The Cold War Deluxe; 1950-1991

[Adler17]

January 1950:
I am Konrad Adenauer, West German chancellor since 20.9.1949. The situation: Germany lost ww2 and is occupied. The areas east of the Oder river are given to Poland and the Soviet union, middle Germany is just constructed as the so called German Democratic Republic, but for us it will ever be only the Soviet Occupation zone (Sowjetische Besatzungszone SBZ; indeed West Germany never recognized this state until 1990). So in the heart of Germany Bolshevistic troops are stationed. And only because the trouble in Korea and the so called Kasernierte Volkspolizei (barracked peoples police) I am allowed to build up forces. France delivered some Panther tanks as the US gave the Prinz Eugen back. Luckily the engine broke down on the way to the Bikini atoll. General Gehlen sais, he does not knows why but I have doubts...
Nevertheless I have little units and a huge enemy at the doorsteps. Much to do now. But perhaps reunification is not a dream...

Adler

 

[Adler17]

Adler,

you know, there are other GWs out there that you can use to autopro' the units you may want the AI to build.

I know, but I want to test it at first with only one. I fear in the Pacific the Soviets could rule the waves if they get a sub every turn.
However I strongly recommend to build autoproducing naval wonders in the next version.

Adler

 

[I_batman]

howdy pcasey.

a late last era tech (can't recall exactly which 1) unlocks the ability to build the spaceship parts. i do recall that only one city (by a wonder) can build them though and we boosted the costs for them a bunch for v1.5

I aslo had problems when testing this. I will have to dig through my past notes to see how I got this to work.
Basically, there is an series of improvements that have to be built (which I can't remember right now), and once the final improvement is built in a city, that city is designated as the only city capable of building space parts.

pcasey, I did not do a lot of testing with the US, but I believe that Washington should be able to build space parts, once all the improvements are built in Washington.

I will try to track down the series you need to build.

 

[El Justo]

I know, but I want to test it at first with only one. I fear in the Pacific the Soviets could rule the waves if they get a sub every turn.
However I strongly recommend to build autoproducing naval wonders in the next version.

Adler

no need to make it pop one every turn. that's a little much imho.

as for adding in new autopro' wonders for the soviets for future versions...it can't be done b/c of the cap we've seemed to reach on the total number of improvements/wonders.

it's funny, though, as i've been told that the max number of improvements/wonders is much higher than what is actually in TCW yest when i've tried to add more in, the game has crashed (as had happened w/ Adler).

however, as usual, if anyone can figure out a way to add more wonders/improvements into the biq w/out the game crashing then i'm all ears.

 

[Adler17]

Then I would propose to delete an existing wonder an resp. redesign it. However I am in January 1954. Nothing happened until now except I just developed M 48 tanks. Finally I can build up offensive forces.

Adler

 

[El Justo]

Then I would propose to delete an existing wonder an resp. redesign it. However I am in January 1954. Nothing happened until now except I just developed M 48 tanks. Finally I can build up offensive forces.

Adler

that's (jan '54) about exactly where we pegged for the WG to be able to build on offense.

we will look at the soviet naval builds again and make a decision based on the evidence we can find.

i do not want to delete or re-name any existing wonders if i can 'atall help it. i already scaled it back some just to put in the new ones for v1.5

 

[I_batman]

Then I would propose to delete an existing wonder an resp. redesign it. However I am in January 1954. Nothing happened until now except I just developed M 48 tanks. Finally I can build up offensive forces.

Adler

Consider Adler, Germany's war machine was essentially obliterated by 1945. And a good chunk of the remaining infrastructure (entire factories) was dismantled by the Russian's and taken back to the Motherland. And what about the massive loss of manpower?
Even with the Marshall Plan, and all the help from the West, Germany can be no regional power in 1950, let alone a power capable of waging war with the Soviets.
I would suggest you are skewing the game way too much giving WG all these ships and wonders to produce more units.

Keep in mind, WG is one of only 30 civ's in the game, and El Justo tried to give every civ some recognition with special units and wonders. With the limit on wonders, by giving WG and the WP more, you are taking away from the other civ's.

