The Decline and Fall of Europe.

[The Last Conformist]

Define we. Show me numbers baby

Take a look at the results of an recent West European parliamentary election.

 

[Rambuchan]

Define we. Show me numbers baby

Show me yours and I'll show you mine. Just kidding. You only need to look at the various parties and views represented in most European nations to see that there is support for increased taxes in many societies. Those numbers, as you well know, keep shifting.

Bozo: Well listen to Mr Greenspan now! If anyone increased their productivity they'd be a lot better off! As for cutting the hours of work, you'd have to speak to the French about that one, it's they that think it is a good idea.

 

[AceChilla]

It's often noted that the European Union has a combined gross domestic product that is approximately the same as that of the United States. But the E.U. has 170 million more people. Its per capita GDP is 25 percent lower than that of the United States, and, most important, that gap has been widening for 15 years.

Not bad at all, keeping in mind that almost halve of the 25 EU nations just emerged from 2 generations of communist rule. Those nations have economies growing with 5% a year, and don't suffer from the socialist mindset that seems to stifle the economic reforms needed in Western Europe. There is huge potential in those countries.

I agree with alot of things in the article but this "detail" seems to be forgotten.

 

[EdCase]

Ahhh! elections... a whole different ball of wax there.

So not truely we the people , more like ...we the democratically elected peoples representatives who were elected not on the basis of one person one vote, but one person indicating which way they'd like the vote to swing if the various electoral procedures see it as a favorable outcome kind of we then

 

[The Last Conformist]

The supposed significance is that there seems to be a general consensus that science in Europe is continuing to suffer vs. the rest of the world. That wasn't a big concern when you guys were absolutely on top of the world. But that's no longer the case. Europe now finds herself running in the middle of the pack. If science continues to decline, then she may find herself trailing before long.

Trailing whom? America beat us long ago, and China and perhaps India are likely to pass us, but the later two should, by virtue of their greater human resources, be ahead of us anyway - that they're not already is because they've not catched up yet to what we achieved during Europe's "golden age". The day we're falling behind them per capita is when we should start worrying.

(Forgive, BTW, a deep cynicism about this particular field - during the last ten years, I've seen altogether too many pieces by Europeans bemoaning the widening gap separating us from the Americans and ones by Americans bemoaning the Europeans catching up.)

Pretty far outside my field, so I'm not in a position to provide them. But I seem to recall a certain European Prime Minister backing Fareed on this.

Um, that doesn't address bioscience and medicine directly, as far as I can see.

Also, India has about twice the population of the EU - why shouldn't they have more science graduates than us?

 

[Rambuchan]

Ahhh! elections... a whole different ball of wax there.

So not truely we the people , more like ...we the democratically elected peoples representatives who were elected not on the basis of one person one vote, but one person indicating which way they'd like the vote to swing if the various electoral procedures see it as a favorable outcome kind of we then

Yes. Pretty much what happens in the States, just minus the recounts.

 

[EdCase]

Yeah, because Europe finances itself by taxing the 3rd world.

Simplification ceases to be a virtue when it becomes obfuscation, and your analogy is well beyond that point.

No my friend Europe finances itself by imposing taxes on the Third World nations producing the goods that its idle,insular,spoilt populace demands by imposing import taxes.This they hope (in vain) will promote the purchase of domestic products.
Therby forcing said (3rd world) producers to find new and innovative ways to produce product at lower cost, to maintain competitive pricing. This stimulates growth, fosters industry, research and education.

No longer simple. Feel better now?

@ Rambuchan..I hear that , being English and living in the USA I have had to the chance to watch both systems in action.

 

[luiz]

Europe is on relative decline since WW1, and that should surprise nobody since before WW1 they pretty much ruled the world.
Of course some of their policies are speeding up the decline, though.

 

[Little Raven]

The day we're falling behind them per capita is when we should start worrying.

That depends on how eager you are to have the average European lifestyle come to resemble the average Indian or Chinese lifestyle.

(Forgive, BTW, a deep cynicism about this particular field - during the last ten years, I've seen altogether too many pieces by Europeans bemoaning the widening gap separating us from the Americans and ones by Americans bemoaning the Europeans catching up.)

And Americans are still worried about losing their edge, though Europe is no longer a particular concern. Bioscience is a particularly thorny issue for us, given our taste in elected representatives.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Bozo: Well listen to Mr Greenspan now! If anyone increased their productivity they'd be a lot better off! As for cutting the hours of work, you'd have to speak to the French about that one, it's they that think it is a good idea.

Except for the UK, generally speaking 'Old Europes' shrinking workforce works less hours per week than American workers. Thats no way to keep a welfare state going.

 

[~Corsair#01~]

Europe in the past occupied a position that was never sustainable. We were top of the world. It's natural that Europe will "decline". So will the US in time. But it's not like we're becoming some sort of third world continent, as the US posters and the initial article seem to believe.

