: Tea, Coffee and Wine. On the other hand, it has probably got more serious Health negatives directly attributable to it than any other Resource in the game, and how do you model that?
- and if you DON'T model the negative Health effects, expect to have Protests about the game, from groups that could include the AMA. Not helpful to your marketing people.

On the other hand, it's good to see that they are including more Resources in the game (I believe Tea, Coffee and possibly Jade are all new additions) but they are still missing some very important tradable and, historically, widely adopted 'resources':

Olives and Olive Oil - one of the major trade goods of the Classical Mediterranean, with Food, Health, Happiness, and potential Cultural/Religious effects
The Potato - which allows not only almost a doubling of the caloric output from the same fields, but also can be planted in marginal soils, latitudes and elevations. Could be the 'resource' that allows you to farm Tundra and Hills more effectively. Historically, it caused a big population 'boom' all over northern Europe, not just Ireland.

And, of course, as long as Civ VI is using an 'Amenity' system that seems to divorce the precise effect from the Resource (Cloves and Cinnamon resources from Zanzibar the City State are said to provide '6 Amenities'), then it would be a shame if they don't add 'manufactured Resources':

Liquor - distilled spirits are a major Trade Good - just ask Canada and Scotland - but not available until Distilling in the late Middle Ages.
Jewelry - which can be manufactured from Gold, Silver, Copper, Pearls, Jade, etc, but provides a distinctly higher value than the 'raw materials'
Fine Ceramic - by this I mean not only Porcelain, which might still be a separate resource, but also the finely decorated 'conventional' pottery like the Greek Attic Ware in red or black (a major source of income for Classical Athens) or 'exotic' ceramics like Wedgwood pottery.
Glass - Roman, Egyptian, and Venetian glass were all very lucrative trade items, so this is potentially both an early and continuing trade and cash resource.

Of course, if they do it right (Hah!) from the Industrial Era on the bulk of trade and cash from trade will be in Manufactured Goods: cloth, clothing, personal electronics, automobiles, 'intellectual property' - including the historically and still-significant Movies - given their 'cash cow' effect and Popular Culture effect, why were they left out of the Great Works system of Civ V in the first place?

We still have lots to learn about the Civ VI resources and precisely how they are used and their effects in the game, but so far at least, I'm cautiously optimistic that their effects both internal (health, contentment) and external (trade, cash flow) on Civilizations and States will be better modeled than they were in Civ V.

 

[Red Menace]

True. On the other hand - the ressource's model definitely looks like tobacco leaves and is fixed as such.
Its placement, however, isn't and the ressource might very well have been placed there by hand without the intended restrictions in the final game.
Or Firaxis might be a bit sloppy in respect to the plant's biology here.

Anyway, I tend to weight the model itself higher than its placement in the pictures we have seen so far.

I've also noticed that it looks a lot like Tobacco, it also doesn't look anything like incense of Civ V which looks similar to Civ IV's

Spoiler :

overall there's decent evidence to support both, but I'm going with tobacco maybe using the Incense image as placeholder art. or vice versa.

and if you DON'T model the negative Health effects, expect to have Protests about the game, from groups that could include the AMA. Not helpful to your marketing people.

the sad thing is some people might actually take offense, but probably not the people playing the game.

Liquor - distilled spirits are a major Trade Good - just ask Canada and Scotland - but not available until Distilling in the late Middle Ages.
Jewelry - which can be manufactured from Gold, Silver, Copper, Pearls, Jade, etc, but provides a distinctly higher value than the 'raw materials'
Fine Ceramic - by this I mean not only Porcelain, which might still be a separate resource, but also the finely decorated 'conventional' pottery like the Greek Attic Ware in red or black (a major source of income for Classical Athens) or 'exotic' ceramics like Wedgwood pottery.
Glass - Roman, Egyptian, and Venetian glass were all very lucrative trade items, so this is potentially both an early and continuing trade and cash resource.

I would love to see more City-State luxuries, I thought it was a cool idea in Civ V but only having 2 unique luxes was really lame. and the idea of manufactured Luxuries also have a good possibility of making it in through expansions, that would be great.

 

[Battlehelm043]

tobacco doesn't grow in deserts.

civ V incense icon. looks basically the same.

Spoiler :

Yes, but maybe if you just believe hard enough it could be possible... hahaha

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Seriously, (at least compared to my last post!) it's most unlikely to be Tobacco simply because it would complicate the game enormously. On the one hand, it was and is quite addictive and attractive, so it takes its place among similar 'addictive' resources already in the game: Tea, Coffee and Wine. On the other hand, it has probably got more serious Health negatives directly attributable to it than any other Resource in the game, and how do you model that?
- and if you DON'T model the negative Health effects, expect to have Protests about the game, from groups that could include the AMA. Not helpful to your marketing people.

