The Deity Challenge Line-up #21 - India

[consentient]

Again, this is NOT the point.


The criterion is "almost any victory condition with almost any start," but you keep bringing up Honor and DomV. Brazil is ez mode for CV, but they are not top-tier because they don't really have strong tools for other types of victories.

Actually no, the criterion

is how "easy"/"smooth" it is to win with each particular civ given a random start

Since DomV is probably the most straight-forward way to win on most maps, a civ with huge benefits to DomV must be considered higher up the ranking than it currently sits. If I roll a random map with Sweden I feel my chances will be much better than if I do it with the Celts, Siam, Austria or Venice.

I'm not saying Sweden are god-tier, but they are a lot better than people give them credit for.

But I'm tired of these debates, really.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Since DomV is probably the most straight-forward way to win on most maps

This time i have to disagree with you. It might be the most straight-forward way for you to win, but not for everyone. Lots of players are more comfortable playing peaceful.

As for Sweden itself, yes i think it's better than people give them credit. America is also better than most players think they are (they are not just dumbed down Shoshone) and probably a lot of Civs are, but it looks like if a civ is not as strong as Poland or Babylon, people tend to think they are simply bad which is not true.

 

[consentient]

This time i have to disagree with you. It might be the most straight-forward way for you to win, but not for everyone. Lots of players are more comfortable playing peaceful.

Comfort is not the same as ease. Comfort usually prevents people from learning how to war, so they stick to playing peaceful. But if they actually learned, it's much easier to get a DomV on most maps than a CV, I would argue.

Getting a CV depends so much on what the AI do. SV is quite dirt-dependent. You need a lot of decent farmland etc.

DiploV is much more difficult than people make out, as a lot of things can go wrong. Small Piety is probably the most reliable strategy for it, but even that needs a faith pantheon.

By contrast, as long as you have hammers and people to conquer, DomV is pretty straightforward.

People might argue that it requires a lot of effort to learn how to war, but they forget the sum total of effort they've put into learning peace on Deity. If they were to duplicate that effort for war, they would be far better than I am, I promise you. I am sloppy and can still win quite easily nowadays.

I would compare it to Windoze users complaining that Mac and Linux is complicated and they resent having to learn anything, completely forgetting the cumulative effort they made over years struggling to learn how to operate Ballmer's monstrosity.

As for Sweden itself, yes i think it's better than people give them credit. America is also better than most players think they are (they are not just dumbed down Shoshone) and probably a lot of Civs are, but it looks like if a civ is not as strong as Poland or Babylon, people tend to think they are simply bad which is not true.

Glad to hear you like it. America are much, much better than Shoshone, IMO. Minutemen are probably the best non-mounted melee UU in the right hands, and the extra sight and cheap tiles are very, very underrated, you are right.

 

[stormtrooper412]

The post is spot on. I find it easier (and therefore more fun) to play peacefully because I'm absolutely terrible in warmongering, as shown by my only one Deity DomV which was DCL8, which frankly anyone could have pulled off. I have a good start but a messy follow-through and I get myself locked down picking off individual units for lots of turns that eventually gets me nowhere

 

[reddishrecue]

The post is spot on. I find it easier (and therefore more fun) to play peacefully because I'm absolutely terrible in warmongering, as shown by my only one Deity DomV which was DCL8, which frankly anyone could have pulled off. I have a good start but a messy follow-through and I get myself locked down picking off individual units for lots of turns that eventually gets me nowhere

I have found out the same thing and i also found it easier to play peacefully than warmongering and conquering everything.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Comfort is not the same as ease.

This, i have to agree.

Getting a CV depends so much on what the AI do.

Yes, i think it's probably the most tricky of the victories apart from Brazil and a few select civs.

SV is quite dirt-dependent. You need a lot of decent farmland etc.

Fast SV is dirt dependent but apart from being wiped early (Shaka/Oda) or failing to some crazy runaway (Sejong launching T250 ) even half-good ground can allow a T260-300 SV. There is many things you can do to help your growth. ToA is relatively easy to get if you go archery first. Coastal cities can grow big without any freshwater. If you can get a religion (even late one) Swords into Plowshares is really strong when you play peaceful (and AI rarely take it)

DiploV is much more difficult than people make out, as a lot of things can go wrong.

Yep

By contrast, as long as you have hammers and people to conquer, DomV is pretty straightforward.