Plus, if you go through the current list of wonders in the game, all are historically significant or strategically important to infrastructure building

 

[psweetman1590]

As promised, Here is my report on the USA, Demigod (I think). v1.5

To start with, I disbanded all those nukes in DC to help pay for a factory. I hate nuclear war, so I'm just getting 75 free shiels every time I get a new mid-range missle.

I checked a good deal of the civ-pedia too, mainly to get familiar with the units, tech tree and re-named improvements. I spent about two hours just reading history off the pedia. I love your personal notes in there too, El Justo.

I shipped 4 shermans out to Korea in preparation for a war I thought would come. As it happened, that war hasn't yet come, those shermans are there yet, and by the time the war DOES get there, the shermans will be too out-of-date to do anything!

In Apr 1950, the WP declared war on China, starting the first hot war of the game. They immediatly took the city of Harbin, and November, took Shenyang, and also ran over a British sub, touching off WWIII.

My small force in Europe did well, defending Germany, and even managing to capture the Soviet airbase near Dresden in Jan of 1951 (I needed it, becaus the French cultural expansion took away my other airbase). However, this goal was met for only 1 turn, for the French proceeded to take Dresden. I suppose the Sovs were too busy in China to bother with Europe.

Considering the war in Europe to be well-in-hand (France taking Dresden seems a very auspicious start ), I turned my sights to Cuba. In March I landed 4 shermans there; in April, I pulled 2 out, invasion complete....a disaster at that. Upon landing, they were beset by hoards of cuban infantry, and though they suffered higher casualties than I, my two red-lined shermans were in no way sufficient to capture the island (well, duh!). I decided to wait for the development of the airforce, and by that time, the war would be over. In August, Britain signed peace with the USSR. WWIII had lasted ten months.

In December of that year, I completed the B52 plant (Is this a bug? I have the B52 plant up and running, but the B32 plant keeps spitting out Peacemakers. I thought the B52 plant cancelled out the B32 plant?). How nice those planes are.... How beautiful....

Nothing else much happens until May of '52, when Mao demands 100 gold from me. I figure that war with China wouldn't hurt, to say the least, so I decline. Mao backs down, to my disappointment.

In September, Athens build the Rock 'n' Roll thingie...Elvis was Greek?! I didn't know that!

In March of '54, Scandinavia declares war on China, and comences to send individual M4 Shermans across the SU to get there....stupid AI. I was afraid for a while that this could start off a huge war, but since Scandinavia was doing all the attacking, nothing came of it.

the I Armored Corps is formed in August of that year. I promptly filled it with Pershings, and waited for war with the WP so I could invade Cuba again.

Then, in October, the WP declared war on China yet again, and using U2 spy planes I quickly found their invasion force. They were headed over the Gobi desert, straight to Peking ( I had completely wrecked their communications systems last war from the Japanese airbases, and I guess they hadn't rebuilt them yet, and that was why they headed out over open terrain). The offensive comprised of 16 IS3s. A scary force for China to face. As it was, the WP military force was larger than mine, and I certainly didn't want the WP to have control of China; the amount of war materiel they might produce from it would make my situation worse than it was already. So I pre-empted the situation and declared war on the WP. Almost all my forces were near Miami ready to Invade Cuba, but my single B52 could be spared, and I used it to great effect (or to as great an effect as one can get from a single bomber squadron) to delay the Soviet advance. But alas, it was not enough. It slowed them, but they eventually did capture Beijing in Feb of '55.

Meanwhile in Cuba, my forces set sail immediately. The first and second Rangers battalions paradroped onto the island, while four other Pershing tanks went by boat. The next turn, the city was captured by my four Marine divisions waiting off the coasts, and the I Armored Corps landed next to Cienfuegos (What does that mean? 100 what?). I ended up losing both of the Rangers, both of which died attacking a single APC with one hp left (neither did any damage.) May I suggest that you make the rangers (and their foreign counter-parts of course) a bit stronger? perhaps a -1 hp penalty instead of -2? Sure, they have great mobility, but they can't kill a thing! Whats the point of moving anywhere, quickly, when once you get there, you die anyways? Just a thought.

