The Computer Knows Best: Re-Boot

Cam_H

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The Computer Knows Best: Re-Boot


Many moons ago, a team of gifted players undertook a succession game where they loyally and unquestionably followed the ‘recommendations’ of the Computer Gods and propelled the Chinese civilization to great heights, for a while at least.

Sadly, the proud empire directed by the divine insight of ‘the A.I. in the sky’ fell somewhat short of true greatness, and there was an outpouring of much heathen scepticism of the astuteness of the computer’s great wisdom.

The opportunity now presents itself to renew faith in the Machine God and lead a new people to true greatness ... or maybe not(?).

Settings are much the same as sand’s game:

  • Prince difficulty
  • Lakes, standard size, temperate climate, cylindrical, standard resources
  • Ancient Era start
  • Normal speed

The leader that the computer knew was best (in case you missed the image above):


The start (revisited):


Due to perceived ‘game balance issues’, three A.I. leaders are random, while three leaders have been randomly allocated from the following nations; America, England, and Persia.

The dictates:

In a very similar vein to the previous incarnation;

Technology

We can only pursue the “Recommended” research paths in terms of self-researching. However we can trade, bulb, or steal whatever may be available. In the unlikely event that no recommended technology is presented from the pool, then we may select any from the list.​

City Builds

Like technology, we can only construct whatever the computer “Recommends” for us. In the unlikely event that no recommended construction option is presented from the pool, then we may select any from the list however we can not ‘build’ research, wealth, or culture.​

City Placement

Cities can only be founded on sites with a blue circle on the turn that the settler is in position with the exception of the Capital, which may be placed on the starting tile.​

Workers

Workers are automated, however may be automated to build trade routes or ‘improve’ the closest city in addition to general automation. The options that they leave forests and that they leave existing improvements are ‘off’, so they can chop forests or replace Towns with Farms if the computer wishes it so.​

Auto-promote units

This option is turned ‘on’. Remember to adjust this in your game options when not playing this game so it doesn’t leak over into your other games.​

Tips

In addition to ‘Auto-promote’, both ‘Sid’s Tips’ and ‘Advisor Pop-Ups’ should be turned ‘on’.​

City Governor

The City Governor is turned ‘on’ for every city, however we can use the ‘emphasise’ buttons in each city, and we can use the button to stop population growth in a city if we wish. We can not manually allocate specialist slots. If in doubt, reset the city by clicking on the city square tile.​

Taking directions

We must follow the directions of the computer’s pop up windows at every opportunity, and answer positively / with a ‘yes’ wherever practicable. Likewise, when the computer provides a pop-up suggesting a particular item go into a city’s building queue (e.g. it suggests that we build a unit so a city does not remain undefended) we must agree.

Exception: We do not need to (voluntarily) hand cities under cultural pressure from another nation to those nations if the computer suggests so, yet we would nonetheless prefer not to. I have introduced this exception as in my experience as these messages occur more frequently with Beyond the Sword than in past versions, and trying to maintain a post war civilization if we were constantly handing cities back to the A.I. would potentially make the game even more flawed than it’s likely to be. Cities still may flip under other methods such as; normal culture flipping or through an Apostolic Palace / United Nations diplomatic resolution.

We must switch civics or convert religions when we acquire appropriate technologies or faiths provided the computer asks, however we can switch out of them as soon as we wish and are able to. We may take the opportunity to switch multiple civics on one turn.​

Diplomacy and Espionage

We have a pretty free rein in terms of how to handle our rivals. We do not have to agree to their demands, trade proposals, etc. if we choose not to.​

Great People

We can use as we see fit. As noted above, we may wish to bulb a technology that is not a ‘recommended’ option of the computer’s if we wish.​

Other

Will be worked out as we go! If in doubt, refer; above, to sand's game, or ask.

These rules are subject to change.​

Roster

  • Whosit
  • nocho
  • IPEX-731BA5DD06
  • Gocho
  • Cam_H
Please respect the traditional succession game rules. There’s a difference between asking for a skip or a reasonable extension versus going AWOL. The list playing order will be randomised or in some way agreed on by the player group.

First turnset: 20 turns, second turnset 15 turns, then 10 from then-on. Players may pause their turnset at any time to discuss strategies. Good write-up are obviously encouraged.

Mods:

This save was created using the latest version of BUG although it should be compatible with unmodded games.
 