SV is the most straightforward for me. Grow your cities. Build Unis ASAP. Prioritize science techs is all you need to know. For DomV you need to have units ready to upgrade when you reach a tech or you will be too late once you produce your new toys. You need to evaluate the strength of your opponent to avoid sending too small/too large an army. You need to be able to defend once everyone hates you. You need some ways to get gold without selling luxes...
DomV is much much more than build units -> kill everyone.

I would compare it to Windoze users complaining that Mac and Linux is complicated and they resent having to learn anything, completely forgetting the cumulative effort they made over years struggling to learn how to operate Ballmer's monstrosity.

Actually, it was Bill Gates monstrosity, Ballmer just made it more monstrous
I tend to consider Macs as different monsters but that's going OT fast.

 

[kb27787]

Comfort is not the same as ease. Comfort usually prevents people from learning how to war, so they stick to playing peaceful. But if they actually learned, it's much easier to get a DomV on most maps than a CV, I would argue.

Getting a CV depends so much on what the AI do. SV is quite dirt-dependent. You need a lot of decent farmland etc.

DiploV is much more difficult than people make out, as a lot of things can go wrong. Small Piety is probably the most reliable strategy for it, but even that needs a faith pantheon.

By contrast, as long as you have hammers and people to conquer, DomV is pretty straightforward.

People might argue that it requires a lot of effort to learn how to war, but they forget the sum total of effort they've put into learning peace on Deity. If they were to duplicate that effort for war, they would be far better than I am, I promise you. I am sloppy and can still win quite easily nowadays.

I would compare it to Windoze users complaining that Mac and Linux is complicated and they resent having to learn anything, completely forgetting the cumulative effort they made over years struggling to learn how to operate Ballmer's monstrosity.



Glad to hear you like it. America are much, much better than Shoshone, IMO. Minutemen are probably the best non-mounted melee UU in the right hands, and the extra sight and cheap tiles are very, very underrated, you are right.

Ease can mean a lot of things... it can mean a fast win time, it can mean having minimal decisions to make or allowing a huge margin for error (either the decisions are easy, or it won't set you behind that much if you make a mistake), or it can mean failproof-ness (i.e. even if the decisions are hard, if you make the correct one you are guaranteed to win); so, in that sense, comfort IS ease in a way (you don't have to take 3 minutes each turn just to think but can just clickclickclick away... which is what I do when I play peaceful. When I war, I overthink things a lot)

Anyhow I'd take Celts over Sweden though... forest is easy enough to find (I won't take Siam or the rest of the civs you mentioned however)

War is kind of like CV in a way, it depends on what AIs do rather than solely what you yourself do (as in SV); in that sense it has many more dimensions to it and I'm sure the general consensus is that it is the hardest, or 2nd hardest VC for most people on deity. DiploV (if you don't DoW to prevent CS allies from being taken over, sure, something can go wrong); I fail to see that amassing enough gold, and then buying all the CSs one turn before the vote, and then DoWing everyone) can go wrong. The only case it will fail is if certain AIs decide to actually try for once and have 400+ influence (Alex I'm looking at you), but most games that never happens.

btw, consentient you don't like having 2 CBs early in the game from ruins (who, for the rest of the game, do not get slowed down by terrain, similar to minutemen) and you could just terrorize your next door neighbor from the get-go? Who needs to buy tiles if they are obtained by default when you settle anyway? Not to mention the combat bonus in own lands which is basically the free discipline promotion from honor... combined that with aggressive settling and you can make your first victim's life a living hell.

 

[IronfighterXXX]

DiploV is much more difficult than people make out, as a lot of things can go wrong. Small Piety is probably the most reliable strategy for it, but even that needs a faith pantheon.

America are much, much better than Shoshone, IMO.

It never ceases to amaze me what can I find out on this forum

 

[reddishrecue]

It never ceases to amaze me what can I find out on this forum

Has anyone even pulled off a deity victory with Shoshone?

 

[IronfighterXXX]

Has anyone even pulled off a deity victory with Shoshone?

I understand that it was a rhetorical question?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=506043

 

[kb27787]

Has anyone even pulled off a deity victory with Shoshone?

Dunno but I'm sure many ppl have... Myself, I have done it plenty of times... (really, they are a mini-Maya of some sort getting a strong early game and a lot better at early war/harassment with PFs turned CBs). I can easily say that from my experience and opinion, they are in the top 80 percentile at least, possibly higher, out of all the civs.