In any case, the conquest of the rest of Cuba (I captured Havana in April) prceeded smoothly (those Iowas are SWEET! ), and soon I was able to deploy my considerable fleet of Peacemakers to Japan to help the B52 hold the Russians at bay. It worked. Although the Russians had by now taken Jinan (Mar, '55), their advance was stopped in its tracks. Somehow, when I wasn't noticing, the Arabs had taken Guiyang, though. Most of China now consists of the Himalayas and the Gobi cities. They only have two or three cities left on the coastal plains. The war continued indeterminably for a while, then in October, the Chinese sign peace. Seeing this, I get peace also (having admirably accomplished my first objective, and narrowly accomplished the second) and started planning my next conquest. It would have to be neutral. And it should give me some strategic advantage... I spy North Africa! A perfect place to deploy the Peacekeepers from if I get booted from my new airfield in Europe, and a good springboard from which I might conquer the rest of Africa. I move my carriers, re-base to peacekeepers to San Juan, load the transports with my Corps and Marines, and Away I go! I declare war in November '55, and North Africa is mine by May of '56.

In other parts of the World, India and China had become locked in war, but since those damn imposing Himalayas are between them, nothing much happens. China manages to take one of their cities, but they soon lost it....

This situation becomes more volatile after the WP dclares war on India in Mar of '56. Again, I didn't want the commies to have any more industrial power than they already had, so I sent massive aid (in the form of 10,000 gold) to India. It worked. The city of Ahmabadad changed hands several times (to the tune of Soviet, Indian, Arab, Indian, Arab, Indian....), but India (at the moment) still controls all of her native lands. In fact, after a few months, India signed peace with the WP, and used the funds I gifted them to fight China. They managed to capture Kunming! NOOO! But I recently checked with the Indian government, and they are out of funds once again, having spent it all. They will not end up taking China after all.

As for future plans, seeing the turmoil that keeps enveloping all of China, India and the surrounding lands, I have decided that taking North Vietnam would be conducive to world peace I have commenced buildup of forces, and soon my new oriskany class carriers will descend upon them and wipe them off the face of the earth...for the good of world peace, of course!

Very nice scenario, El Justo, I love it. Even though I do have the best hardware, without combined arms, even taking a pushover like North Africa would have been bloody. As it was, I only lost 2 marines and a Pershing when they counter-attacked me. Very nice balancing.

And those B52s Rock!

Continued:

In December of '57, SE Asia declares war on China, and NATO gets dragged in (see what I mean about taking Vietnam for World Peace?). I let the SEA battle it out, nothings happening there so there's no need to intervene.

Whats more important is that my attempt to plant a spy in Hanoi in March of '58 failed, and prompted N Vietnam to declare war on me. Just the opening I was looking for, but a bit soon. I hadn't built up my forces there yet. In any case, the I Armored Corps lands near Vinh two months later.

China and India finally settle their diferences, and peace is brought to the peaks of the himalayan mts.

Scnadinavia (somehow) manages to wrest Pyongyang from the Chinese.

Finally, in September, Vinh falls after a lengthy period of bombardment by every heavy bomber the US owns (and several jets from SE Asia as well). That same month Italy captures Taiyuan (go figure...idiot Europeans, if they kept their troops at home, I wouldn't have to keep sending more troops to Europe to beat the WP.

The War in Vietnam is faught to a standstill (there must be hundreds of those darned paramilitary police in those cities!) but in December, Central America has the good sense to get peace with China. Suddenly the Europeans stop ganging up on them. Finally, Hanoi is captured in April of '59. Also that month, the French land a force near Cao Bang. Something I've noticed in TCW, the AI is much better with transporting their troops than in normal civ. Lai Chau is captured in May, and Cao Bang is captured in June by the SE Asians, ending the Vietnam War. The US then proceeds to move to a new age of scientific ways to kill the enemy.

Arabia demands 100 gold, I refuse, he backs down. I suppose I should start reinforceing my North African holdings..... nah, he's got two cities in Africa, just how much force could he project on my cities there?

In October of the new decade, the WP declares war on China again. This is intolerable. I immediately declare war on the WP, setting off WWIV. hopefully the SU will be too busy in China to do too much to Europe, just like last war.

Naturally, this means I'm at war with Arabia too. My question of how much force they bring against me is immediately answered when they take Tripoli, Zarzis, and Algiers in the first turn of hostilities. The Soviets also manage to take Pyongyang from the Scandinavians.

