The Decline and Fall of Europe.

Little Raven

On Walkabout
Joined
Nov 6, 2001
Messages
4,244
Location
Cozy in an Eggshell
As foreseen by Fareed Zakaria.
Cartoons and riots made the headlines in Europe last week, but a far less fiery event, the publication of an academic study, may shed greater light on the future of the continent. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), headquartered in Paris, released a report, "Going for Growth," that details economic prospects in the industrial world. It is 160 pages long and written in bland, cautious, scholarly prose. But the conclusion is clear: Europe is in deep trouble. These days we all talk about the rise of Asia and the challenge to America, but it may well turn out that the most consequential trend of the next decade will be the economic decline of Europe.

It's often noted that the European Union has a combined gross domestic product that is approximately the same as that of the United States. But the E.U. has 170 million more people. Its per capita GDP is 25 percent lower than that of the United States, and, most important, that gap has been widening for 15 years. If present trends continue, the chief economist at the OECD argues, in 20 years the average U.S. citizen will be twice as rich as the average Frenchman or German. (Britain is an exception on most of these measures, lying somewhere between Continental Europe and the United States.)

...

Talk to top-level scientists and educators about the future of scientific research and they will rarely even mention Europe. There are areas in which it is world class, but they are fewer than they once were. In the biomedical sciences, for example, Europe is not on the map, and it might well be surpassed by much poorer Asian countries. The chief executive of a large pharmaceutical company told me that in 10 years, the three most important countries for his industry will be the United States, China and India.

And I haven't even gotten to the demographics. In 25 years the number of working-age Europeans will decline by 7 percent, while those older than 65 will increase by 50 percent. One solution: Let older people work. But Europe's employment rate for people older than 60 is low: 7 percent in France and 12 percent in Germany (compared with 27 percent in the United States). Modest efforts to allow people to retire later have been met with the usual avalanche of protests. And while economists and the European Commission keep proposing that Europe take in more immigrants to expand its labor force, it won't. The cartoon controversy has powerfully highlighted the difficulties Europe is having with its immigrants.

What does all this add up to? Less European influence in the world. Europe's position in such institutions as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund relates to its share of world GDP. Its dwindling defense spending weakens its ability to be a military partner of the United States, or to project military power abroad even for peacekeeping purposes. Its cramped, increasingly protectionist outlook will further sap its vitality.

The decline of Europe means a world with a greater diffusion of power and a lessened ability to create international norms and rules of the road. It also means that America's superpower status will linger. Think of the dollar. For years people have argued that it is due for a massive drop as countries around the world diversify their savings. But as people looked at the alternatives, they decided that the chief rivals, the euro and the yen, represented economies that were structurally weak. So they have reluctantly stuck with the dollar. It's a similar dynamic in other arenas. You can't beat something with nothing.
Europe, from this side of the pond, seems to be caught in a lingering funk, which is slowly but steadily weakening the region. Unlike many of my countrymen, I don't lay the blame solely on an excess of socialism, though that may well contribute to the malaise. I suspect that like most difficult problems, Europe's current spiral is the combined result of a myriad of causes. I don't know what those causes might be: burnout from two world wars in one century? Rejection of colonialism? Increasing isolationism? An unwillingness to challenge the status quo? Not enough children being born? All of the above?

But the decline does seem to be real. And I'm curious what people think is behind it.
 
Little Raven said:
As foreseen by Fareed Zakaria.Europe, from this side of the pond, seems to be caught in a lingering funk, which is slowly but steadily weakening the region. Unlike many of my countrymen, I don't lay the blame solely on an excess of socialism, though that may well contribute to the malaise. I suspect that like most difficult problems, Europe's current spiral is the combined result of a myriad of causes. I don't know what those causes might be: burnout from two world wars in one century? Rejection of colonialism? Increasing isolationism? An unwillingness to challenge the status quo? Not enough children being born? All of the above?

But the decline does seem to be real. And I'm curious what people think is behind it.

All things end.
History is cyclic.
Its just easier to observe its effects in todays technological statistic driven enviroment.
I could expound further but "End of Empire" is what it is.
 
Talk to top-level scientists and educators about the future of scientific research and they will rarely even mention Europe. There are areas in which it is world class, but they are fewer than they once were.
Considering that little more than a century ago, Europe was leading in essentially every scientific field, I'm not sure what the supposed significance of this is.
In the biomedical sciences, for example, Europe is not on the map, and it might well be surpassed by much poorer Asian countries.
This surprises me - I'd like to see figures.
 
In my experience most of the Europe-bashing comes from neo-liberal ideolouges who think the welfare state is the spawn of Satan.
 
