The Deity Challenge Line-up #21 - India

[kb27787]

It is. CV is basically a science victory, except you don't need to research the entire tree, but your goal is to reach the Refrigeration/Internet/maybe Radar as soon as humanly possible to increase your tourism before the AI's amass a ton of culture. The earlier your tourism skyrockets the better.

Science has a number of set techs which means a certain set amount of beakers to it. No matter what game, what dirt, what AI, you just need a set amount of beakers to win the game.

Culture on the other hand, will be very different when on one map the highest AI makes only 30k culture and on another the highest has 50k. Yet different again when the target runaway goes up to 70k+. While 500 tpt at t250 might win in most games, in some games it might not be enough.

If you gimped on wonders/reach the techs very fast you don't have enough time to get those wonders/landmarks built, you're probably sitting at a lowly 300-400 tpt, hardly skyrocketing, and in a lot of situations that is simply not enough. AI culture need only broadcast towers/hermitage to be maxed out; so the techs required to max cpt is much lower than the techs to max out tpt, meaning unless you do it VERY fast, you might find yourself stagnating or rising very slowly in influence. You only have a limited number of GMs after all.

Also, to get beakers faster, means to also lose out on hammers/culture and wonders/archaeologists too; everything has a cost. You must balance this cost according to the AIs in the game. It is by far, more complicated than SV ever will be.

 

[consentient]

Agreed. I've had a few peaceful CVs lately, and science is only half the trick.

If anything one could say that the fastest way to a CV is through war, switching to tourism only after one has crippled the AIs ability to generate culture. But it's not a modified SV, at all.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

I've never won Culture on Deity (but did it at other difficulties) but have won multiple SV at Deity even before participating to some DCLs. There is a reason why i always considered science my safe game in Deity. Unless some AI goes totally crazy runaway (Sejong i'm looking at you) or you get Shaka next door there is nearly no way you could loose SV if you play decently (don't even need to play very well). You can almost ignore everyone, ignore wonders, religion, CSs, keep a minimal army and still win. There is not much need to adapt to the map or AIs or interact with anyone (sure RA can save you a few turns but even those are not needed to win). You just need to pump as much as you can out of your 4 tradition cities (3 can do in most games but you are more vulnerable to loosing to a runaway Korea).

It's not possible to ignore the rest of the world if you go culture. It was in G&K but no longer.

 

[Acken]

Time to go culture/domv then Especially on easier maps. I would believe getting out of one's comfort zone to be the same motivation people used when trying deity in the first place.

 

[Manpanzee]

I enjoyed this map -- I think jungle-heavy starts are my favorite in general. Those tiles just get soooo juicy eventually, and I love having an excuse to spam Trading Posts.

Medium/Hard is probably a decent description of the difficulty of this map -- there's a risk of getting run over early, but the dirt is actually quite solid. Jungle + Observatory in the capital allows you to get a ton of science without needing to expand too much, which is kind of exactly what you need when you're Gandhi and your natural expo spots are in the path of vicious warmongers.

I played very conservative in the early game. I did a 2-city National College and prioritized defensibility very highly in deciding where to put Mumbai. You can see in the screenshot that it's in a very safe spot -- a wall of jungle in front, with an impassible Old Faithful to prevent flanking maneuvers. I got double-DOW'ed around turn 45, but my defensive setup meant that I was able to hold out very easily. Got peace eventually, and then had very efficient bribes the rest of the game and never had to worry about security.

I built one more city post-NC and cruised to a science victory, blasting off at Turn 266. The highlight of my game was building Machu Picchu around Turn 180 -- I guess nobody else settled by a mountain. The toughest decision aside from settlement spots was religious pantheon. I went with Sun God, but I don't know if that was correct. Sacred Path would have been very nice too.

 

[Tarbos]

320 SV, My main delay was my bad culture...really need to work on that.

Spoiler :

 

[Acken]

Good job guys I'm glad the start didn't discourage too many.

 

[the northman]

Trad/Commerce(thru merc)/Rationalism/Freedom

Spoiler :

Settled the gems next to the mountain. Teched bronze working first, to get a head start chopping jungle. Met La Venta, got Pottery after Bronze, and chopped a quick shrine for my pantheon (i had given up on it from the start, but the AI was slow to religion in this one). Saw lots of desert to SE and W, so took DF. Stole 2 workers from Mongolia, 2 from Ur, and caught a few more wandering around.

2nd City was on the river to the W, 3rd on the desert coast SE--production was slow here to start, but I grew this city first, then bought a hill and marble, and with water mill and stone works, the city was good.

3 city NC done turn 78, 4th city was founded shortly thereafter on NE coast next to mountain and old faithful (dangerous with Shaka, but upon inspection, a great defensive spot). I was also able to get the HG in Delhi, which helped a lot.