All is not lost in N Africa though. In Nov. '60 the French land there, and next turn they take it. The Turks do the same thing at Zarzis. Apparently the Arabs had streched too far on the first turn...I just hope I can take Tripoli back before my "allies" can do so for me!

Most of the War is centered in China and Korea. I have two carriers there, and both airbases on Japan are loaded with Delta Deggers, Starfighters, and mosty Super Sabres. the attrition war against the Soviet airforce is going well. I've managed to shoot down five or Bears that tried to bomb my carrier group, though a few got through. Once the war is over, I'll have to bring the fleet back state-side for repairs.

There isn't much action in Europe, mostly just my fighter battling Russian fighrs, and my allies making suicide raids on Soviet cities (they have those new eight-wheeled APCs, those unsupported tank attacks from France and WG just ain't gonna do it anymore). As I thought, the Sovs have most of their forces in Asia, which is odd, because they haven't taken any Chinese cities there yet either.

My new goal is to take all of WP allied Africa. Those Arabs really pissed me off, so they're going first! The C Africans, however, have just sent a stack of some ten AMX 13 LTs and 20 or so infantry, so maybe I'd better stay defensive for a while. I've already sment most of my gold reserves rushing A6s.

I'll be back in a few days with more.

Those A6 Intruders look nasty...and they upgrade to the eagle! Mass produce them!!! I'm a few turns away from getting the Aardvarks as well. They look even meaner than the Invaders. This war is getting fun.

 

[Adler17]

Batman, I did in no way mean a German but a Soviet wonder producing that ammount.

Adler

 

[El Justo]

Continued:

In December of '57, SE Asia declares war on China, and NATO gets dragged in (see what I mean about taking Vietnam for World Peace?). I let the SEA battle it out, nothings happening there so there's no need to intervene.

Whats more important is that my attempt to plant a spy in Hanoi in March of '58 failed, and prompted N Vietnam to declare war on me. Just the opening I was looking for, but a bit soon. I hadn't built up my forces there yet. In any case, the I Armored Corps lands near Vinh two months later.

China and India finally settle their diferences, and peace is brought to the peaks of the himalayan mts.

Scnadinavia (somehow) manages to wrest Pyongyang from the Chinese.

Finally, in September, Vinh falls after a lengthy period of bombardment by every heavy bomber the US owns (and several jets from SE Asia as well). That same month Italy captures Taiyuan (go figure...idiot Europeans, if they kept their troops at home, I wouldn't have to keep sending more troops to Europe to beat the WP.

The War in Vietnam is faught to a standstill (there must be hundreds of those darned paramilitary police in those cities!) but in December, Central America has the good sense to get peace with China. Suddenly the Europeans stop ganging up on them. Finally, Hanoi is captured in April of '59. Also that month, the French land a force near Cao Bang. Something I've noticed in TCW, the AI is much better with transporting their troops than in normal civ. Lai Chau is captured in May, and Cao Bang is captured in June by the SE Asians, ending the Vietnam War. The US then proceeds to move to a new age of scientific ways to kill the enemy.

Arabia demands 100 gold, I refuse, he backs down. I suppose I should start reinforceing my North African holdings..... nah, he's got two cities in Africa, just how much force could he project on my cities there?

In October of the new decade, the WP declares war on China again. This is intolerable. I immediately declare war on the WP, setting off WWIV. hopefully the SU will be too busy in China to do too much to Europe, just like last war.

Naturally, this means I'm at war with Arabia too. My question of how much force they bring against me is immediately answered when they take Tripoli, Zarzis, and Algiers in the first turn of hostilities. The Soviets also manage to take Pyongyang from the Scandinavians.

All is not lost in N Africa though. In Nov. '60 the French land there, and next turn they take it. The Turks do the same thing at Zarzis. Apparently the Arabs had streched too far on the first turn...I just hope I can take Tripoli back before my "allies" can do so for me!

Most of the War is centered in China and Korea. I have two carriers there, and both airbases on Japan are loaded with Delta Deggers, Starfighters, and mosty Super Sabres. the attrition war against the Soviet airforce is going well. I've managed to shoot down five or Bears that tried to bomb my carrier group, though a few got through. Once the war is over, I'll have to bring the fleet back state-side for repairs.

