The CavKaz Treaty

[donsig]

Thing is we have already asked them point 1) and they really don't want to. As far as I am aware, I think most people on our side are also happy for them to pass through before we have open borders.

When did we ask them that? What the heck was their answer? Why is it so important that they pass right now?

Regarding point 2) this also prevents us from negotiating our own tech trade with civ3. saying we can't trade any techs with another team without their approval pretty much removes the point of our workboat getting to team 3 first.

Exclusivity does not mean we can't make a trade with civ 3. It just means we'd have to include Team Cav in on any profits just as Team Cav would have to cut us in on any deal they want to make. Without exclusivity all that will happen is we will deal with the civ we meet by sailing counter-clockwise and Team Cav will deal with the one they meet by sailing clockwise. How does that get us or our partners ahead of anyone?

So then why bother delaying their workboat?

In order to show them that they cannot just assume we will agree to what they want and to be sure they will respect our wishes in future negotiations. Our team seems to want to bend over backwards to please Team Cav. Not a good impression to give them. Their workboat passing our lands is of no consequence to either team so it is the perfect thing to take issue with.

 

[Kaleb]

This will not fly. Oracle will not be completed as soon as you may think, they will have it ready before turn 70, most likely turn 68. They also need us to transfer hunting and animal husbandry right away (we need to show good faith here). They will not burn us for a few beakers in the lower end of techs.


This is the trade sequence Niklas sanctions. I know we got a few hardliners in our team, but this is the best we can do. Thinking only zero-sum games here would do us no good.

T66 Writing, Animal Husbandry and Hunting for Meditation
T67 Priesthood gifted to Kazakhstan
T68 Alphabet for Monarchy
T69: - Oracle completed, Feudalism transferred to us. by turn 69

Are you saying that Team Cav are going to take 18 turns to build Oracle?

And does this mean you no longer support Indiansmoke's proposal?

1. We trade writting + Alpha for monarchy + medi + priesthood and they shoot for Feudalism off Oracle...IF they get it, we give them AH and hunting and they give us Feudalism...if they lose it..tough luck for both of us, we give them nothing more.

I back up Indiansmokes proposal, this is what I want at least. Now we got three votes for Indiansmokes proposal. (Indiansmoke, Kaleb and Provo).

COL and Feudalism are already handled. We get a first shot on CoL, should we want it. If we dont want it, the first shot is lost.

If they aren't going to get Oracle until turn 69 then they don't need writing until turn 69. But we can give them AH earlier if they are in desperate need of it. We can then hold back on Alphabet until Feudalism is completed and trade it then.

 

[Provolution]

Are you saying that Team Cav are going to take 18 turns to build Oracle?

And does this mean you no longer support Indiansmoke's proposal?



If they aren't going to get Oracle until turn 69 then they don't need writing until turn 69. But we can give them AH earlier if they are in desperate need of it. We can then hold back on Alphabet until Feudalism is completed and trade it then.

Very bad idea, they need Writing as a prereq for Feudalism, so please do not get difficult now, when we are so close. We may risk killing the deal.

 

[Kaleb]

When did we ask them that? What the heck was their answer? Why is it so important that they pass right now?

It's in Provo's chat logs. There are people in their team that think we are delaying things in order to give us more time with the 3rd to make our own negotiations without them.

In order to show them that they cannot just assume we will agree to what they want and to be sure they will respect our wishes in future negotiations. Our team seems to want to bend over backwards to please Team Cav. Not a good impression to give them. Their workboat passing our lands is of no consequence to either team so it is the perfect thing to take issue with.

Quite the contrary, it's precisely because it's of no consequence that I don't see it being something worth making a fuss over.

We do very well out of the tech trade deal that we are proposing. We get a very expensive technology without having to pause and build a wonder to get it. Letting their workboat through is not bending over backwards, it's only a very minor concession we are giving that they could just do anyway if they wanted. They are bending over more than we are by offering us such an expensive tech so much cheaper than it's worth.

 

[Provolution]

It's in Provo's chat logs. There are people in their team that think we are delaying things in order to give us more time with the 3rd to make our own negotiations without them.

Quite the contrary, it's precisely because it's of no consequence that I don't see it being something worth making a fuss over.

We do very well out of the tech trade deal that we are proposing. We get a very expensive technology without having to pause and build a wonder to get it. Letting their workboat through is not bending over backwards, it's only a very minor concession we are giving that they could just do anyway if they wanted. They are bending over more than we are by offering us such an expensive tech so much cheaper than it's worth.

