"The Dark Side": How the US ended up in Iraq.

[Mark1031]

Has anyone seen the Frontline piece on Cheney's pre-war activities? As I always suspected it is Cheney pulling the puppet strings. Anyway I think you can watch it online here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/ in a few hours, it was on PBS monday night. Basically says that Cheney and Rummy pushed the whole thing through and got Tenent at the CIA to roll over on the intelligence. It is obvious that Cheney is a smart and driven guy, Bush is well... less so.

 

[Archbob]

Cheney is obviously pulling the string of puppet Bush.

BTW: Does anyone care about the Iraq war any more, it is getting a bit old and dried out.

 

[Masquerouge]

BTW: Does anyone care about the Iraq war any more, it is getting a bit old and dried out.

I'll stop caring once people will stop doing French military jokes.

 

[Mark1031]

BTW: Does anyone care about the Iraq war any more, it is getting a bit old and dried out.

Maybe in OT, I haven't been here for a while but is is the #1 political issue in the US and there are a few 100,000 soldiers and their families as well as a few 10's of millions of Iraqis that probably care.

 

[usarmy18]

I'll stop caring once people will stop doing French military jokes.

Going to war with France is like going hunting with a harmonica...I guess you have to care a few years more

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Going to war with France is like going hunting with a harmonica...I guess you have to care a few years more

i heard it described as bringing an acordion along: all youve got is a bunch of noisy baggage

 

[usarmy18]

Or how about this one:

Why do the French plant trees along their roads?

The Germans like to march in the shade.

 

[Bungholio]

type french military victories on google then press I'm feeling lucky. lol

 

[warpus]

Make fun of France all you want, but if France didn't help the U.S. in the fight for independence from the UK, the U.S. would've likely lost.

 

[usarmy18]

Make fun of France all you want, but if France didn't help the U.S. in the fight for independence from the UK, the U.S. would've likely lost.

True, but the U.S. has also gave up 700,000 of its sons and daughters lives in the past century to help keep France free as well.

EDIT: By the way, I'm not meaning to bash France in a mean-spirited way. My responses have been as a joke to what Masquerouge posted.

 

[stuge]

People, people. Let's not mock the French, let's mock Mr. Spaghettos instead.

"Italian career planning: When an Italian boy is five years old, his father him. If little Luigi just stands there and cries, he becomes an opera singer. If he runs away, he becomes a soldier instead."

 

[Yeeek]

I always find it somewhat out of place when US people brings this argument, that US soldiers died to liberate France in its darkest times. So France politicians should always act like the good dog they should be, licking Washington's boots if its needed.

I have the upmost respect for World War Two veterans and all the nameless soldiers who fought to bring down the Nazis. But what do i owe to any US citizen born after the war? I'm nearly 30, is there anything my generation should thanks the US citizens for.

Beside changing my eating habit, a lot of crappy movies there isn't anything at least i believe so, that i should thanks an american of my age. I will gladly shake the hands of an aged american who fought during the war, exchange words if he wish, it would be certainly an honor for me. But i won't do so with some 16 year old, calling me names and not so up-to-date about France's military history.

I'm not proud at all of Vichy France, i wish things would have went better for the allie in may 1940. Yes i said allie because whenever the Fall of France is discussed over some off-topic forum accross the net, people tend to not mention the fact that France and Great Britain were fighting together and they've lost together. However, thats not what i'd like to remember when i look at my country during this period. I see the resistance, the Free French Force. The many volonteers who kept fighting in Afriqua. Of course we canno't forget Vichy government who actively cooperated with the Germans and commited atrocities.


I talked a lot about this dark period with my grand parents, they even have pictures of US soldiers posing with them. If you are into World War Two, if i mention Brest, i'm sure you heard it before. This is were i was born and grew up. The Germans held a U-boat base there and was one of the main bastion for the wolfpacks in the Atlantic. There was nothing left of the city at the end of war. The RAF and the USAF heavily bombed the city for years. Liberated only in september 44 after a siege of 43 days.


I'm not even sure why i post all of this, but the thread kinda got highjacked yet again.

 

[Sidhe]

Make fun of France all you want, but if France didn't help the U.S. in the fight for independence from the UK, the U.S. would've likely lost.

Agree totally, that's something I understand that happened over 200 years ago and a simple objection or two recently completely destroys your independences merit and the statue of liberty that was there gift to celebrate your freedom, of course it makes sense.