 

[reddishrecue]

I understand that it was a rhetorical question?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=506043

That's already done then. Thanks for sharing. .

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Well, that Shoshone vs America discussion would better be moved to the new tier list thread. I consider them very similar civs, with some differences.

• Both have a strong early game
  
  • Shoshone have pathfinders that gives them better ruins if they find them before the AI does (on Deity i sometimes have games where i find only a single ruin because the AI is too close to me and grabs them all, and this is with 3 scout start while PF take about twice as long to build). This is a very strong, but unreliable bonus. Early CB is great for bullying CSs
  • America will get more ruins and more first contact with CS thanks to improved scouting. This is map dependent but less than PF. Improved sight also helps to "acquire" workers.
• Both have an easier non-tradition way of gaining tiles
  
  • Shoshone automatically get more tiles. It would be much stronger than America if they got to choose the tiles they gain. They don't. It's a great ability if you go Liberty, it would definitely help with honor but there are games i would rather take that non-resource hill for prod before my 6th cotton.
  • America can buy cheap tiles and chooses the important tiles. It's not a game breaker ability, but it does help when you don't go tradition.
• Both have mid-late game military power
  
  • Shoshone have a unique cavalry that moves faster and this is a promotion, so they keep it when they upgrade to landship and later tanks if the game goes that long (it will do for me). That's a nice boost. They also fight better in their lands, an ability that's half useful if you go on conquest and half useful if you play peacefully as you can play a game without even being attacked.
  • America has Minuteman, a unit that starts with free hills fight bonus (like a guaranteed Alhambra) and is only 2 promotions away from march/blitz. They have no terrain penalties allowing great mobility for a strong but usually not very mobile unit line. They also still have better vision, this is a strong military boost on it's own. Bomber UU will probably not be built often, if the game goes that long you will have a slightly easier end-game.

All in all, Shoshone can be very strong early, but in the mid-late game, America will probably become slightly better. Both are good civs for non tradition-tall games (Shoshone can probably go trad-tall and just get their 3rings even faster) with America probably slightly better for a Dom-V but worse on fully peaceful games (America really have nothing to write if you want to play fully peaceful and don't even plan to steal some workers)

 

[consentient]

Yes, Bob, I would welcome these comments in my new thread

 

[IronfighterXXX]

I really don't like to discuss sth obvious but let it be

[*]Shoshone have pathfinders that gives them better ruins if they find them before the AI does (on Deity i sometimes have games where i find only a single ruin because the AI is too close to me and grabs them all, and this is with 3 scout start while PF take about twice as long to build). This is a very strong, but unreliable bonus. Early CB is great for bullying CSs
[*]America will get more ruins and more first contact with CS thanks to improved scouting. This is map dependent but less than PF. Improved sight also helps to "acquire" workers.

I never ever had game when I could find only one ruin with two, three scouts start - how it's possible? Sometimes even on 40 turn you can find ruins few tiles from AI. Just let's say it's more common to find at least three ruins than one - don't you agree? With Shoshone you can get 20 culture, +1 pop, upgrade, faith, with America map, barb camps, gold, map -the ability to choose ruins is just great.
Want better view - just attack barb archer with your scout two times and buum you have scout with America ability

[*]Both have an easier non-tradition way of gaining tiles
[*]Shoshone automatically get more tiles. It would be much stronger than America if they got to choose the tiles they gain. They don't. It's a great ability if you go Liberty, it would definitely help with honor but there are games i would rather take that non-resource hill for prod before my 6th cotton.
[*]America can buy cheap tiles and chooses the important tiles. It's not a game breaker ability, but it does help when you don't go tradition.

Just improve and sell those cotton for 240 gold to AI, this way you can buy at least two hills With America you can save whole 40 -50 gold. It hard to even imagine that you can can compare those two abilities. You can work those wheat, cows, deer second ring tiles from start when you don't have any gold.

[*]Both have mid-late game military power

[*]Shoshone have a unique cavalry that moves faster and this is a promotion, so they keep it when they upgrade to landship and later tanks if the game goes that long (it will do for me). That's a nice boost. They also fight better in their lands, an ability that's half useful if you go on conquest and half useful if you play peacefully as you can play a game without even being attacked.
[*]America has Minuteman, a unit that starts with free hills fight bonus (like a guaranteed Alhambra) and is only 2 promotions away from march/blitz. They have no terrain penalties allowing great mobility for a strong but usually not very mobile unit line. They also still have better vision, this is a strong military boost on it's own. Bomber UU will probably not be built often, if the game goes that long you will have a slightly easier end-game.