I 100 % stand behind you here Kaleb.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Well, how many oppose the phoney war, that is what we need to know: Donsig, possibly also Cavscout and Sommerswerd opposes it.

What?!? Provo you need to review the last few posts on this thread. I think you may have gone from being mad every time I disagree with you, to always assuming I disagree...

I have been staunchly supporting you on this treaty, including the Phoney war issue. Cavscout has also said that the phoney war is OK.

Donsig is the primary person that is against the phoney war and we are currently trying to convince him so that we can get consensus. Donsig's hapiness is important to me, and it should be important to you.

Provo, this post is an indication that you are not listening... you are just waiting (or not waiting) to talk. Obviously I am not your mother, so "bring your cannons on deck" if you feel I am way off base.

I think we need a poll on the phoney war.

I am totally against polling this issue, especially when we are so close to having actual consensus. It is so important to have a consensus here and all a poll does is steamroll the majority's will.

I don't like the "minute advantage" clause, it gives them the ability to complain about anything we do that they don't agree with.

True, but who cares about their complaints. We are not bound, that's what I like about it. It is so vague that it really has no teeth as far as compliance is concerned. Also, as Provo pointed out, it is probably just a clause to say that we share techs as discovered, without too much quibbling over "who owes who beakers." As I said this seems fine... until we get Feudalism.

It seems we are already having a culture for complaining both ways ... I agree with those players that oppose giving away our financial lead to them, sponsoring their research.

There is no "culture for complaining" IMO. What is holding this deal up primarily IMO is that we ALL have tremendous respect for Donsig's opinion...

With such a major move we want consensus not just a simple majority. This treaty is a BIG deal. Much bigger than where we settle next city, or what tech we want next... If Donsig is not on board, it undermines everything... I would really like consensus on this treaty, not a paltry majority.

We are in a hurry to do this deal to give Cav the best shot at building Oracle 1st.

I don't think we need point 6 as by this stage we could have a 3rd party who could research that for us.

I agree with this Kaleb Khan

 

[Provolution]

Ok sommerswerd, I am sorry for misunderstanding your sentiment on the phoney war. It seems we are mostly all on board. I will be honest to tell that without the phoney war, and without making a more fair tit-for-tat trade sequence that addresses the barb threat, the added costs by early oracle,need for smooth diplomacy and finally the need for close collaboration to get early feudalism, there will be no deal.

Also, I do not feel respected for wanting the phoney war, having been named as "bending over backwards like some English tart" and so on. Respect goes both ways, even if I am part of the majority vote here, I could use some respect as well, but I am getting used to less of it.

So, I respect Donsigs opinion for open borders. Normally I would go with it too, but I rather take my chances with getting early Feudalism for a small price. If that requires a poll to save this deal, I will go for it.

So, Sommerswerd, we are now in sync, apologize for any misgivings from my side, and I will closely read your posts. I am just in a state of getting this deal done, and get on with the game.

Also, we got the scope to do some quick unilateral deals ahead of trading Alphabet, when we got Alphabet ourselves, if we question their commitment to stick to the deal.

 

[Kaleb]

I agree on NOT polling

Very bad idea, they need Writing as a prereq for Feudalism, so please do not get difficult now, when we are so close. We may risk killing the deal.

I know they need writing for Feud! But we only need to give it to them on the turn they build Oracle

 

[Provolution]

Well, if we do not poll any disagreement, and we do not reach a decision, it will simply be no deal, as far as I see it. But that is a sort of decision too.

How do you intend to solve the phoney war vs. open border issue, let it pass 6 more turns?

About writing, it is also a prereq to Alphabet, which we was to trade for Monarchy...

Well, since you are king, I let you deal with Niklas, I give up on this.

 

[Kaleb]

Don't you start with this King thing too!

Other than donsig, is anyone else against the 'phoney' war? What is the argument against?

This whole 'bending over backwards' and 'we need to stand up to them' line just doesn't wash with me. We have negotiated well (with acknowledgements to Provo for his role) and the treaty as it is represents a better deal for us than for team cav. We end up with the same techs as them without having to build Oracle.

Other teams will be sick when they see what we've colluded to do.

The deal is not going to fall apart just because we don't have 100% support. That is no way to progress in this game.

 

[Provolution]

We are on the same page Kaleb, and you are very good to the team in many ways. But we need a decision, not more Polish Parliamentarism I call thy as a king to settle this impasse, and use your Briton ancestry for some good for once.

 

[Kaleb]

I have modified the orignal proposal from Team Cav and marked any changes in Bold.

Can people please see the original post for the latest version.