Odin2006 said:
In my experience most of the Europe-bashing comes from neo-liberal ideolouges who think the welfare state is the spawn of Satan.

In my experience the decline of Europe can be attributed to those who think a vibrant thriving culture can be built on the backs of the few supporting the many.
Bread and circuses did not work for the Romans, it will not work for Europe.
 
Little Raven said:
I don't know what those causes might be: burnout from two world wars in one century? Rejection of colonialism? Increasing isolationism? An unwillingness to challenge the status quo? Not enough children being born? All of the above?
The status quo has been challenged plenty, so it's not that. And Europe is not subject to a major isolationist policy around the world. But the other points you bring up are quite valid. I'd say the end of empire is the prime mover here. It is still massively in effect, at least economically speaking, if nothing else.
 
Some countries in Europe are in decline like France and I'd balme the government. However large parts fo Europe are growing like Scandinavia, Great Britain, most of eastern europe.
And the comparsion with the GDP shouldn't be very suprising as the Eu has recently accepeted ten significanly poorer eastern european countries.
Furthermore I don't think Europe is very backwards in science except if you compare like a hundred years ago.
America seems to have worse potential than a lot of European countries considering the U.S.'s trade and budget defecient.
That said some European countries are in decline but not all of Europe.
 
The Last Conformist said:
Considering that in Rome it was the many that supported the few, the significance of the comparison is unclear.

You sir speak of Republic whilst I talk of Empire.And those few dished out bread and circuses (welfare) to quieten down the unhappy masses. Many of whom believed (imo) that simply by BEING roman they had a right to a certain standard of living.
The analogy stands. The problem is not with the people, but with the system they have been raised in.They expect certain things as a given, things that they forget their forbearer's had to toil,sweat and maybe even die to achieve.
Its called complacency.
 
Odin2006 said:
In my experience most of the Europe-bashing comes from neo-liberal ideolouges who think the welfare state is the spawn of Satan.
This article has absolutely nothing to do with 'Europe -bashing'.
 
Indeed sir. Now subsitute the words western for urban and rest of world for rural and maybe the glimmerings of truth may dawn.
The analogy is by no means perfect..but its virtue is in its simplicity.


@Bozo ...indeed and yet the natives are restless even so
 
The Last Conformist said:
Considering that little more than a century ago, Europe was leading in essentially every scientific field, I'm not sure what the supposed significance of this is.
The supposed significance is that there seems to be a general consensus that science in Europe is continuing to suffer vs. the rest of the world. That wasn't a big concern when you guys were absolutely on top of the world. But that's no longer the case. Europe now finds herself running in the middle of the pack. If science continues to decline, then she may find herself trailing before long.
This surprises me - I'd like to see figures.
Pretty far outside my field, so I'm not in a position to provide them. But I seem to recall a certain European Prime Minister backing Fareed on this.
But tell me: what type of social model is it that has 20 million unemployed in Europe, productivity rates falling behind those of the United States; that is allowing more science graduates to be produced by India than by Europe; and that, on any relative index of a modern economy -- skills, R&D, patents, IT -- is going down not up.
 
Bozo Erectus said:
Not restless enough by a longshot IMO.

Give it time. Loss of privelege is a great motivator.
 
regarding tax cuts and bread: It should also be remembered that in many European countries we WANT to pay more taxes towards our fellow citizens and society.
 
Rambuchan said:
regarding tax cuts and bread: It should also be remembered that in many European countries we WANT to pay more taxes towards our fellow citizens and society.

Define we. Show me numbers baby;)

While your at it explain to me why? Paying taxes and social security (national insurance in the UK) will basically gain me nothing beyond providing support systems for societies failures.
My father (still lives in the UK) has leukemia, thankfully a treatable form, and has been told " You can have 57 pounds per week as you have savings and your wife is still work capable."
My 17 year old niece got herself pregnant and was provided with rent free housing and (if i remember correctly) 200 pounds per week. My father has paid taxes and "stamp" his whole life. My niece has never even had a job.
Still want to pay more?
 
EdCase said:
Indeed sir. Now subsitute the words western for urban and rest of world for rural and maybe the glimmerings of truth may dawn.
Yeah, because Europe finances itself by taxing the 3rd world. :rolleyes:

The analogy is by no means perfect..but its virtue is in its simplicity.
Simplification ceases to be a virtue when it becomes obfuscation, and your analogy is well beyond that point.
 
Rambuchan said:
regarding tax cuts and bread: It should also be remembered that in many European countries we WANT to pay more taxes towards our fellow citizens and society.
If Europeans increased their productivity and stopped cutting the hours of the work week, that would be more sustainable.
 
Back
Top Bottom