All civs can built CBs, XBs, artilleries and this is more than enough to win 99,9% games.

All in all, Shoshone can be very strong early, but in the mid-late game, America will probably become slightly better. Both are good civs for non tradition-tall games (Shoshone can probably go trad-tall and just get their 3rings even faster) with America probably slightly better for a Dom-V but worse on fully peaceful games (America really have nothing to write if you want to play fully peaceful and don't even plan to steal some workers)

Early game is most important it sets the whole of game I always choose civ with strong early game yhan civ with late game bonuses ( since early game takes 100 turns and late about 50 or is not present at all in DomV or fast CV)

 

[Lord Yanaek]

I really don't like to discuss sth obvious but let it be

OK, let's discuss obvious stuff

Want better view - just attack barb archer with your scout two times and buum you have scout with America ability

Or you can have American scout, attack barb archer and "buum" get equivalent of scouting 2 America will always have better vision than other civs, right from the production line.

Just improve and sell those cotton for 240 gold to AI

Sure you always have DoF with 6 AIs very early in every game.

All civs can built CBs, XBs, artilleries and this is more than enough to win 99,9% games.

Well, then Uniques are pointless and Shoshone are not better than Iroquois since both can build XBs

Early game is most important it sets the whole of game

Yes it is. That's why Shoshone are a good civ. I never argued over that. I posted that America is also a good civ that gets better in mid-late game. Not everyone always wins at T150 since apparently it's what you do (100 turns early game then 50 turns late game) For those players who don't have your godly skills and must actually play around 250 turns (or more) to get a victory, America becomes stronger.

 

[Acken]

I'll vote Shoshone on that one.
PF can clear camps and get to chose ruin bonus for a succession of Pop, culture, techs and upgrade. America could maybe get one or 2 more ruin and 30 more CS gold from 2 CS...
Better free borders is more attractive. While America is busy buying obvious tiles in expansions (cheaper) Shoshone will just buy A LOT less tile in the game. Also these free border tiles are 100% free (don't increase border costs).
The Comanche is a strong cavalry. Cavalry artillery is often used. The B-17 is a strong bomber, bombers are also used. I don't really like melee units.

 

[consentient]

Admin, can we move the posts on this thread that discuss which civs are better to my new Tier list thread, if no one minds?

 

[IronfighterXXX]

Or you can have American scout, attack barb archer and "buum" get equivalent of scouting 2 America will always have better vision than other civs, right from the production line.

The whole + 1 sight is very overrated thing by you. Just use mountain units for scouting and workers as baits - really that's all you need. Of course you can prove I'm wrong by showing some nice, fast DomV by America

Sure you always have DoF with 6 AIs very early in every game.

So you have 1200 gold from previous trade. It's hard to discuss that with Shoshone you can have more trade and earlier trade. Right? It creates snowball effect which allows you eg. sub 200t victory

Well, then Uniques are pointless and Shoshone are not better than Iroquois since both can build XBs

Actually, yes the UUs are mostly for flavor and don't do much, unless they are already in good archery line eg. Chu-Ko-Nu, longbowmen or mounted archery units.

Not everyone always wins at T150 since apparently it's what you do (100 turns early game then 50 turns late game)

You forgot about mid-game

Summarising we can agree that we disagree. It really hard to convince someone in this kind of discussion (without hard evidence eg. math) Of course I could show you some nice, fast Shoshone win, but than you would say it's because of land, my skill, and whatsoever you play 'for fun' and don't really care.

Admin, can we move the posts on this thread that discuss which civs are better to my new Tier list thread, if no one minds?

Yes, I'm fine with it.

 

[consentient]

The whole + 1 sight is very overrated thing by you. Just use mountain units for scouting and workers as baits - really that's all you need. Of course you can prove I'm wrong by showing some nice, fast DomV by America

I have to take issue with your logic here. Comparing the advantages of America's sight vs. Native tongues is not something that could be proved either way by the speed of victory of any one play through of either civ.

Also, you contradict yourself when you posit that UUs are irrelevant unless they're on the normal archer path. The fastest victories of all have been recorded by people with CA replacements, haven't they?

I still don't understand why you don't share more of your knowledge and skill with us, which we'd be really grateful for

Show us how to do a really good CA rush or a fast SV on crap dirt