In the turn-80's, things got a little scary, as Shaka buried the Khan, and I saw Impi's on my borders. Luckily, Assyria went to war with Shaka for 5 GPT. I was able to keep Shaka at war most of the time, to keep him away from me. I did fight one war with him late game, after I got foreign legions, and I saw his Generals ready to steal my borders. I killed his generals, and many of his units, to prevent him from bombing me, and attacking me before I finished my spaceship. I also had hopes of liberating Mongolia, just for laughs, but sadly that didn't happen. Made peace near the end, just to finish the game faster.

Other than that, it was a fairly straightforward trad/freedom SV. I bought all 6 parts. Max BPT 1360:

Edu: 110
Sec: 133 (bulbed)
ST: 155 (bulbed)
Radio: 161 (oxford)
Plastics: 197 (took chem>fertilzer first)
Sat: 217

Religion: DF, tithe, +15% growth, pagodas, rel texts(IP would have been better)

Wonders: HG, Oracle, MaccPicc, PT, (missed LToP), Big Ben, SoL (GE rush), Hubble.

Friends: Assyria early game, but he went order. Austria and Russia followed me to freedom, and I secured late game DoF with both to borrow extra gold to buy parts.

It looked underwhelming from the start, but was actually solid dirt. Just took a while to develop. Main difficulty was managing a particular neighbor Thanks for the map! I enjoyed it.

 

[nmp0098]

Spoiler :

I thought I would try some of these maps, and it's much more fun playing a map like this knowing that others have too.

So, turn 22 double DOW from Shaka and Ghengis, and I was eventually routed.

I tried again, and this time moved my settler northeast to get a little better starting position and to ensure I would have two good expansions. I was again hit with a double DOW at turn 33, but I was better prepared and Mongolia's heart wasn't in it. We got peace relatively quickly without an attack. He then attacked Shaka, and fully distracted him because he was on the way to me. I got peace after I started attacking units moving towards Mongolia. A few bribes and a quick mutual war against Arabia (that took Shaka all game to finish), and Shaka left me alone.

Of course, recovering from that put my NC at like 120 and unlocked education in the 130s. I had to hard build my Unis, and by the time I popped a GS I was already over 200bpt so I didn't plant any. I didn't bulb any till the end either, and bulbing ST and plastics would really have helped. I did steal Banking, Industrialism, and a couple military techs.

I ended up with 2 more GS than I needed to complete the necessary techs after my bulb fest, but getting the Space Procurements policy was the real bottleneck so I wasn't too worried about mistiming the bulbs. I put one too many picks in Piety getting the gold from temples, and that alone slowed me down by 9-10 turns. I put the first two picks in because I really wanted to spread my religion to Shaka, and it worked because of his perma-war against missionary-spamming Arabia. Also, I had good early culture from my pantheon, but bad early tech, and before the middle ages I had to open a second tree. Then my culture slowed down for quite a while as I focused my gold on catching up on science instead of cultural CSs. No one proposed the worlds fair until I finally got a choice for the very last vote, and Shaka. I was really counting on an earlier worlds fair getting me my second GA and the culture I needed to tackle Rat/Piety/Commerce/Freedom.

At the end I had way more gold than I needed to buy all of the parts at the end, and could easily have borrowed ~2000 more over the last few turns if I had needed too.

In conclusion, it was a pretty slow science game but I survived the jungle/Shaka setbacks to my start so I feel good about that. At least I did in my second try... I rarely do well with a jungle start.

I've never had that kind of population balance in my cities before (39,39,37). Also, I'm wondering if the piles of captured missionaries I saw roaming around Shaka's lands slowed him down at all (maintenance).

 

[Acken]

Turn 22/33 double DoW is kind of exceptional :O

 

[nmp0098]

Yeah, I briefly wondered if the save had been rigged or something to make it harder lol. I think that was a first for me. Only Attilla has done something like that to me before, and I wouldn't have replayed if others hadn't solved this map.

Spoiler :

It seems Shaka was bribing Ghengis. The first time, I met Ghengis on 20, sold him an embassy on 21, and he declared with Shaka during that end turn. The second time through I delayed my scout a bit (no ancient ruins after all) and kicked out a few spearmen early followed by a mess of archers. Then construction before philo, with no trade route science to compensate, and all my university gold spent on composite upgrades. I had to build another late scout to finally meet Arabia and Assyria after I got peace.

 

[kb27787]

Turn 22/33 double DoW is kind of exceptional :O

I've had a t16 double DoW.... (also Shaka and Genghis, but on a different map though)... and seriously I think they didn't even really know where my lands were...

