The Deity Challenge Line-up #30 - Iroquois

[Shark Diver]

Gawd I hate that, I always forget about that bit and then I wonder why the hell is Stone Works not listed, a crapton of stone to work with but no, sorry.

I've made that mistake soooo many times that every time I see a potential quarry site it pops into my head.....NEVER again.

 

[Shark Diver]

I can't believe this is even up for debate. Not having early chops limits you hugely. Longhouses completely suck.

@ST: Can you forward me their correspondence? I have some experience in consumer advocacy and might be able to do something. They never said anything to me when it was in my folder.

If the peaNUT gallery has any input, screw those guys. I like the Google Docs format much better. At least I can increase text size easily so my salt-battered eyes can actually read instead of guessing what the numbers say.

 

[Shark Diver]

I can't believe this is even up for debate. Not having early chops limits you hugely. Longhouses completely suck.

Spoiler :

Well, in this game, you still had early chops if you wanted. You can always chop grassland and you still need to to chop a couple of hills to plant academies on, if that's your style (I often do this).

This question is probably map/play-style dependent. Prioritizing the Longhouse early (and thus REALLY early Ironworks) can be a game changer for a builder. Since it is on the tech path to LToP, it's almost a no-brainer for a wonder-monger. And yes, I get that this is "sub-optimal" play....but it works and can be fun.

 

[claudiupb]

This was quite hard, I had to do some reloading from older saves.

Spoiler :

T283 SV

I went tradition with 4 cites, one of which on the western island.

The start was really slow, I built two scouts, but I could not explore early because of the barbs, one got an upgrade from a close ruin, so that helped me get out without losing any units. I built a worker, and stole one from a CS. I built two more workers later, and stole 2 from settlers of Polynesia but that was quite late. NC at turn 89 at 3 cities, and education in 110s. I lost track of when I got Scientific Theory and Plastics, I did not manage to rush buy Schools and Labs anyways.

I never tried for a religion, I got a faith rune and chose God King, later Russia spread a religion with the +1 hammer from fishing boats, so that helped in the capital.

I tried to play peacefully but I was attacked by the Aztecs quite often, I sometimes had hard times bribing others when I saw a massive force at my borders (both Assyria and Russia had tried, but the Aztezcs would DOW just about anyone for 10-15gpt). The Aztecs were mainly friendly and gave me fair trades but they would just DOW out of the blue, they did not do substantial damage, but they pillaged my fishing boats and cargo boats. Almost captured a city the first time, but I just rush bought some military (with the money saved for Public Schools, so that put me back a lot).

I managed to get 4 RAs, 2 with Russia, one with India and one with Polynesia.

I did not build a single wonder up until modern era, Porcelain Tower was gone 4 turns after I researched Architecture, Big Ben was also gone, although I did not notice anyone to take Commerce (of course the Inca got all those). I managed to get Eiffel Tower, Cristo Redentor (rushed with GE), Statue of Liberty (I was the only one with Freedom), Newchwainver (because I had lots of problems with happiness), and Hubble.

I managed to win world fair, but that did not help too much. At the end I had 6 policies in Freedom (including the free ones), 5 in rationalism and 5 in commerce. I did not even finish rationalism, because I think if I had waited a turn the Inca would win, they only needed one more spaceship part. I had lots of scientists, so I just bulbed like crazy, even though I bulbed over the cap sometimes. But they were enough to get all the techs required.

Surprisingly Inca chose Autocracy even though it tried a SV, this helped me a lot as I stole lots of good techs, including Advanced Ballistic. If they would have chose Order I would have lost for sure.

Here is a screenshot of the last turn.

In the end I had to sell all my factories, and a couple of units to gather the money for the last part.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I think that's 4 for you now, good job

 

[Acken]

I don't play civ a lot lately due to witcher 3 so I'm really late on those DCL game. Even though I'm hosting I currently rarely play the games beyond 50-60 turns.

For the lolz I went a 6 city liberty game for a culture victory
Got a Education on turn 113.

Couldn't get engineering before philosophy due to the lack of AI trade routes my way. I missed the Oracle and instead of rushing the NC I took the great scientist. The resulting science is obviously better but at a loss of around 15turns to make the NC. Not sure which idea truly is better... This gives around 10 more science but you also are forced to get early Philosophy earlier, rush some libraries and lose some time in producting the NC. It is even harder if you try to go beyond 6 cities.

Spoiler :

 

[BearStew]

I'm currently working on my playthrough, decided to try and play culture but I am starting to think that it's going to need to involve a Stealth rush

Spoiler :

against the Inca. I can't get a single wonder because he's snagging all of the cultural once I might have even thought of getting. LToP? Nope, gone turn 108!

