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The Cold War Deluxe; 1950-1991

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by El Justo, Dec 25, 2004.

  1. Adler17

    Adler17 Prussian Feldmarschall

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    A remark on the huge map: Hamburs is a harbour city. Also Bremen would renamed better as Hannover.
    Also I think all of the player should decide which version to play.

    Adler
     
  2. I_batman

    I_batman Emperor

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    There will end up being 5 versions.
    There will 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's versions, all 120 turns long.
    There will also be an "epic" version, that you can start in 1950 and run till 1989.

    Player can chose what they want to play.
     
  3. Aardvark Fury

    Aardvark Fury Chieftain

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    El Justo,

    Great job! Have been playing as Aus/NZ and think it is the most historically accurate mod yet. I've got a few helpful comments which could help make it even more accurate:

    - Australia should be able to produce the F-86 Sabre. Australia produced its own 'Avon Sabre' from 1953 onwards. It replaced the Meteor in Australian service (unlike the British Lightning F6 in your mod). In turn, the Avon Sabre was replaced by the Mirage IIIO from 1963 onwards. I haven't got to the point where the Mirage III is unlocked but Australia should be able to produce it too.

    - Australia should be able to produce the Charles F. Adams class of destroyer. Australia introduced the Charles F. Adams as the Perth Class (3 ships) from 1965 onwards.

    - Indonesia should be removed from the locked Western alliance and made a "non-aligned" country along the lines of Cuba, Central Africa etc. During the 60's and 70's Indonesia was responsible for the 'Konfrontasi' with Malaya, the take over of West Papua (1969) and the invasion of East Timor (1975). It also received primarily Soviet equipment during this time. These actions, whilst not resulting in outright war did lead to campaigns against Indonesia being waged by the Commonwealth and resistance from its neighbours.

    You are spot on with the County Class crusier at the start of the game, the Colossus class carrier (HMAS Melbourne or Sydney) - although it should have Sea Furies instead of the Spitfire at the start of the mod (Australia operated Sea Furies off its carriers during Kora), but now I'm being pedantic - and the Centurion tanks. You have obviously done some painstaking research!

    Hopefully the changes suggested above being added to future versions of TCW will result in an even more accurate and enjoyable mod. Hope you find them helpful!
     
  4. Adler17

    Adler17 Prussian Feldmarschall

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    January 1954:
    General report: Iran captured Baku. Good news. Akita is fallen to the Commies! Bad news. The British Royal Navy controls the waves of the Baltic. My fleet is in Copenhagen repairing and wating for further action.
    I am bombing the air field. Then my Infantry resp. mech infantry have an easy game. Also U 1 has such by sinking the Soviet sub. No enemy sub is reported. U 1 third unit sunk!

    February:
    Preparing to storm Berlin. During a snowy morning in February 1954 the west German artillery fires on the old German capital damaging the defenders. Then a combined attack from Panther tanks and infantry reconquers the city after a togh house to house fight. 2 infantry units were died a hero´s death by the liberation. Germany is reunited!
    Z 7 is now ready for actions.
    3 Russian troops are killed by the Berlin defenders. However a Russian IS 3 kills a Dresden defender.

    March:
    U 4 is ready. The IS 3 is killed by a M 3 after being bombarded by artillery.
    2 Russian soldiers attacking Berlin are killed. A Russian bomber is intercepted by my newly formed air force.
    Central Africa and Greece make peace!

    I will only now report big news.

    August: A Soviet spy is cought trying to steal a technology.

    September: Good news: I can produce M 48!

    I stop here.

    Adler
     
  5. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    Haha I didnt mean another picture! I wanna play this beast! Dont you think its release ready? ;p
     
  6. I_batman

    I_batman Emperor

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    I would suggest getting familiar with 1.5 "regular map" first. There is a LOT to learn about that game, particularly further up the tech tree.