Attachments

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Hmm. I may be interested in this one, but I have a bit on my plate, so I'm going to wait to see if anyone else is interested. I was actually thinking of starting a game with these guidelines, but I wasn't sure anyone else would play!

So I may finally get the chance to see automated workers in action.
 
Having read the previous interesting but ultimately depressing SG:
The problem with the AI's suggestions is that there's no long term plan. E.g. it will never ask you to build missionaries to spread to your cities so that you can eventually build more temples for cathedrals.
The only victory that I see is even remotely possible is a cultural one (which you can try to control by directing the AI to attack each other in late game and turn up the cultural dial). You can never out tech the AI nor influence politics with religion to a significant way for a diplo or space victory.
 
I think I might try it out by rolling up a single player game as Brennus, but will keep the offer open for sign-ups anyway.

Many of the changes that have come with BtS should make this less problematic than its predecessors, although despite not testing it, I was sure that the 'returning such-and-such city back to so-and-so tribe' was bound to cause problems if we had to constantly agree to do so.

I was a bit undecided about the difficulty level, but Prince seemed to be a reasonable choice.

Thanks to you all for your interest so far.

... and good to see you're still Civ'n too Ozbenno! :)
 
Cam, I've enjoyed reading the succession games and allway's wanted to try one.

I've just updated to latest version of Bat, containing bug, bat and buffy, seems simple enough instructions, even I could follow them, comfortable at Emperor level, though its marathon I play exclusively, but can and do dabble in normal.

Sign me on, if able, easy enough to set up separate boot for BTS with these options.
 
IPEX-731BA5DD06,

Great! Thanks for your interest. It might take a day or two longer to attract a few more players.

Unfortunately I've not had a run at a dummy game to get a better feel how it works, some of the workable options, and some of the pitfalls. Be my guest to roll up a map (Brennus, Lakes, standard size, normal speed, Prince level) if you feel so inclined and try it out.

Cheers for now, and thanks again! Looking forward to it. :)
 
I've always wanted to try this variant SG and been curious about the succession games for a bit so this sounds perfect. A few questions though.

1. How long overall wise do these normally take, for the next few weeks I have some time on my hands but in the next month or two we are expecting our first child and I imagine civ time goes away then. :cry:

2. This variant seems HARD, I'm decent at emperor 80% wins or so but yikes the computer doesn't know best, we all know that! *hides in terror before the all knowing death bots arrive*

3. What patch is it, I think I'm current but who knows.

Anyways if you don't mind a newbie to these and it's not going to take months I'd love to try it out.
 
Gocho,

I'm signing you up! Welcome!

The pace will depend on the roster, but a few weeks should do it. Congratulations on your pending arrival :dance:. Can you multi-task Civ and baby care?

I don't know how hard it's going to be. The other team really seemed to struggle, but I would have thought that at Prince level it would have been do-able. As I say though, I've not done it myself, but will run a dummy game just to get a bit of a handle. I'm suspecting Culture or Domination will be our options.

[Edit] I've played one dummy game, ended in the Classical Age. Played a second game that's going abysmally, but nonetheless going. It's looking to me that a Cultural win is the least unlikely of the unlikely victories. Building a defence is hard enough given that we've always got to build Scouts and Monuments while the Barb's chew up our lands, so engineering an invasion on anyone seems a challenge at best. I'll continue to experiment further before going into lengthy outpourings on my often-less-than-objective findings other than to say that I am seriously thinking of tweaking the leaders so we don't get Shaka / Genghis / Toku / Alex / Montie / Joseph DoWing us in the first stages of the game given our absurd building options. This would mean a map re-roll, but I'm happy enough to stick with Brennus if that's OK with the roster. [/Edit]

I'm playing with the latest official patch (3.19) and have installed the complementary BUG mod. I think we might have trouble if someone has BAT. IPEX says he "set up separate boot for BTS with these options."

Again, welcome aboard! :)
 
ok bug 4.2 played under Linux operating system, no bat no buffy no hof mods.

I have bat 2.1 on windows install, played one game quickly, just to see units nice. But don't like the modern age Tanks much...maybe just me.

Yeah, computer knows best, saves me thinking time, just have to remember to trade, Great people I tend to settle, bulbing seems such a waste at normal.
 
Gocho,

I'm signing you up! Welcome!

The pace will depend on the roster, but a few weeks should do it. Congratulations on your pending arrival :dance:. Can you multi-task Civ and baby care?