So far I can't agree that the 10% bonus is better. Especially on this map and because the extra +1 hammer from the forests then gets multiplied by the Factory etc whereas the 10% bonus is not. That means that you need to (at max) be working 1 lumbercamp or forested deer per 2-3 mines or 4-5 riverside hill farms (w/o order) in order to break even. This is without really taking into account that these hammers are multiplied meaning that later in the game, once you have factories, nuclear plants and any other bonuses from social policies etc. this requirement could drop to 1 forested tile per every 4-5 mines. I think this is possibly the biggest plus for the longhouse. To begin with, you need one bonus hammer per 10 base hammers to achieve parity with the workshop right? as the game progresses that drops to one hammer per 9, 8 and so on due to the other multipliers. Don't get confused here, the workshop is an additive bonus even though it's presented as a % of base hammers. It does not multiply with the factory, nuclear plant etc. the longhouse does.

Not to mention that for the Iriquois, for most of the game a forested lumbercamp produces a better tile than any plain mine (bonus resources obviously exempt here) because of the extra food. This is very achievable in the start location, and I'll use later cities to determine viability elsewhere.

I have been taking screen shots of production numbers to date to back this up and I'm founding a couple of late cities in pretty meh locations to determine general viability.

@Consentient I understand what you're saying about losing the ability to chop, but I guess I'm not convinced of the need to chop outside of wonders etc. when your civ has multiple bonuses to leaving the forests in tact. It comes down to balancing the pros and cons, and will come down to how much of a benefit I can prove this is worth. A small gpt increase and a production boost don't seem like much so I'll have to put the numbers together in order to form a complete argument.

I think I've found the best use I've ever had for Mohawks so far too. Use them as prebuilds for muskets or some other later unit. The lack of iron dependency allowed me to pre-build mohawks in 2 turns whilst teching up to scientific theory, then blast through to gunpowder and upgrade. Theoretically then, 1 Iron then becomes enough to upgrade an army of 10 or so muskets. Other civs can often suffer if you wanted to rush with muskets and cannons for example and can't pre-build enough infantry units to upgrade. The Iriquois also have good production through this part of the game too which helps, I think my first expo was pumping a mohawk/turn out around T130

Spoiler :

ready to sail to the new world to the west

Nothing really special I guess, I wish they started with the woodsman promotion.

Edit: forgot to give an update on the game, I went trapping and optics first, then NC late around T87. Then to engineering before heading to education. Delayed education until T113 which is late-ish but not too bad, but consequently had longhouses, ampitheatres and markets up before I hit edu. Bought 2 unis and hardbuilt the third. Kind of a waste but meh. Been spying on

Spoiler :

Assyria cause he's a giant douchebag and killed off India

so it would be a positive as far as world diplo is concerned if we traded denouncements. I stole 3 workers early, nabbed one from a CS and two from

Spoiler :

India

, hard built one later because I couldn't keep the tile improvment pace up with population growth in my cap. Tradition seems like the non-obvious choice to me for the Iriquois given Hiawatha's city spam flavour, but the faster border growth helped to connect my cities through forests much faster, so that was nice. I know settling 3-4 cities after T150 isn't really ideal and they are going to suck some internal trade routes away from my capital to get started, but I want to use them to look at production etc. and maybe they'll net me a couple of archaelogical dig sites. Still not really sure how to progress with the tourism game, guess I'll beeline hotels and airports,although I dont know how much they'll do without any wonder or tile cultural yield. I'll try and win the international games and get to the internet. I'll spam some archaeologists too I guess...

 

[BearStew]

Game update: Culture Loss T226!

Spoiler :

So I lost to Pachacuti. He won a CV on T226! nothing really I could do by that point, was closing in on stealth, maybe 5 turns or so away, but even then I wouldn't have done enough damage quick enough. I should have gone to war earlier and done some damage to Assyria and worked my way through.

So I still don't have my CV yet. I'll also go through my screenshot and post them up maybe in another thread to show the maths behind the longhouse. Shame I couldnt get complete end game production bonuses to prove completely. Oh well. Might replay for that sake.

 

[Acken]

Eh T226 CV by an AI is quite surprising even if this one had a bonus O_O

 

[Acken]

Culture victory on turn 261.

A bit of reloading. Didn't get any early wonder. Only Eiffel Tower, Broadway, Neuschwanstein, Sydney opera house, Statue of Liberty, CN Tower.
I also was pissed to have literally 0 landmarks on my territory ! Despite all this I managed to get 750tourism during international games and 3 musicians on Incas cut down a good chunk of the tourism. I had to overcome 51K culture at the end. I also made sure I kept spending a lot of money into blocking him out of cultural CS.

Won both World fair (1300 hammers) and International games (2200 hammers) but I find these relatively easy when playing wide games as such.

Went 6 cities Liberty (+Aesthetics +Rationalism +Freedom). Quick 6 cities, Engineering before Philosophy and Great Scientist out of Liberty. NC was built around T103. I currently have no clue what strategy is the best between these 2 Liberty variants:
-Get the GE and rush NC for 6+ cities. Fastest NC, 300 free hammers.
-Get a GS instead and manually build NC. Better long term beakers (if you make a ton of cities the capital probably isn't that big to make the NC (academy approximately same beakers as NC) at the cost of 300+ NC. If you go engineering first, it's very hard to get the Oracle.