    El Justo makes the call on release dates, and I know he has been already tweaking ranges on units for the huge game, plus some terrain issues, as well as VP winning conditions, plus some other things, but I imagine it won't be long for the "epic" version to come out.

    The "decades" versions might take a while longer because of decisions having to be made on what techs to give each civ, quantities of units, and pre-placed improvements/wonders. This has to be done on a city by city basis, and done for each of the 4 decades versions, so that is a LOT of work.

    But it will be worth it.
     
  7. pcasey

    pcasey Chieftain

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    This is a great scenario; I can't wait for the huge version, although I tremble at the though of just how long its going to take for each turn :). Having played through a couple of games now as the Pact and one as the US, I thought I'd share a few observations (in no particular order).

    1) The balance feels "off" to me right now in that the PACT starts off very weak compared to NATO. In 1950 I'd expect the PACT to have a significant conventional superiority, but really they can burn their whole army out on turn one and not take a single WG city. Which makes sort of "gamey" strategies seem like the way to go e.g. go defensive in europe and invade China in 1950 (or Persia, also an easy nut to crack once you clear out the border fort).

    2) City defences are so crazy-powerful that there's really no way to crack them without massive, massive artillery farms. I'm usually pushing around 20+ artillary tubes and 15 or so range 2 guns by the end of the game. Unlike air power, arty can't be shot down so it's not as volitile a resource e.g. you build a gun in 1950 and it'll still be around in 1965, unlike a Mig-15. Maybe tone down the city defense ratios *and* arty somewhat?

    3) Static air defenses e.g. city SAMs, flack, Gophers, don't seem to work at all. At least I've never, ever, seen them shoot something down. On the other hand CAP is deadly. Usually air battles are over in mutual annihilation by the second turn of the war. As the PACT though, I tried to go historical and build up large SAM forces with a smaller air force; to be blunt it doesn't work. Instead I have to build up a very large farm of fighters just to keep NATO from slagging my armies with air power. I don't mnd having to do *something*, but the historical approach (SAMs, SAMs, and more SAMs) ought to at least be a viable alternative to matching NATO 2:1 in airpower.

    4) The Lunar Landing great wonder doesn't seem to give 2 techs for free. As far as I can tell, it doesn't do anything actually.

    5) For some reason, even when I've developed the techs, I can't build any SS parts. The AI doesn't seem to have this problem, as I get messages that it's added things to its spaceship, but they never show up in my build menus.

    6) The auto-build routine likes to build polish infantry. Lots of polish infantry. Which is odd, because polish infantry costs more than a BMP-1 and has lower stats. Is there some way we could convince the AI to build better units instead of spamming polish infantry? It's incredibly tedious to have to stop every 5 turns and change 20 cities worth of production to something useful.

    7) Relative industrial outputs don't seem right. SE Asia is turning out units by the truckload, as are Brazil and Central Africa, none of which were exactly industrial powerhouses in this time period. Gutting their productivity would help balance out the oversize NATO in the game and might help keep the overall unit count down and hence speed up turns.

    8) Submarines all seem to have precision strike, which makes a mockery out of escorting transports across the ocean. Nomatter how big a stack there is protecting the transport, I can always pop in a sub and torp it. Kind of makes the whole naval side of the game pointless as it all comes down to submarines anyway so why build anything else?

    9) I'm not sure I'd call Indonesia a NATO nation in this time period. They were more of an India-style neutral who tried to play both sides off against one another.

    10) Building workers from wonders is a good idea, but could we tweak the worker production rate so that bigger nations (like the SU) get more workers/turn. As it stands tiny North Vietnam gets the same number of workers as the SU, which doesn't make much sense. It also means playing as the SU you pretty much have to kidnap workers all over the planet just to keep up with pollution, much less actually improve your tiles.

    Overall though, it's a great mod. I just hope 1.6 can get even better :).
     