It's also here as a spoiler:

Spoiler :

§1. Peace and Non-Aggression

* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to take no hostile
action of any kind towards the other people.
* This state of peace and non-aggression will last indefinitely, and
can only be cancelled by written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the state of assured peace can not be given
before the year 1 AD (turn 115).


§2. Open Borders
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to open borders with
each other, to allow the free passage of units and merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately, on both
sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* Upon the completion of Writing by either people, this will be
handled via a formal Open Borders agreement. Until that time, it will
be handled through a phony state of war.


§3. Mutual Technological Advancement
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to cooperate on the
advancement of knowledge to achieve the following trade as soon as possible:
- Team Kazakhstan to give Hunting, Animal Husbandry, Writing, Alphabet
- Team Cavaleiros to give Meditation, Preisthood, Monarchy, Feudalism*
- *If team Cav fail to acieve the Oracle first they will need to offer another tech for Alphabet instead of Feudalism.
* Both peoples agree to adhere to follow the agreed advancement plan as
close as possible:
- Team Kazakhstan to tech Writing > Alphabet
- Team Cavaleiros to tech Priesthood > Monarchy > Feudalism (through Oracle)
* Both peoples agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable
speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to
deal with adverse events.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan may be given in a state of
emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If either people wishes to invoke such an exception, it must notify
the other people of its intent and reasons for the deviation.
* Upon completion of the respective beelines, the related technologies
will be immediately traded one tech per turn until the full trade is complete.
* Both peoples agree that mutual technological advancement will
continue beyond the completion of the immediate goals, but that plans
for the future are to be negotiated at later points, as addendums to
this treaty.
* Both peoples agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in
such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own
team.


§4. Resources
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree that in the case that
either team has a spare resource to trade, they will first try to
negotiate a trade with the other people of this treaty. Only if no
such deal is possible will the people consider trading that resource
to a third people.


§5. Religion and Oracle
* The people of the Cavaleiros recognize the wishes and needs of the
people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan
have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion,
after the completion of the inital advancement plan.
* The people of Kazakhstan agree not to build the Oracle and the people of Cavaleiros agree to build it with all due haste.


§6. Extension
* Both peoples agree that the intent is to find and include a third
civilized people with which to share technological advancement, and
agree to work actively towards finding such a people.
* The exact terms of the cooperation with this third people will be
negotiated when relevant, and the contents of this documents are not
to be seen as binding in any way towards this third people.

I am happy with this, it's a very good deal and doesn't tie us down too much. Can we send this ASAP to Team Cav people?

 

[Provolution]

I still disagree with the terms of transaction here, how we are to deliver these goods. You also need to factor in prereqs, and how much they sacrifice in terms of hammers for this deal. They asked for a compensation of 150 beakers beyond the techs that were on the table,
and it is still a good deal.

I chatted with Niklas, and he stated we would give the wrong signal if we were stingy with transferring techs to them ahead of Barbs. This deal is not only about tit-for-tat, but also about building a stable foundation. I feel the above proposal seems very reserved, from our perspective, and not a conduit for the strategic relationship we need.

This is the proposal I know will fly with Niklas, after having gone through it with him. We need at least one sponsor on the other side to sell it.

Spoiler :

Proposal: The CavKaz Treaty

§1. Peace and Non-Aggression

* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to take no hostile
action of any kind towards the other people.
* This state of peace and non-aggression will last indefinitely, and
can only be cancelled by written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the state of assured peace can not be given
before the year 1 AD (turn 115).


§2. Open Borders
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to open borders with
each other, to allow the free passage of units and merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately (turn 49), on both
sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* Upon the completion of Writing by either people, this will be
handled via a formal Open Borders agreement. Until that time, it will
be handled through a phony state of war, starting by the signature of this treaty, with the provision that sailing over the clam is not permissible and the boat should sail around it.


§3. Mutual Technological Advancement
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to cooperate on the
advancement of knowledge to get to Alphabet and Monarchy as soon as
possible (before turn 70).
* Both peoples agree to adhere to the attached advancement plan as
close as possible.
* Both peoples agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable
speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to
deal with adverse events.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan may be given in a state of
emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If either people wishes to invoke such an exception, it must notify
the other people of its intent and reasons for the deviation.
* Upon completion of the respective beelines, the related technologies
will be immediately traded to the other people.
* Both peoples agree that mutual technological advancement will
continue beyond the completion of the immediate goals, but that plans
for the future are to be negotiated at later points, as addendums to
this treaty.
* Both peoples agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in
such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own
team.