I don't know how hard it's going to be. The other team really seemed to struggle, but I would have thought that at Prince level it would have been do-able. As I say though, I've not done it myself, but will run a dummy game just to get a bit of a handle. I'm suspecting Culture or Domination will be our options.

[Edit] I've played one dummy game, ended in the Classical Age. Played a second game that's going abysmally, but nonetheless going. It's looking to me that a Cultural win is the least unlikely of the unlikely victories. Building a defence is hard enough given that we've always got to build Scouts and Monuments while the Barb's chew up our lands, so engineering an invasion on anyone seems a challenge at best. I'll continue to experiment further before going into lengthy outpourings on my often-less-than-objective findings other than to say that I am seriously thinking of tweaking the leaders so we don't get Shaka / Genghis / Toku / Alex / Montie / Joseph DoWing us in the first stages of the game given our absurd building options. This would mean a map re-roll, but I'm happy enough to stick with Brennus if that's OK with the roster. [/Edit]

I'm playing with the latest official patch (3.19) and have installed the complementary BUG mod. I think we might have trouble if someone has BAT. IPEX says he "set up separate boot for BTS with these options."

Again, welcome aboard! :)

Thanks, I'm thrilled about the baby but the whole world :lol: at me about my spare time so I don't know about multitasking at that point, but not expected until mid-late Feb.

I tried a dummy game too, played until about 1500AD and wasn't doing horrible, I think the key is certainly diplo and not having crazies. I also took Mansa as a vassal (something the original group couldn't do) and he did fantastic teching for me that wasn't computer controlled. Perhaps vassals shouldn't be allowed?

Also the whip is carrying me through, all cities except one are on emphasize food and being whipped mercilessly, choice of theater and worker 346... very well theater, 1 turn later whip... better choices!

Either way this isn't one of those games where winning is everything!
 
Lurker's comment: Are you allowed to draft? If so, you can probably beat down a civ or two with just drafted rifles and spies.

I don't see why not, I don't expect the Machine in it's infinite wisdom sees the point in beelining rifles so I doubt we will have them anything resembling early.

I think we need to decide if we are going with the machine in spirit as well or if we are fighting it every way we are allowed too, ie vassal tech, emptying cities for unit builds, pure whip economies ect...
 
No issue on drafting. It's legit'.

Espionage however might be very difficult. In my short experience with these games, the A.I. has yet to recommend building a Spy. I'm not suggesting that it won't, but it hasn't in my games. The only way to get them is to wait for a 'free hit', where the computer doesn't have any recommended builds and take one there.

One 'fuzzy' that we might need to discuss is when you get a 'free hit', can we build research/wealth/culture, and if so, if we later change that city's build out of research/wealth/culture can we effectively hang on to our 'free hit'? Can we also swap between building one of research/wealth/culture to another of research/wealth/culture without having to go back and build a unit/building/Wonder and consult the computer for a recommendation? Clear as mud?

Playing another game - going to lose to Victoria by 30-40 turns by Culture while attempting a Cultural win myself. Unable to do anything as I stopped researching in the early Industrial Age, and can't bribe anyone into war. I was also forced to build Hermitage in one of my non-cultural cities. I can't seem to get the computer to allocate specialist Artists using any combo so far.

I seem to be doing a lot worse than you have Gocho so far.
 
Yeah the building culture/wealth/research thing seems kind of iffy. I actually won my game by vassaling the world and learned a bunch but it wasn't pretty or easy. We really need to made a good ally and keep them up to par with us and the world tech wise, keeping even 1 border safe makes this a ton easier and of course someone to bribe into wars is invaluable occasionally.

Slavery until the end I would recommend, the workers love to build farms for some reason so might as well abuse it. You end up with a ton of useless infrastructure that actually becomes somewhat useful as the game comes to an end.

Culture/Time/Space are all out as win conditions, to many variables that we can't control so either diplo via :hammer: or just straight vassal the world I think.

I think we can do this with some luck!
 
Gocho,

I'm still thinking that you're having more success at this than me! I can't believe how slow the A.I. is to recommend building Workers and Settlers, until all the land is gone or you already have nine Workers building roads everywhere 'cause they've got nothing better to do.

Completely concur on Slavery. I tried to leverage the Caste System in one game, but the cost outweighed the benefit.

I'm also still somewhat amazed that you could put together any form of an invasion force! Once you get Construction, the A.I. is quite keen on recommending Catapults, so there's some glimmer of hope.