And then there's the question of whether or not you should get engineering before Philosophy when doing this. It allows your first cities to get Aqueducts right away as well as a route. The delayed NC allows you to get granaries in expansions. I have tried both ideas in this game Philo first and then Engineering first. Engineering first gave better results.

Spoiler :

 

[peddroelm]

After an almost week long break and some upload issues I'm nearing the end of this LP/challenge.

youtube playlist

Opened 3 city honor hopping for frigates .. Messed up and ended up stuck for 200+ at peace with honor (big nono) (tiny engagement with single City state) .. There will be landship flood and maybe even tanks to finish it off (thank god for pangea map ).. Pretty terrible culture game - lightning warfare will come late or maybe never. No exploration opener (sub + frigate fleet) and probably no Clausewitz's Legacy ..
Severe lack of practice shows (and also not stopping every 30 minutes to reevaluate priorities) ..

 

[stormtrooper412]

oh, the man is back

 

[consentient]

I feel like I would if Lynch made a 3rd series of Twin Peaks

 

[stormtrooper412]

wasn't the 3rd season rumoured to be in the works already ?

 

[cazaderonus]

Erf, that one is tough one....

Spoiler :

I'm nearing T150 and i dont see myself getting to scientific theory until another 20 turns or so... Everything is rare on that map, lux variety, strategic resources to sell, money. Such a pain. I think going tradition was bad. Probably should have gone liberty to ease the tough start and avoid having to build some workers.

3 city NC at turn 85 or so. Build a 4th on the island to the west though not sure i picked the best spot (coastal, NW and dyes in third ring). Didnt want to settle down south past my little islandey start as Assur was already on a war path. Also, already knew trade routes would have to stay internal for food so meh whatever.

Culture is awfully low. i'm around 4500/5000 when the lead already has 15k.

I have no idea where this is going. Russia and Arabs are gone, crushed by Assurbanipal (crushed is an under statement). Only good point here is that i feel pretty safe as going for my original 3 cities would be a nightmare for an AI.

I think i'm gonna stick with it just for experience, wanted to try a CV but that's probably the one i have the least experience with. Thinking that even an artillery rush would be a pain on that map.

I would have loved a LP on that one Acken as the difficult starting setup would make it a very nice lesson. Too bad you've cut on your Civ 5 time.

 

[consentient]

wasn't the 3rd season rumoured to be in the works already ?

I never heard this rumour. Unfortunately, I am 100% certain than Maclachlan would never be up to the task anymore. Given how awful every other role he's played has been, I find it amazing that he was able to do what he did in the first place.

Anyway, I won't take this any further OT...

 

[beetle]

I can't believe this is even up for debate. Not having early chops limits you hugely.

On this map, I felt no lack of chops. Did you? I chopped every flat early (except camps), there were just so many. I was never really tempted to chop the forested hills.

This is similar to my experience with every Iroquois and Celts game I have played. On paper the UA seems like a handicap -- because not having early chops limits you hugely. But the forest bias seems to make up for it in actual play.

Leave some, but chop lots of forest > chop every forest when you have average amount of forest

Culture victory on turn 261.

Did you have any trouble from you-know-who because of Akwesasme? How did you manage that AI early?

 

[Olodune]

I currently have no clue what strategy is the best between these 2 Liberty variants:
-Get the GE and rush NC for 6+ cities. Fastest NC, 300 free hammers.
-Get a GS instead and manually build NC. Better long term beakers (if you make a ton of cities the capital probably isn't that big to make the NC (academy approximately same beakers as NC) at the cost of 300+ NC. If you go engineering first, it's very hard to get the Oracle.

And then there's the question of whether or not you should get engineering before Philosophy when doing this. It allows your first cities to get Aqueducts right away as well as a route. The delayed NC allows you to get granaries in expansions. I have tried both ideas in this game Philo first and then Engineering first. Engineering first gave better results.

I've settled on a GSci for 5 city liberty as the superior option. I think for very fast/rich games at 6+ cities rushing the NC is better. Somewhere in-between there must be a crossover point, suggesting the different is likely not that large in most cases

Engi before Philo? I can see that making sense if happiness is manageable at that point, but I'll need to practice it to have a useful opinion. I'll do that. It has the added benefit of early CBs in case an AI takes exception to your city spamming

 

[Acken]

Did you have any trouble from you-know-who because of Akwesasme? How did you manage that AI early?

I just sent him on someone else all game long. He attacked me after ideologies but I was ready.

Engi before Philo? I can see that making sense if happiness is manageable at that point, but I'll need to practice it to have a useful opinion. I'll do that. It has the added benefit of early CBs in case an AI takes exception to your city spamming

By the way what is the logic behind the "They believe you are building cities too agressively" ? Sometimes I make 6 cities like the Iroquois game and nobody is angry and sometimes as soon as I put down a 5th city I get instantly DoWed by angry AIs.

 

[consentient]

I think the building cities too aggressively dynamic is completely broken. I've had it when going 2 city Honor and conquering other cities. It doesn't mean at all what it seems to say.