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

t170-ish

Spoiler :

So I read some of this thread when it first came out, and decided to give it a try using the small Piety strategy for the first time. I didn't follow it exactly (no faith pantheon), it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Headed NE with the Settler and founded SE of the mtn. Good thing too, because Shaka DOW'd on t48. I was able to kill like a dozen units with Archers/Spears, and started to press toward a city he forward settled on me to my NW. But he had CB show up, so I backed off, but not before capturing 2 workers who suddenly jumped out to the front lines - was he just baiting me?

T89 and Khan, who has been friendly even after my initial worker steal, is massing troops so I pay 2 lux and 4 gpt to attack Shaka. Nothing seems to happen, crap. So I pay Ash to DOW Shaka next, and of Course Shaka has an enormous army already again, but Ash takes 2 of his cities, and gets the expo near me in peace, which he razes. Nobody resettled the space, and I get an extra cocoa - nice. So Shaka has only 2 cities, but finishes the GW - founds a 3rd N of his cap, just as I start to spread my religion - so he quickly converts, and so does Khan.

Now Khan DOWS a CS to the S, I try to block with a Scout, incur tons of hate, and finally give up, and bribe Ash to DOW Khan as he looks bored again... Khan miraculously does not take the CS, no idea why not... He takes the former Zulu cities for his own, and one or two of Ash's. They make peace, I pay Shaka 4 iron to go after Khan, and Shaka wipes him off the map in like 10-12 turns - huh? Khan had Muskets and LS (but only CB's). Poof, he's vaporized, wow. I've never seen 3 civs each wipe out so many cities in such short order only to get rolled themselves.

So now I have no idea what to do. I have a small military. I am giving Shaka free lux, but I find it hard to believe he will leave me alone... I don't even have NC yet, may have blown off science too much. Money is coming in pretty well with Tithe, I will have converted the entire continent soon (except for Arabia who only has 2 cities and has been in perma wars with Ash and Shaka, so I assume lots of dead rel units). Chose culture for jungle pantheon. Wasted a policy to open Tradition as I was taking Piety but they had no effect - was super late to get 2nd and 3rd cities out due to Shaka, and the 3rd is a joke, settled the coastal marble, total crap city, but both are on the coast away from the maniacs.

I basically never steal tech anymore, but I put a spy in Mecca, figuring he was my religious enemy - must have like 4 techs already, twice I told him to piss off about spying, and he is still Friendly.

Weird game (I always say that). I mainly wanted to see if I could survive until Industrial...

 

[reddishrecue]

t170-ish

Spoiler :

So I read some of this thread when it first came out, and decided to give it a try using the small Piety strategy for the first time. I didn't follow it exactly (no faith pantheon), it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Headed NE with the Settler and founded SE of the mtn. Good thing too, because Shaka DOW'd on t48. I was able to kill like a dozen units with Archers/Spears, and started to press toward a city he forward settled on me to my NW. But he had CB show up, so I backed off, but not before capturing 2 workers who suddenly jumped out to the front lines - was he just baiting me?

T89 and Khan, who has been friendly even after my initial worker steal, is massing troops so I pay 2 lux and 4 gpt to attack Shaka. Nothing seems to happen, crap. So I pay Ash to DOW Shaka next, and of Course Shaka has an enormous army already again, but Ash takes 2 of his cities, and gets the expo near me in peace, which he razes. Nobody resettled the space, and I get an extra cocoa - nice. So Shaka has only 2 cities, but finishes the GW - founds a 3rd N of his cap, just as I start to spread my religion - so he quickly converts, and so does Khan.

Now Khan DOWS a CS to the S, I try to block with a Scout, incur tons of hate, and finally give up, and bribe Ash to DOW Khan as he looks bored again... Khan miraculously does not take the CS, no idea why not... He takes the former Zulu cities for his own, and one or two of Ash's. They make peace, I pay Shaka 4 iron to go after Khan, and Shaka wipes him off the map in like 10-12 turns - huh? Khan had Muskets and LS (but only CB's). Poof, he's vaporized, wow. I've never seen 3 civs each wipe out so many cities in such short order only to get rolled themselves.

So now I have no idea what to do. I have a small military. I am giving Shaka free lux, but I find it hard to believe he will leave me alone... I don't even have NC yet, may have blown off science too much. Money is coming in pretty well with Tithe, I will have converted the entire continent soon (except for Arabia who only has 2 cities and has been in perma wars with Ash and Shaka, so I assume lots of dead rel units). Chose culture for jungle pantheon. Wasted a policy to open Tradition as I was taking Piety but they had no effect - was super late to get 2nd and 3rd cities out due to Shaka, and the 3rd is a joke, settled the coastal marble, total crap city, but both are on the coast away from the maniacs.

I basically never steal tech anymore, but I put a spy in Mecca, figuring he was my religious enemy - must have like 4 techs already, twice I told him to piss off about spying, and he is still Friendly.