There isn't much action in Europe, mostly just my fighter battling Russian fighrs, and my allies making suicide raids on Soviet cities (they have those new eight-wheeled APCs, those unsupported tank attacks from France and WG just ain't gonna do it anymore). As I thought, the Sovs have most of their forces in Asia, which is odd, because they haven't taken any Chinese cities there yet either.

My new goal is to take all of WP allied Africa. Those Arabs really pissed me off, so they're going first! The C Africans, however, have just sent a stack of some ten AMX 13 LTs and 20 or so infantry, so maybe I'd better stay defensive for a while. I've already sment most of my gold reserves rushing A6s.

I'll be back in a few days with more.

Those A6 Intruders look nasty...and they upgrade to the eagle! Mass produce them!!! I'm a few turns away from getting the Aardvarks as well. They look even meaner than the Invaders. This war is getting fun.

psweetman1590,

another great report!

Scandinavia getting p'yongyang is surprising to say the least. did they treck across the continent or did they send oceanic transports?

yes, for some reason or another, i have also noticed that the AI is more inclined to conduct more amphibious landings than in regular civ3. i don't know why but it's certainly a good thing.

you'll do well w/ all of those fancy air crafts.

the aardvarks are straight nasty. wait'll you see how high that bombard no. is!

we look forward to more reports!

 

[I_batman]

Continued:

Hi psweetman, you were asking about the special forces units and their strength a couple posts ago. Not sure you got an answer already, but yeah, they are pretty weak. But they do have a couple advantages which make them useful.
1. They treat all terrain as grassland, so they can move through forests, hills and mountains without impedence.
2. They can see an extra tile like spies and armies.

Both these things make them great for recon and messing up roads and rail lines.
Granted, they have a really high mortality rate after that, but they are a thing of beauty in mountains, as long as they don't get bombed to death.
I also use them against really low end defensive units like artillery and paramilitary units, instead of wasting a heavy armour movement.

 

[Adler17]

Gameplay report:
February 1954:
WP declares war on China. Stalin might want to start ww3.

July 1954:
A horrible moment in history. Stalin declared war on Russia. ww3 has started. Will I have enough troops to defend? I think so, since at least many Russian units are in China, I will try a small offensive next turn. The Russian Baltic Fleet broke out of the Baltic sea. I will have to catch them

August 1954:
WW3 OoB of my fleet:

CVL Karel Doormann
CA Prinz Eugen
DD Z 1- Z 8 (Fletcher class)
DE Raule, Brommy, Scheer, Hipper, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau
SS Wilhelm Bauer, Hai, Hecht, U 1- U 5
1 Transport

The hostilities begun: In a surprise attack, my artillery bombed Dresden. Then I saw that there were not so many units defending that I expected. I had 9 tanks for the offensive, including 6 M 48, which were now at the first line. The Soviets are not able to withstand. Dresden is mine!
Now I dared an attack on Berlin: I used my remaining tanks, but I was successful: While the Panther and M 48 took out the heavy defenders, the last two guns defending were no problem for my M 113. Berlin is mine, Germany is reunited, the guys of Pankow were last seen in an exploding train trying to reach Soviet held territory!
Off Scapa 2 Soviet DDs are sunk by Z 1 and Prinz Eugen. The first was heavilied damaged, while the latter was not hit.
The now enclosed units should have been no problem but they turned out to be one. I lost 3 infantry units to them.
The next measures are securing the reconquered area.
A Soviet tank is breaking through the lines killing an infantry unit of mine. 3 others are destroyed in the attempt to reconquer Berlin, what failed dramatically.

Adler

 

[I_batman]

Batman, I did in no way mean a German but a Soviet wonder producing that ammount.

Adler

Sorry Adler, I misread your statments about the sub auto-producing wonder for WP. But my comments still stand regarding the quantity of units WG starts with and how it is difficult to remove any wonders and add more without skewing the game.

 

[Adler17]

The units I added did not break the stability of the game. However I fear it was not such a good idea to let the Soviets build so much subs. However I think it will be an interesting fight to get them sunk... Also I was trying how to implement such a wonder since this wonder is helping the Soviet AI in naval combat dramatically. Perhaps it will aslo help my allies naval AI.

