The Deepening

[Lord Katana]

Recently i've been playing a number of games against the Illians. Besides the fact that they are overpowered early age (4 str4 and 3 str7 all with a summon) I really started to hate one of their rituals, the Deepening.

A few questions i could not figure out myself. Is the effect of Deepening permanent or temporary (and how many turns if only that)? Why don't AI see it as a DoW? It's about the most effective way for economic warfare (better then Stasis, River of Blood, Worldbreak(when cast relatively early) or any other worldspell or ritual)...

And comparing them to other rituals and even worldspells it feels very overpowered. It has an effect similar to Blight, and that is saying something!

So i propose that it effects are either lessened (less tiles and less duration) or the place in the techtree is modified (For example omniscience or any other endgame tech) along with a cost increase for the ritual itself.

And while on the Illains.... They also change terrain to ice within their cultureborders (which i think is neat feature). However, they also spread ice outside their borders and once you conquer them the terrain doesn't revert back. I'd like to see that their ice-spreading is limited to their own current borders (not their would-be borders in case of a cultureborder war) and once you deal with them that the terrain reverts back to it's orgininal terrain. Same goes for Mazatl and Mala too btw.... Nothing more annoying then wiping out a civ where the only real thing to do is just raze every city you come across cause they will never amount to nothing for yourself.


P.S. yes i know druids can change terrain (along with some other spells). But do we really want every evil leader to adopt RoK, just to get 4 druids????

 

[wapamingo]

adepts with level 1 sun, fire, and water can modify terrain very well (albeit never to grasslands quality); this is what I normally do when I conquer one of the civs you mention (have 4 or 6 adepts transforming quickly)

But I do see your point, it would be good for terrain to revert back to original form once culture is lost, and for transforming not to go across borders.

I agree with your thoughts on the The Deepening as it devastates the environment, and I agree that it should be seen as a DoW or at least have a chance for DoW with every civ.

 

[graywarden]

adepts with level 1 sun, fire, and water can modify terrain very well (albeit never to grasslands quality); this is what I normally do when I conquer one of the civs you mention (have 4 or 6 adepts transforming quickly)

But I do see your point, it would be good for terrain to revert back to original form once culture is lost, and for transforming not to go across borders.

I agree with your thoughts on the The Deepening as it devastates the environment, and I agree that it should be seen as a DoW or at least have a chance for DoW with every civ.

I agree, any civ whose magic/faith system that creates a terraforming effect by fiat should:

1) terraform much slower then currently takes place

2) de-terraform on a similar rate

If the Magical Source of the "terraforming" is removed, then a reversing effect should take place, maybe not to 100% for the "natural" land has been corrupted by the effects of the magics, but a grassland tile that became desert by "fiat" should reverse at least to plains for example.

 

[Valkrionn]

If the Magical Source of the "terraforming" is removed, then a reversing effect should take place, maybe not to 100% for the "natural" land has been corrupted by the effects of the magics, but a grassland tile that became desert by "fiat" should reverse at least to plains for example.

That is exactly what already happens in both RifE and Orbis, thanks to Jean Elcard's ClimateSystem.

 

[Folket]

You can get nature mana and get arch mages.

I don't find the deepening that problematic.

If you play with advanced terraforming you only need sun 1 to remove the tundras and make plains.

I do not play with advanced terraforming since it removes what is so special about nature 3 spell.

 

[Till]

I agree with your thoughts on the The Deepening as it devastates the environment, and I agree that it should be seen as a DoW or at least have a chance for DoW with every civ.

Would the Deepening even be worth casting, if doing so risks war with every civ? What's more, if we follow that line of reasoning, the Calabim worldspell would have to carry the risk of causing DOWs as well.

I prefer the RifE approach...or just playing without the Illians.

 

[Lord Katana]

I do think when an effect is temporary (like the calabim spell, those ppl will grow back. Or stasis) it should not be DoW. For permanent effects i think their should be a chance to DoW...

@Till... the Illains already have the most fun ritual to that effect...The Draw! Damage to all units AND a DoW on all AND no diplomacy! So having one with only a chance... why not?

 

[Lord Katana]

You can get nature mana and get arch mages.

I don't find the deepening that problematic.

If you play with advanced terraforming you only need sun 1 to remove the tundras and make plains.

I do not play with advanced terraforming since it removes what is so special about nature 3 spell.

But it still remains a problem when cast early. Druids or Archmages aren't the cheapest of units to research, while the Deepening is available at Priesthood. So even if there are enough units/ways to undeepen they are all a lot more expensive then the ritual themselves. Which in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, if it wasn't for the overwhelming effect the spell has for all non-illians.

 

[Folket]

An adept with sun 1 is not expensive. And the deepening does some damage but not that much.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I do not play with advanced terraforming since it removes what is so special about nature 3 spell.

exactly, but that option is being removed with an overhaul of terraforming thankfully

 

[Valkrionn]

Would the Deepening even be worth casting, if doing so risks war with every civ? What's more, if we follow that line of reasoning, the Calabim worldspell would have to carry the risk of causing DOWs as well.

I prefer the RifE approach...or just playing without the Illians.

Exactly what is the RifE approach?

 

[Calavente]

mouahaha...
that's a screenshot to save somewhere...

 

[Sephi]

And while on the Illains.... They also change terrain to ice within their cultureborders (which i think is neat feature). However, they also spread ice outside their borders and once you conquer them the terrain doesn't revert back. I'd like to see that their ice-spreading is limited to their own current borders (not their would-be borders in case of a cultureborder war) and once you deal with them that the terrain reverts back to it's orgininal terrain. Same goes for Mazatl and Mala too btw.... Nothing more annoying then wiping out a civ where the only real thing to do is just raze every city you come across cause they will never amount to nothing for yourself.

I really like permanent terrain changes by civs. Makes you not want to fight that civ now. Makes you not want to wait either or else they spread their terrain even more.

With the new terraforming magic system there are more ways to "heal" terrain. They come at a cost though.

 

[BlackArchon]

I noticed something concerning this ritual: When the Illians cast The Deepening and some of my tiles are turned into tundra or ice, they transform slowly back to their former state. But if I use Sun I to change ice to tundra (to speed up the process), these tundra tiles never change back to plains or grassland. Is this behaviour intended?