On the other hand, it's good to see that they are including more Resources in the game (I believe Tea, Coffee and possibly Jade are all new additions) but they are still missing some very important tradable and, historically, widely adopted 'resources':

Olives and Olive Oil - one of the major trade goods of the Classical Mediterranean, with Food, Health, Happiness, and potential Cultural/Religious effects
The Potato - which allows not only almost a doubling of the caloric output from the same fields, but also can be planted in marginal soils, latitudes and elevations. Could be the 'resource' that allows you to farm Tundra and Hills more effectively. Historically, it caused a big population 'boom' all over northern Europe, not just Ireland.

And, of course, as long as Civ VI is using an 'Amenity' system that seems to divorce the precise effect from the Resource (Cloves and Cinnamon resources from Zanzibar the City State are said to provide '6 Amenities'), then it would be a shame if they don't add 'manufactured Resources':

Liquor - distilled spirits are a major Trade Good - just ask Canada and Scotland - but not available until Distilling in the late Middle Ages.
Jewelry - which can be manufactured from Gold, Silver, Copper, Pearls, Jade, etc, but provides a distinctly higher value than the 'raw materials'
Fine Ceramic - by this I mean not only Porcelain, which might still be a separate resource, but also the finely decorated 'conventional' pottery like the Greek Attic Ware in red or black (a major source of income for Classical Athens) or 'exotic' ceramics like Wedgwood pottery.
Glass - Roman, Egyptian, and Venetian glass were all very lucrative trade items, so this is potentially both an early and continuing trade and cash resource.

Of course, if they do it right (Hah!) from the Industrial Era on the bulk of trade and cash from trade will be in Manufactured Goods: cloth, clothing, personal electronics, automobiles, 'intellectual property' - including the historically and still-significant Movies - given their 'cash cow' effect and Popular Culture effect, why were they left out of the Great Works system of Civ V in the first place?

We still have lots to learn about the Civ VI resources and precisely how they are used and their effects in the game, but so far at least, I'm cautiously optimistic that their effects both internal (health, contentment) and external (trade, cash flow) on Civilizations and States will be better modeled than they were in Civ V.

Honestly if they want historically significant reources, then the glaring omission isn't tobacco, but "poppies" one of the only 'luxury' resources to cause a war between two major powers.

 

[Zaarin]

Honestly if they want historically significant reources, then the glaring omission isn't tobacco, but "poppies" one of the only 'luxury' resources to cause a war between two major powers.

I'm inclined to agree that the omission of opium is definitely a case of favoring PC over historical significance, which stretches back far longer than the Opium Wars. In fact, the use of opium--both medicinal and psychotropic--is probably prehistoric.

 

[Olleus]

Honestly if they want historically significant reources, then the glaring omission isn't tobacco, but "poppies" one of the only 'luxury' resources to cause a war between two major powers.

Only the opium wars weren't about controlling the resource. It was about the right to sell it in a foreign country.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Only the opium wars weren't about controlling the resource. It was about the right to sell it in a foreign country.

Specifically, to sell it to offset the cost of importing Tea, and to a lesser extent Silk and Porcelain, from China. Ironically, neither Opium nor Tea were in Civ V, while (apparently, from evidence so far) Tea and Coffee have both been added to Civ VI.

Still think that Opium would be a long shot, because it is indeliably connected with Narco-Terrorism.

BUT at least we can hope that access to Tea and Coffee will be linked to building of Tea and Coffeehouses (Coffeehouse having been used as A UB for Austria in Civ V) and maybe, faint hope, the huge influence of the Tea, Silk, Porcelain, and Spice trade will be shown by weighting the 'Amenities' from them accordingly.

 

[Olleus]

I think the best way to improve the resource system is to improve trade routes. I know in Civ5 its based partly on buildings and on "resource difference" but 99% of the time the best thing to do is have a ship going from the largest city to the largest city.

If they could somehow recreate the silk road, I'd be damned impressed. Something like having a (massive) bonus if a trade route flows in the same direction as "leader level" trade. So if I'm importing oil from Arabia, trade routes from Arabian cities with oil to me have a much bigger value. Maybe also give trade route yield bonuses for each other trade route departing from the destination and arriving at the origin? That way trade would have a tendency to flow along in a line in a meta-stable state. Until a war happens, the trade gets disrupted, and then all flows along a different line, never to return. Seems both fun and historically accurate to me.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think the best way to improve the resource system is to improve trade routes.

Resources and Trade are both parts of a system that desperately needs a major revision.

First, we don't need two separate Trade systems in Civ VI as we had in Civ V: one system that is distance-independent for trading Luxury or strategic resources between Civilizations, and one Cargo Vessel/Caravansary, Harbor, distance dependant system for Gold and influence between cities. WTF?

One system. Distance counts, resources you apply to trade routes count, but to keep you from being cut off from required Strategic Resources or 'amenity' producing Luxuries, you should, under careful circumstances, be able to trade with Barbarians, and the length of the Route should vary with the value of the cargo: High Value = Merchants going lower distances.