Weird game (I always say that). I mainly wanted to see if I could survive until Industrial...

So.. you paid for peace?

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

So.. you paid for peace?

Oh, yes - absolutely.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

I pay Shaka 4 iron to go after Khan, and Shaka wipes him off the map in like 10-12 turns - huh? Khan had Muskets and LS (but only CB's). Poof, he's vaporized, wow.

Well, even somewhat promoted Impis vaporize other units, which is why Shaka is so scary midgame. The really good thing about this map is the thick jungle layer, which means Shaka can only attack your cities with melee units. Plus Mughal Forts.

Did you finish the map? As far as I understand, "small" Piety relies on faith pantheon and not having Alex/Maria Theresa in game. If you look at my screenshot on page 3, at the end of the game, there were only 6 city-states left. The rest were either conquered or married away. Not even sure Diplo is possible.

I am kind of intrigued to replay the map with Piety, though I am too hooked on Tradition opener because of its border growth, and I don't exactly want to stay small, especially with India.

 

[consentient]

I'd just like to say that DiploV IS still possible when only a few CS remain. You have to use nukes to make weak AIs afraid and vote for you, and/or go to repeated votes so you collect new votes every time.

I won DCL #14 by the skin of my teeth this way. 99 times out of 100 I would have lost, though.

 

[Tarbos]

Had a double DOW from these two guys as well at T25. But they never showed up on my borders and both offered white peace deals a few turns later.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

t339 loss

Spoiler :

Dang! Assyria launched 5 turns before the WL vote I would have won (3rd round). It sucked having Maria in the game, I don't know how many CSs she married before I met her, only one after. Ash also captured several - only 6 left on the board by the time WC was founded, so Patronage was not as helpful. I was Friendly with everybody the last 1/3 of the game - the small Peity strat really worked as described...

I spread my religion to Khan, Shaka, and Ash - after Khan was killed Ash knocked Shaka off the continent, then just went haywire, nearly killed Korea. Korea had left Russia with only 2 cities earlier. Ash and Shaka had killed Arabia earlier, so my religion had the whole continent, and by converting Bratislava, it jumped the sea, and with Itin Preachers I was even starting to flip cities in Korea and Russia! 154 gpt from Tithe, wowsa.

I made Ash King mid-game in WC, knew I would be flipping to Order, and thought I had timed everything right - waited for a GAge to end... But I had just popped a GW, so was like 2 turns from a policy, and it seems I lost all that culture when I flipped. Anyway, the remaining civs were all Order except Ash was Autocracy. Sure enough, Ash's 3rd proposal was for Taoism, I took over as leader the next vote, and easily got Order passed. But I only had like 20/31 votes. Was bee-lining Globalization which only got me to 25, so I needed 3 whole cycles, ugh. All my proposals were to make Ash happy, which I then voted down. It really is a rather elegant diplo game he outlines.

I also was prepping to resurrect Khan, but I was late to build Manhattan (I wasted a lot of turns building SS parts, and lost Hubble by 3 turns, even though I went top tree first). So as a result I wouldn't have been able to bribe his votes - or would he just give them to me anyway? Just for funsies I played an extra 2 turns and liberated him anyway.

Pretty wacky to get to the end game with only 2 Order policies! Full Piety, Full Rat, 5/6 Patronage. Happy was never an issue, except when I purposefully made myself flip. Lots of gold. Crap for military the entire mid-game, just bribes everywhere, and I must have built 7 Landmarks for civs and CSs - I never even bothered to harvest any artifacts for myself.

Also saw a bunch of firsts for me - since I had a diplomat in Seoul I watched 2 ICBMs hit, and that was after at least 4 had hit his lands prior to my arrival. Korea only landed one on Ash. Plus I saw 2 of Ash's GDRs - never seen one before.

Other wackiness - I didn't build any Schools until well into the 200s, popped 2 GEs before any GSs, so built Eiffel and Broadway, LOL. The combo of being so far behind in science plus Scholars in Residence was silly - I finished 3rd in tech and only 4% behind.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

Did you finish the map? As far as I understand, "small" Piety relies on faith pantheon and not having Alex/Maria Theresa in game. If you look at my screenshot on page 3, at the end of the game, there were only 6 city-states left. The rest were either conquered or married away. Not even sure Diplo is possible.

Yeah, 6 left for me too. The jungle culture pantheon meant I was weak on faith, but man I ripped through policies early, and filled the 3 tile radius quickly (had Trad opener too). I finally started to get DF from Rel tolerance, and since my 2 expos had a lot of desert, that helped later. Also, since the 2 warmongers were in perma-war with the other religion, he got no spread. Plus only one oversea civ tried to spread, and I saw 3 GP get captured (mainly because I waited for a war bribe when they were near).