  8. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    Adler,

    that's a nice report. i see that those Panthers came in handy, too :goodjob:
     
  9. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    hi Aardvark Fury.

    thanks for the nice words.

    we gave Australia/NZ the Gloster Meteor instead of the Sabre. this position also can build the Mirage III after the appropriate tech.

    the Adams DD could be added to their build que also.

    indonesia was lumped w/ nato simply by default though i agree one could make a case to leave them out altogether.

    i enjoyed finding the info on the RAN. i wanted to give them some sort of gun ship at the start and the County Class were a neat choice. those Centurions are beasts, too.

    welcome to the boards!
     
  10. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    howdy pcasey.


    thanks for the nice props. the Huge versions should be alot of fun for sure. however, you are right about the turn times; especially for the full epic version (1950-1991). to put it bluntly, i've seen the longest turn times i've ever seen in civ (well over an hour! :eek: ). the good news is that times up until about turn no. 150 or so are very respectable.

    now, at the same time, i do want to release it but w/ a defacto disclaimer about patience and a beef system.

    while we wanted to give the soviets an edge in initial edge in numbers, we also had to take into account that in 1950, the SU were rebuilding themselves and ole Uncle Joe wasn't too keen on starting ww3 so soon after his nation had lost millions.

    the boosted city defense stats are in place to encourage combined warfare tactics. you're correct in the 'arty vs bomber' assessment. this is why the arty pieces are so expensive.

    the AA stats do need to be recalculated. vingrjoe has mentioned that there is some particular formula for determining the RNG of the civ engine. we'll definitely look into this for any future versions.

    the Lunar Landing boosts science research. however, in past versions, it granted the 'gain the 2 best techs' bonus. the civilopedia wasn't updated to reflect this change.

    a late last era tech (can't recall exactly which 1) unlocks the ability to build the spaceship parts. i do recall that only one city (by a wonder) can build them though and we boosted the costs for them a bunch for v1.5

    all of the 2nd gen infantry units are allowed to be built. this includes the previously autopro'd ones. iirc, you can manage your build ques for each city w/ the governor screen.

    while they're not particularly industrial powerhouses, brazil, c africa, and se asia are 3 of the most heavily populated regions in the whole world. we spent alot of time managing the precise production levels for all civis w/ both terrain and resources as well as improvements. so i think we nailed it on this end.

    submarines are very powerful in TCW in that they are the only 'invisible' sea units and some can carry missiles. in no way does this make other naval units unnecessary. the DDs offer AA and great convoy capabilities, the carriers offer air cover and offensive bombing, the cruisers and BBs are an integral part of the combined warfare approach, and the amphibious assualt transports offer some variety for oceanic transport. the bottom line is that the civer absolutely must take some subs along for the ride or else...

    indonesia, as discussed before, was put into the nato alliance to try, as best as possible, to stay historically accurate. you can always chang it for your personal game if you wish.

    the worker autopro' ratio does vary some for the large and small civis. i guess this gives the WP another tactic to use.

    good remarks and welcome to cfc!
     
  11. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    Playing as France again! I have Paris fine tuned into a production powerhouse! its making about 170 SPT and I havent even built the Natl Airline there yet. Needless to say, with a pop of 66 (22,140,000 and still growing strong... its the city of loooove ;p) I have nabbed just about every wonder due to my ability (as a human) to utilize Civil Engineers!

    All those multipliers start to really add up! Its 1954 and the Soviets have taken no cities... well, technically they DID take Bonn, but I snagged it with glee immediately after! w00t! It added several productive tiles to mighty mighty Paris, and gave me a new front line city (because I consider WG to be a pathetic Soviet stopper). However, the commies were able to occupy most of the VPs in WG and all of the strategic locations, so their no city streak is bound to end soon... but if they do some serious nuking will begin mwahahaha!

    I was wondering why France does not have an airbase in SE Asia, with a small force there. Considering the Indochina War was the cause of the Vietnam War you would think there would be a few of my people down there to cause some sheeit with Uncle Ho ;p

    Paris can pump a high end tank in 3 turns. Lets see those damn commies beat the mighty mighty might of mighty mighty France! (Deity... im not willing to let the computer cheat as bad as Sid ;p).