Adler

 

[vingrjoe]

Well, I'm very pissed off. I got to 1979, playing as the WP on demigod with max aggression. The first two decades were tough, but now I finally got the Western European countries worn down. I've got quite a navy built, a good fighter umbrella and now have started cranking out mobile 122mm Arty and scud batteries. I'm grinding away and taking and/or razing cities depending upon their strategic value, when my spineless ally, the Arabs, sue for peace. I think fine, it'll give me time to work up the land around my newly acquired cities and build up the military. I end my turn and the AI goes thru it's turns. I wait, and wait and wait. Finally, I restart the turn, same thing. So, I leave the game overnight thinking it may just be a helluva long turn for the AI. I come in this morning and the computer is still hanging with the nice little hourglass. I restart where I left off and declare war right after peace is signed, I try a few different courses of action to try to remedy the problem. No luck. I don't know what's going on.

This makes me so mad. So it's one of two possibilities:

1. My computer is not powerful enough to run the game when it gets so far.
My comp specs: AMD AthlonXP 3000 processor, BFG 256mb GeForce
FX 5900 Ultra, 1.5 Gig pc2700 DDR, 30 gb 7200 rpm HD, 70gb 7200 rpm HD. I have seperate partition for swap space, 2250 mb. It's a few years old, but I haven't had problems with any other power hungry games.

2. The Civ3 game programming is inadequate to deal with large games. This may be due to budget restrictions during development and/or the prgrammers may have been apathetic or even underachievers.

I'm going to try to open up the savegame, and see if I can find a possible bottleneck in the ground traffic.

 

[bkwrm79]

bkwrm79,

that's strange. you were able to at least get an older save game to load?

i'd be happy to help you get that iowa into your personal game if you want. it's not too hard. send a pm and i'll explain.

i attach a screenie here from my TCW1.5 game that shows that the AI soviets are actually loading and deploying their 'Corps' units in a smart fashion!

No, haven't been able to rescue the game. Maybe Vingrjoe will figure out more about the problem. Anyway, I really should play the Americans at a higher difficulty level.

PM sent, and thanks!

A Soviet Corps in Japan is a scary thought, but good to see! I've seen the Iranians send a Corps towards Baku (and later retreat it; they didn't take the city but clearly it did some hard fighting).

 

[vingrjoe]

I'm trying to use Civ3Multitool to export the savegame to a biq, but get all these errors. I would like to be able to see what's going on in this map. I might just give up, unless someone can point me to better savegame editor.

 

[I_batman]

This makes me so mad. So it's one of two possibilities:

1. My computer is not powerful enough to run the game when it gets so far.
My comp specs: AMD AthlonXP 3000 processor, BFG 256mb GeForce
FX 5900 Ultra, 1.5 Gig pc2700 DDR, 30 gb 7200 rpm HD, 70gb 7200 rpm HD. I have seperate partition for swap space, 2250 mb. It's a few years old, but I haven't had problems with any other power hungry games.

2. The Civ3 game programming is inadequate to deal with large games. This may be due to budget restrictions during development and/or the prgrammers may have been apathetic or even underachievers.

I'm going to try to open up the savegame, and see if I can find a possible bottleneck in the ground traffic.

Hi VingrJoe, I dunno what can be the problem. I don't think it is either thing.
You have a much more powerful machine than I do, so I doubt that is it.

Also, I am still running on the huge map, which is about 8 times as big, and has probably 60% more cities, and right now has about 3500 units in it. Can you go back to your last working saved turn and do some espionage to get an estimate of how many units are in the game?

 

[El Justo]

I fear it was not such a good idea to let the Soviets build so much subs. However I think it will be an interesting fight to get them sunk... Also I was trying how to implement such a wonder since this wonder is helping the Soviet AI in naval combat dramatically. Perhaps it will aslo help my allies naval AI.

Adler

let us know how this progresses Adler.

 

[El Justo]

No, haven't been able to rescue the game. Maybe Vingrjoe will figure out more about the problem. Anyway, I really should play the Americans at a higher difficulty level.

PM sent, and thanks!

A Soviet Corps in Japan is a scary thought, but good to see! I've seen the Iranians send a Corps towards Baku (and later retreat it; they didn't take the city but clearly it did some hard fighting).

hmm...this ain't good. i myself haven't had such a lock-up but i've seen them in the past.

pm rec'd and replied to!