Trading specific Resources, luxury or strategic, would make the trade routes more valuable. Since the apparent (from what's been revealed so far) Amenity system can vary the amount of 'amenities' per resource, certain resources should be very, very Valuable: historically Silk, Porcelain, Spices, and, of course, required strategic resources like Oil, Ship Timber, and the classic 'valuables': Gold, Silver, Pearls, Jade.

Trade Silk for Gold/Silver, and the high value of goods in both directions would make that route very, very valuable. The game should make the length of a trade route dependent on the Amenity Value of the goods/resources being traded: Historically, merchants went a long way for Spices, Silk or Silver/Gold. For that matter, the Tin required for Bronze had traders ranging from Cornwall in the British Isles to Afghanistan, so "Value-Added" Trade Routes should be much, much longer than they are in Civ V.

Scarcity Should Count: some Resources were only available in a few places originally: Silk (1 place) Tea (1 place) Cotton (2 - 3 places depending on how you divide up the Americas) Spices (all in one part of the world: Southeast Asia at first, giving them HUGE value in Europe/Mediterranean area).

Include even some of these factors in an integrated, one System For Everything, and we might start seeing Trade become as important in Civ as it has been in history.

 

[Zaarin]

Spices (all in one part of the world: Southeast Asia at first, giving them HUGE value in Europe/Mediterranean area).

Except this one doesn't work so long as "Spices" is not divided up into its constituent parts. I presume you're hinting at the "Spice Islands," i.e., Indonesia and Southeast Asia. That works for things like nutmeg/mace, allspice, etc. But what about cinnamon from Sri Lanka? Cardamom and saffron (third and first most expensive spices in the world) from India? Vanilla from South America? Fennel, coriander, cumin, and capers from the Middle East? Asafoetida from North Africa? Black pepper from China? Parsley, rosemary, thyme, basil, etc. from Europe? Point being, there are spices found all over the world, not just Southeast Asia.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Except this one doesn't work so long as "Spices" is not divided up into its constituent parts. I presume you're hinting at the "Spice Islands," i.e., Indonesia and Southeast Asia. That works for things like nutmeg/mace, allspice, etc. But what about cinnamon from Sri Lanka? Cardamom and saffron (third and first most expensive spices in the world) from India? Vanilla from South America? Fennel, coriander, cumin, and capers from the Middle East? Asafoetida from North Africa? Black pepper from China? Parsley, rosemary, thyme, basil, etc. from Europe? Point being, there are spices found all over the world, not just Southeast Asia.

I was thinking primarily of the 'classical' trade in cardamon and saffron to Rome, which resulted in an economically-disastrous outflow of gold and silver from the Mediterranean, but you're right, of course - and this may be why Civ VI already is representing Cinnamon and Cloves separately.
It was the exotic nature of spice, as long as they came from Somewhere Else and couldn't be duplicated at home, that made them so valuable in Trade, so hopefully, Civ VI will go further in representing this...

 

[MadDjinn]

doesn't CiV already sort of model that via luxuries being spread all over the map with clusters?

So you only get something local, but should be trading (cost) to get others from other areas of the world?

 

[Zaarin]

I was thinking primarily of the 'classical' trade in cardamon and saffron to Rome, which resulted in an economically-disastrous outflow of gold and silver from the Mediterranean, but you're right, of course - and this may be why Civ VI already is representing Cinnamon and Cloves separately.
It was the exotic nature of spice, as long as they came from Somewhere Else and couldn't be duplicated at home, that made them so valuable in Trade, so hopefully, Civ VI will go further in representing this...

I agree, I want to see at least some of the more important spices (cinnamon, cardamom, saffron, cloves, nutmeg, etc.) depicted individually, especially since many spices have other uses--cinnamon in incense or saffron as a dye, for example.

doesn't CiV already sort of model that via luxuries being spread all over the map with clusters?

So you only get something local, but should be trading (cost) to get others from other areas of the world?

My game before last, I had every last tile of copper on the map--as Arabia. There weren't even enough civs for me to trade it all to.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

doesn't CiV already sort of model that via luxuries being spread all over the map with clusters?

So you only get something local, but should be trading (cost) to get others from other areas of the world?

Right, but as usual in Civs past, they didn't follow up:

There's no extra benefit for having a monopoly.

There's no extra benefit for having a monopoly or primary control over what was, historically, a very, very desirable Resource, like Silk, Gold, Silver, or Spices.

Even in a 'generic' Trade Route that is not specifically carrying any of the above resources, there is no advantage from trading with a destination in a completely different terrain or climate, and thus (presumably) having access to all sorts of peculiar and 'exotic' things you don't.

In too many games, I or an AI opponent have the only source of some resource, but I still get offered the same trades for it as if it were abundant. Thre is, basically, no real economics in the current Trade System, and that needs to change in Civ VI...