    PS: Due to my dirty dirty spies, I am going to beat the decade by 5 years. That, and the Space Program. Youd think my allies would notice the constant stream of French Diplomats walking into their labs, grabbing their top secret files, and faxing them to the home office ;p

    @Pcasey: I recommend going to options in Civ and setting it to Always Build Previously Built Unit (and request build order after unit construction! thats a big one!). That will DEF save you some selection time and leave you more time for waiting for your next turn ;p
     
  12. Prometheus1992

    Prometheus1992 Warlord

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    Finally, i got it to work! Thanks to the man that helped me thru, had to redownload it :goodjob: .



    It is a really good scenario. :goodjob: and it truly does "rock on" :rockon:. But there were a few things that buzzed around in my mind.


    1) Why is there no Rename units option
    2) Holy ----! Atlanta is already size 89 and has the potential to reach 111!! :eek:

    But other than that, this is THE single best scenario I have ever downloaded, good work el justo! :)


    :sad: i havent heard that many logs with :nuke: war



    well, this is my log...sort of, since my game's date is stuck at Dec. :(

    1950 - nothing happens, everything is good in the hood
    1951 - World War III : Started with the American bombardment of the shores off the coast of Vladivostok. After heavy fighting and much bloodshed, Vladivostok fell. The battle hardened USS Missouri managed to sink 4 submarines, that were invisible (constant random run-ins). After repetitive bombings, and heavy losses against US troops, USA pulles out navy, nearly losing a carrier along the way and a Fletcher was sunk in the Sea of Okhotsk.
    around sept (maybe?) of 1951 - World war III ends with heavy US (me) ground casualties and heavy WP sea losses
    US Losses: 5 Infantry Divisions
    4 M4 Sherman Divisions
    1 Fletcher Destroyer
    1 Heavily Damaged Midway Class Carrier
    WP Losses: about 2 humvee's
    3 infantry divisions
    1 tank divsion
    4 submarines
    2 light cruisers
    2 cities: Kharbovsk, Vladivostok (handed over to china)
    1955 - World War IV - no US casualties
    1956 (early) - World War IV ends
    1957 - World War V - Cuba taken over after a vicious fight. The middle city put up the fierciest fight of them all. The USS New Jersey was sent across and bombarded the coastline. Santiago de Cuba then fell about 3 months later with minimal losses. Completely surrounded, the Havanna defenders put up a final battle, and fail miserably. (many losses, 4 tank divisions, 3 B-36's, 7 PW marines), Russians pushing into Germany, Hamburg ransacked, I decided to send help with 8 M-48's, most of which got obliterated by IS-3's :lol: .
    1957 (mid/late) - World War V ends
    1958 (early) probably when i saved my game.

    to be continued...
     
  13. Gunner

    Gunner Emperor

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    If the date is stuck in December I'm pretty sure it means you haven't updated to Conquests version 1.22.
     
  14. Klyden

    Klyden Emperor

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    Just a follow up for some of Pcasey and El Justo comments on the naval front.

    There are some really stiff limitations with the Civ 3 engine in this area that can't really be resolved.

    The Civ engine generally puts the biggest defensive unit on top of the stack and you have to plow through the stack to get to whatever target you want.

    Many people feel the escorts should have to be dealt with in order to then deal with the ship they are guarding. While this may appear to sound logical right off the bat, it does not stand what historically has happen in past battles and especially not in modern warfare. Case in point, the Japanese ships escorting their 4 carriers for the battle of Midway were not damaged, but the 4 carriers were sunk. There are countless other battles and examples and this is generally what happen.