The reason for Europe's decline? Europe is tiny. Europe is by nature a very minor player in world politics. Due to a number of factors, we got lucky. And the rest of the world got very unlucky. But now those factors are gone. Our headstart will dwindle, and eventually we will be overtaken by some other place that gets lucky. The same will happen to the US.

Why do people seem astounded to learn that a country with 70 million people (UK), is gradually being outpaced by a country with over a billion? People seem to have this delusion that "the West" is some sort of magical place that is by definition the only place that progress can occur in. The leaders of the world. This is utter rubbish- the non-white countries vastly outnumber us, what's surprising is that we ever held this position of power to start with.
End rant.

 

[The Last Conformist]

That depends on how eager you are to have the average European lifestyle come to resemble the average Indian or Chinese lifestyle.

On present trends, the average life quality in China and India is going up, up, and up in the near future. The issue is one of they catching up to (and possibly surpassing) us, not of we sinking to their present level.

And Americans are still worried about losing their edge, though Europe is no longer a particular concern. Bioscience is a particularly thorny issue for us, given our taste in elected representatives.

Whether Europe is a concern or not, way too many Americans whine about it.

 

[The Last Conformist]

No my friend Europe finances itself by imposing taxes on the Third World nations producing the goods that its idle,insular,spoilt populace demands by imposing import taxes.This they hope (in vain) will promote the purchase of domestic products.
Therby forcing said (3rd world) producers to find new and innovative ways to produce product at lower cost, to maintain competitive pricing. This stimulates growth, fosters industry, research and education.

With a couple exceptions (primarily foodstuffs), European import tariffs are pretty low and sinking, and they're not anything like the chief source of income for European countries.

No longer simple.

Simplistic and wrong.

Feel better now?

I'm starting to feel you're stupid and/or a troll.

 

[spankey]

The age of Discovery (from a western perspective) placed Europe at a pinnacle of world power. It took 2 world wars for Europe to lose that ascendency. The US represented 1/2 of the entire world's output after WWII. That was also not sustainable. Europe (and the US) are radically changing demographically.
Europe lost its religion in the generations after WWII and the birthrate in many of its countries has become less than replacement. As a result (more job opportunity, higher standard of living), Europe has seen a huge influx of immigrants--mostly from Islamic countries. This has caused assimilation problems (cultures vary widely) and the addition of former Soviet block countries has been a drag on the economy. Europe may not have the desire to regain any semblence of ascendency. It will be hard to do when the acceptable economic policies cause shorter work weeks and higher unemployment.
The US is also changing, but the pool of immigrants is different. The cultures are someone similiar--Latin American countries are religious, their peoples work hard (I have no experience to say anything about Eurpoe's immigrants--they could be extremely hard-working as well) and the cultures are blending and not dragging large segments of the economy. The US's continues to have above replacement rate of births and I think, is much more sustainable in the longer term.

Of course China, India and Southeast Asia will continue to expand to a more appropriate share of GDP.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

t's often noted that the European Union has a combined gross domestic product that is approximately the same as that of the United States. But the E.U. has 170 million more people. Its per capita GDP is 25 percent lower than that of the United States, and, most important, that gap has been widening for 15 years. If present trends continue, the chief economist at the OECD argues, in 20 years the average U.S. citizen will be twice as rich as the average Frenchman or German. (Britain is an exception on most of these measures, lying somewhere between Continental Europe and the United States.)

This guy is funny. Umm lets see... I have another interpretation... 20 years ago EU GDP was a fraction of US GDP and today EU GDP is bigger than US. So EU must be doing incredibly well doesnt it?

 

[pboily]

I can't speak properly on the decline of the sciences, but if it proves to be true, I'd lay the blame on Europe's archaic Bourbakist approach to mathematics. So there. Problem solved.

 

[Zoso318]

Finally, The decline of Europe. They are tired, they've done their damage, now it's time for Asia to regain their rightful place as number one. It seems asia, europe and the middle east take turns being the most advanced, hehe.

 

[The Last Conformist]

It may be interesting to someone that, according to figures in the latest Nature, France still spends twice as much on research as China and India combined* - Europe still has quite some way to fall.

* State monies spent on research, that is. It would seem unlikely that the private contributions to research are very much higher proportionally in India and China than in France, however, so it should be a decent gauge of relative research spending.

 

[sourboy]

the decline does seem to be real. And I'm curious what people think is behind it.

There may be a decline, but the continent (or majority of) is shifting towards unification. There will be a time for 'sputtering' (as we're starting to see), but as the changes solidify, the continent will leap back into the global picture. Should Europe's countries become nation-states, they will be no different than the states of America. Europe's antics towards America is not helping their cause, and that could be why these changes are leaving larger wounds at the moment.

 

[The Last Conformist]

@sourboy: You seem to have your very own definition of "nation state", since by any normal one, Germany and France are much more of nation states than California and Montana have ever been.