I'll persist with 'dummy' games for now.
 
I agree with the workers at the beginning, it took forever to get the first one. I planted a city deep in the jungle that loved to make me workers though so after that point there was no problem. Don't get me wrong I had tons of unimproved land but endless slaving made that not matter as long as I had 2-4 good tiles to work. Are we allowed instead of turning workers on auto from the options screen to instead manually choose which auto we'd like them to do (improve nearest city, trade route...) that might make it a bunch easier.

Also it seems the computer loves to recommend the Dun, I'm not sure if that it's coded to suggest building UU and UB but if so a leader switch could also make this easier to say Monty for alters or HC for warrior rushing + terraces!

I didn't have a settler problem at all, my first build was one :lol: and got 5 cities up in reasonable time and was basically in a war from that point on, I had several settlers sitting around in the capital eventually with no where to build without going for a walk looking for blue circles.

The invasion force is always a mixed bag of junk + lots of cats so it's not so bad, endless siege always wins anyways. Just don't get dogpiled!
 
If this gets off the ground I'll be lurking, not really comfortable on monarch =/
 
OK,

Well, I might get this show on the road soon-ish with our 'quality if not quantity' roster! I'll shoot a note to deryni and Whosit to see if I can lure them in too. I was hoping to get Pigswill on board but I'm not sure if he's been here for a while. Hopefully we'll get some other sign-ups.

I would like to discuss strategy and findings before getting too far ahead of ourselves. With the dummy games that I've rolled up I've had dismal luck with trying to get a Cultural win (although still think it's do-able, but Gocho's success with Domination is probably best), and lost two out of six of my games thanks to early-game invasions. I have had one quite successful run however when I got to Nationalism and could whip Cav's and draft Rifles ... unfortunately left too few units at home and got backstabbed. Clearly you have to spend a lot of cash on upgrading troops, which puts research back a lot. I vassalised Mao in my game, but he was one of two backwards tribes anyway, so it didn't help much other than getting Horses for Cav's.

I'm going to make a couple more notes;

(1.) I'm going to reroll the map to reduce the chance of 'crazies'. I'm thinking forcing a random; English, American, German and Persian leader, thereby leaving only two slots open for the slender possibility of Zululand / Mongolia / Aztec etc. I feel that this is important to save our game from lasting less than 150 turns yet will probably put some of the more balanced leaders in the game.

(2.) We can settle in place if we want, even if there's no blue circle. The computer put us there, it knows best. I've had some games where there's not been a blue circle for over a dozen turns, and then the placement has been terrible anyway.

(3.) I think we need to resolve what to do about 'build culture/wealth/research' when we get a 'free hit' (there is no computer recommendation).

(4.) On building Scouts, does anyone know whether the computer recommends them on the basis of the number of Scouts we already have, or whether it's on the amount of unexplored land out there? I'm increasingly fed up of Barbarian attacks and next to no military.

(5.) On Workers, I believe that we should be able to swap them from general automation to 'Trade Route' automation or 'Improve nearest city' automation. I also think we should have the option of putting them to sleep or deleting them as we see fit. I saw a Worker wanting to replace a fairly mature Village with a Farm, and put him on 'Trade Route' automation, and he went away and built some useless road instead. Does the roster think this is legit'?

Your thoughts would be appreciated, and as I say, I'll get in touch with deryni and Whosit to see if they're up for joining in.
 
1. Crazies I don't mind you expect them to come, it's the mid tier people who can't be trusted I hate, maybe a nice mix of peaceful/mid/crazy would be best? Doesn't really matter as this will turn into a gutter fight anyways, but no super early war would be nice.

2. Agreed on settle in place (or better blue circle), I noticed it didn't recommend that in my game and meant to ask.

3. This will be hard enough without asking for more trouble, if the computer lets us decide I say we build whatever we want! If our glorious machine overlords want something else they can always bring the popup "this city needs" which of course must be followed.

4. Yeah scouts are a pita, I almost wish I didn't have hunting :sad:

5. I think the worker swapping will be a huge help, I haven't tested it though.

Also I'm fairly convinced that settler first (if given the option) is the backwards way to go, it is probably the fastest way we will get a worker and we want to insure 4-5 cities at least.

Are we allowed to take settlers for a walk to find better circles? In my game it wouldn't recommend far off city placements until I got the settler near them or are we just taking what we get when it pops out?
 
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