    Subs making attacks on surface ships. Generally, surface ships learn about subs being in the area after the torpedos are in the water. Surface ships generally cruise too fast for sonar to be effective unless they are specifically hunting subs and aircraft are often the prefered method of hunting subs. In a carrier task group, you send the helos out to look around while the ships maintain their speed. (One of the best defenses against a sub is a fast surface speed as the sub either has to run at a high rate of speed, risking detection from the greater noise, or it can't keep up).

    What we elected to do, given the limitations of the game engine, is to give the bigger ships the higher values and although they would be on top and easy to be damaged, it would be unlikely that they would be sunk easily if they have escorts with them. El Justo already touched on the need for your own subs with your task forces. Another tactic to help out is that you send a scouting/patrolling force ahead of your stack to check for enemy ships and I have also set up a screen of ships in front of my task force of transports to prevent a direct attack without first having a battle with my screen. While the AI won't use this tactic, it does pretty good with the rest of it as things are currently configured. Certainly, this would be an interesting feature fight between two people in a multiplayer version.

    The bottom line is you have to have good control of the seas if you wish to project naval power and conduct landings and you are also vulnerable to air attack if you don't have air support.
     
  15. Aardvark Fury

    Aardvark Fury Chieftain

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    El Justo,

    Thanks for your response.

    It'd be great to see those Charles F. Adams DDG's available to Australia as without them, we are limited to the Daring DDs throughout the 50's and 60's. I guess when I get the advance that unlocks the Oliver Hazard Perry FFGs we will be able to build those, but that seems a long way away. Until then I'll just have to rely on the Oberon subs for any kind of sea power.

    I unlocked the Advanced Jet Aircraft [?] advance last night and I'm pleased to say Australia can now build the Mirage III and F-111. I'm a personal fan of Australia's F-111's (hence the name Aadrvark Fury!) so I can't wait to build those suckers and unleash them on, well... someone. For projection of power there's not much like them in SE Asia.

    Great game, I'm loving it.
     
  16. Adler17

    Adler17 Prussian Feldmarschall

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    I abandoned my game for a new one. This time I added a new building for producing new units but that brought me a bug. So I decided finally to introduce the Berlin Wall in Murmansk as wonder producing a Whiskey class sub per turn. This will give more Naval combat...
    I also entered these new units in my last version and the new one:
    PzKw V Panther (3 for Germany)
    Prinz Eugen (1 for Germany, a bit stronger than the County class CA)
    type XXI uboats (buildable, stronger than the Gatos)
    class 206 (buildable, replacement for Daphne (= Daphne))
    class 209 (buildable, replacement for Italian sub in Germany)
    Meko Frigates, (= OH Perry), useable for Germany, Spain, Scandinavia, Central Africa, Central America, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand (because of the wide export of that unit)

    I will soon post reports.

    Adler
     
  17. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    hey Aeon.

    i had toyed w/ the idea of adding a frenchie airbase in the tonkin region of indochina but we left it out primarily b/c of the lack of map space and producing tiels for the n vietnamese. this will differ some for the huge map as the french actually control hanoi in the 50s version (algiers, too).

    Paris sure is a powerhouse. i don't think i've ever seen a city become that productive so early in the game.
     
  18. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    Prometheus1992,

    nice report fella!

    i'm glad that you're enjoying the scenario, too.

    be sure to use your air power first to soften up your targets or else you'll be trading casualties as you try to take cities.

    like Gunner wrote, i'd try to get the latest conquests patch and that may fix both the rename feature and the date thingie (the patch definitely fixes the date error).
     
  19. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    Aardvark Fury,

    yes, we will look into the Adams DD for our Aussie/Kiwi friends.

    good to see you unlocked the Mirage and Aardvark and i figured your screen name was in reference to the F111 :goodjob:

    i always had a bag of fun when i played this position. it's isolated enough where you're not on the front lines but close enough to the theater(s) to do some damge.
     
  20. El Justo

    El Justo Deity

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    Adler,

    you know, there are other GWs out there that you can use to autopro' the units you may want the AI to build.
     

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