T66 Writing, Animal Husbandry and Hunting for Meditation
T67 Priesthood gifted to Kazakhstan
T68 Alphabet for Monarchy
T69: - Oracle completed, Feudalism transferred to us. by turn 69

§4. Resources
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree that in the case that
either team has a spare resource to trade, they will first try to
negotiate a trade with the other people of this treaty. Only if no
such deal is possible will the people consider trading that resource
to a third people.


§5. Religion and Oracle
* The people of the Cavaleiros recognize the wishes and needs of the
people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan
have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion,
after the completion of the initial advancement plan (Code of Law/Philosophy).
* Both peoples recognize that Cavaleiros builds the Oracle, then the free technology received (Feudalism) will be
shared with Kazakhstan, against a reasonable compensation equivalent of 150 beakers) for
the investment of hammers (presumably a smaller research load during
that period). Feudalism will then be transferred immediately once researched.



§6. Extension
* Both peoples agree that the intent is to find and include a third
civilized people with which to share technological advancement, and
agree to work actively towards finding such a people.
* The exact terms of the cooperation with this third people will be
negotiated when relevant, and the contents of this documents are not
to be seen as binding in any way towards this third people.

 

[Kaleb]

Niklas hasn't mentioned anything about 150 beakers to me, and if it ain't in the treaty, then it ain't in the deal. What do you mean about factoring in hammers and prereqs? I sent Niklas a message saying "the deal is we give you Hunting, AH, Writing and Alpha and you give us Med, PH, Monarchy and Feudalism, right?" and he's agreed to this.

If they disagree then they'll just have to send the treaty back and wait another turn

I can spell out exactly the trade offs, but I don't think this is needed really. If we need to then we can just say

"As soon as Alphabet is discovered the following trade sequence will take place:
Turn 1: Animal Husbandry for Meditation
Turn 2: Writing for Priesthood
Turn 3: Hunting for Monarchy
Turn 4 or as soon as Oracle is complete: Alphabet for Feudalism"

 

[Provolution]

Alphabet is a prereq for Feudalism, and we got successive turns, so we may need to organize it according to prereqs. I am also against a non-synergistic method for transfer, as it signals an extreme degree of reservation and caution.

The 150 beaker equivalent requires this sequence:

T66 Writing, Animal Husbandry and Hunting for Meditation
T67 Priesthood gifted to Kazakhstan
T68 Alphabet for Monarchy
T69: - Oracle completed, Feudalism transferred to us. by turn 69

 

[Kaleb]

Alphabet is not a pre-req for Feudalism. Writing is.

I've asked Niklas for an estimate on Feudalism and he said around turn 67 but it depends on how quick they can tech Monarchy

In your proposal, what happens if they don't get Feudalism?

And I don't think we need to spell out exactly how we transfer techs. The way the trade will work is that when we get Alpha, we propose a deal to them, and when they accept it, the trade occurs.

I still don't understand what you mean by this "150 beaker equivalent". You keep mentioning it but I don't know what you mean by it?

I have already passed my suggested tech deal past Niklas and he has said ok, so what is it you are objecting to???

 

[Provolution]

If he is fine with it, its ok. He just presented another sequence in the talks, on what the others would accept. If they go along with this, I am fine with it.

EDIT: Niklas told on MSN you had sent no proposal or no mail. What is going on Kaleb. One thing was the turnplay mishap, but this should be handled regardless. Niklas did not agree to your sequence either, so you got no effective sponsor on their side, as we speak. This proposal is not ready to be sent out.

 

[cav scout]

I support the treaty as proposed by Kaleb.

 

[Provolution]

Well, send it out, and sign it from Kaleb and Cavscout, it may fly, but I doubt it.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I support the treaty as proposed by Kaleb Khan

Provo's language is not really that objectionable to me either. Either way, we need to get the treaty approved and sent quickly.

Donsig... do we have your blessing yet for this treaty, or is the phoney war a "line-in-the-sand" issue for you? Do you give Cavalieros any credit for their agreement to wait at the border for a treaty to be signed?

If they are dishonest, better to find out now then later. If they take our three techs for meditation then stop returning our calls, they can be the first recipients of a chariot rush IMO.

Also, Provo, I think that you have dished out enough "heat" for the capital slaving, don't you? I share your sense of irony since everyone has been riding you for past mistakes/decisions, but I seem to remember you recently asking for more respect from the team. I would highly respect you for letting this go. He said it was a mistake...

In order to recieve respect, you must also be willing to give it. I think Kaleb has been one of the most willing to forgive when it comes to things that you goofed on. If I am wrong I readily accept a cannon barrage.