Now take the English we have every reason to hate the French, we warred for hundreds of years but in the 20th century we became keen allies and now we're on good speaking terms. People ignore history and go with minor events that happened 5 minutes ago, it's ridiculous but human beings, even when knowledgeable of the facts think that a few small slights make a mountian of antagonism out of a molehill of independence. Friggin' hell you owe your independance to their help and the Napoleonic wars, show some gratitude

@Yeek you have nothing to explain, your support behind the scenes more than made up for your governments weak will, and if you understand their reasoning it almost makes sense, it certainly saved alot of French lives, and a result that would of been inevitable anyway. The US think you backed off when you should have fought it out, they understand little sometimes, and your support isn't always conditional on there help, they forget the allies helped just as much if not more, you make your decisions based on what you agree with, not a wierd Idea that you are indebted. Thankfull yes Indebted no. It was apreciated as a called in favour for past history.

 

[Elrohir]

Make fun of France all you want, but if France didn't help the U.S. in the fight for independence from the UK, the U.S. would've likely lost.

Probably, but not definitely. But the common greeting in France today would much more likely be "Heil Hitler" if the US hadn't helped France 60 years ago.

All fun at the French expense aside, if Cheney is the one pulling the strings, why does everyone hate Bush? If Cheney, (Or Karl Rove, or whoever it is controlling everything this week ) is the one really in charge, why blame Bush, like everyone seems to?

My opinion of PBS was pretty low already; it just dropped about ten points. "The Dark Side"? Please. Cheney might not be the best Vice-President in the history of the US, but he's no Emperor Palpatine.

 

[.Shane.]

All fun at the French expense aside, if Cheney is the one pulling the strings, why does everyone hate Bush? If Cheney, (Or Karl Rove, or whoever it is controlling everything this week ) is the one really in charge, why blame Bush, like everyone seems to?

Because...
1. The average person doesn't get it.
2. Bush is the "decider".

As an aside, I do blame Cheney for certain things. I certainly believe he's done things worthy of impeachment.

My opinion of PBS was pretty low already; it just dropped about ten points. "The Dark Side"? Please. Cheney might not be the best Vice-President in the history of the US, but he's no Emperor Palpatine.

You'd have to watch it to see if the name is apt or not. Did you watch it? I'm guessing no. Frontline actually has a very good record of producing some excellent, very in-depth pieces regarding the Iraq war.

---
---

Sidenote: the joking about France is old, petty, and, essentially, ********. Can we just drop it already? Probably not, as this is the internet...

 

[Bronx Warlord]

I can't really take it seriously as a news program when it's titled " the dark side "

I meean yeesh, over the top anyone?

 

[.Shane.]

I can't really take it seriously as a news program when it's titled " the dark side "

I meean yeesh, over the top anyone?

Its from Cheney's own statement. But, since I realize people would just dismiss it out of hand, I'm not suprised by the uninformed responses, like yours. Let me know if I need to explain it further.

"A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done quietly, without any discussion, using sources and methods that are available to our intelligence agencies," Cheney told Americans just after 9/11. He warned the public that the government would have to operate on the "dark side."

In "The Dark Side," FRONTLINE tells the story of the vice president's role as the chief architect of the war on terror, and his battle with Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet for control of the "dark side." Drawing on more than 40 interviews and thousands of documents, the film provides a step-by-step examination of what happened inside the councils of war.

Bold mine.

I do agree, now that we see the proper attribution, Cheney is "over the top."

 

[Bronx Warlord]

Ah ok, I figured it was the title given by PBS.

One good ole Shotgunin Dick I;d say he's dirty, just like the rest of the American political elite that we were never supposed to have in this country. Some places have dukes and barrons and such. We have senators and congressmen and the like. Not much of a differance really.

 

[.Shane.]

Ah ok, I figured it was the title given by PBS.

I realize this false assumption about the title would nicely feed into the misplaced animosity that many people have for PBS, but Frontline is an excellent journalistic program.

Some info on this particular episode...

One good ole Shotgunin Dick I;d say he's dirty, just like the rest of the American political elite that we were never supposed to have in this country. Some places have dukes and barrons and such. We have senators and congressmen and the like. Not much of a differance really.

There's dirty (taking bribes, etc...) and then there's impeachable, borderline criminal, immoral... such as directing aides to leak covert agents (I know, not proven, but I doubt Scooter acted on this own), manufacturing a war that results in the deaths of 10s of 1000s, ruins your countries international standing, etc....

 

[Bronx Warlord]

and then there's impeachable, borderline criminal, immoral

Like Bill Clinton... and this is just the stuff we know about. There both dirty bro, reps and dems. The whole stinking rotten bunch of them.