The Doviello Unique Mechanic

[zup]

Simply the ability to scavenge metal promotions from fallen enemies would be a nice improvement. Perhaps the enemy has iron weapons before you have smelting? But your bronze armed sons of Asena are nicely promoted, their iron champions are fresh. All your weapons are belong to us.

It should not be only 4 national units (whom you will likely never see in action anyway) who get weapon upgrades on the field. (I might refer to the berserker uu flavor.)

 

[Err0l]

Yeah, gaining weapon promos in the field sounds neat and doviello-ish.

I've been reading the Skuld pedia entry and got the idea of actually incorporating that: Any sufficiently high-leveled (think level 5 or such) unit can hang itself to the tree in the capital. You'll lose the unit in any case, but there's a small chance that you get a Skuld (which is influenced by the tier and the level aof the sacrificed unit). Result wouldn't be pretty... for the opponent. And any normal (read: not-savescumming) player will need to sacrifice truckloads of units for one of these.

 

[Blakmane]

part of the reason the doviello are so weak in lategame is because of the fact that they lack 2 full traits. I'm still not entirely sure why this is. (ingenuity and barbarian I would not count as full traits. The other civs get them for free).

 

[bc1]

On the higher difficulty levels the Doviello are very powerful, they don't need any buff IMHO.
Even on the magic side of things they are good since they don't need to build any sissy mage guild to build shamans...

 

[Izmir Stinger]

... wheelz, *POW* and Spiky Bits. wheelz xp comes from defeating chariots, catapults, golems, anything a little bit mechanical. *POW* is just a generic term for anything explosive or magical - so gunpowder units, Arcane units Disciple units, Heroes and similar. Spiky Bits would probably be larger than the other two meters and would come from everything else.

The Donivello are "hummies dat thinks dey is wargz," not "on o' Da Boyz."

Have you been cheating on FFH with Warhammer?

 

[LDiCesare]

I like the Doviello as they are. Forcing the war machine to require a 100xp uni sounds utterly horrible to me.

 

[Jules.lt]

It's just one way to do it.
To me, forcing the Doviellos to research Machinery to get their Hero is even more counter-nature...

 

[Senethro]

The Donivello are "hummies dat thinks dey is wargz," not "on o' Da Boyz."

Have you been cheating on FFH with Warhammer?

I was actually trying to imagine what the workspace of Dentaro, the Doviello renaissance man would look like. I decided it would be filled with drawings reminiscent of Leonardo da Vinci, but Dentaro's mirror writing would be because he is semi-literate and can never remember which way round the letters go. His Vitruvian Man would probably be drawn from life with horrible axe wounds and all the fantastical mechanisms would have a slicy, maimy, theme to them.

 

[Domingo]

The War Machine doesn't feel like it really fits as the Doviello unique unit. I mean, wouldn't a civ of barbarian warriors be more inclined to have a super berserk warrior than a huge war machine? I think so.

 

[LDiCesare]

It's just one way to do it.
To me, forcing the Doviellos to research Machinery to get their Hero is even more counter-nature...

I understand, but tying the civ's hero to something other than a tech makes it different from all other civs heroes and much more hazardous. If it had to be done, I'd favor using a great general. I believe that Great People in FfH2 are vastly underexploited, even including great generals and Grigori heroes. But even then, I think it's better the way it is now. You cannot base a strategy on building up to 100xp a unit that's noit already very strong, and then requiring a strong unit to get an even better one doesn't seem very interesting.

 

[Jules.lt]

Using the original great general mechanic is possible if the figure is set right for the War Machine to arrive at the right moment, and it's certainly much better than researching Machinery...
But I still think that the upgradeable Hero mechanic is much more fun

 

[rhuntar]

I was reading this thread on a coffee break and then while working it was apparently on my mind...

In response to the issue of Doviello only having 1 full trail, what if they had the ability to take one trait from a civ they eliminate. This would lend towards their rushing tactics, as the sooner you conquer a civ, the sooner you get your second trait.

Gaining more than one would be obviously overpowered.

Fluff wise, in my head they would capture some advisor or the leader of the enemy civ, and gain from his experience.

Potential modifications if this was seen as too strong... it could wear off after about 100 turns (the captured civ leader finally dies, either due to exposure to the elements or an angry doviello chieftain), it could require some level of technology, etc.


just my day's inspiration
-rhuntar

 

[Darksaber1]

The War Machine doesn't feel like it really fits as the Doviello unique unit. I mean, wouldn't a civ of barbarian warriors be more inclined to have a super berserk warrior than a huge war machine? I think so.

That's the point. The War Machine is so incredulus, you'd never expect it. That's what makes the tale Dentaro so interesting.

 

[Ogden Reeve]

I have to say that I love the idea of Dentaro being a Doviello hero that can eventually upgrade to The War Machine. I've allways loved The War Machine but disliked having to research Machinery to get it.
I think that some people have a problem with this suggestion because they think it will be a nerf rather then an improvement to the Doviollo.
I believe I have a solution for that. Denatro can upgrade into the War Machine when he hits 100 xp, OR when you discover Machinery.
Bam, problem solved.

 

[Keyeth]

I like some of these ideas about the hero, and I'm intrigued by the idea of adopting a trait when wiping out a civilization, as well.

I'm surprised that no one has offered up the idea of them being capable of building more than 4 berserker units. In exchange for them lacking the capacity to reliably fight with other means, having more of an offensive-oriented unit might help them have the sort of belligerent edge that they need as the game progresses.

I don't consider myself an expert by any means though, this might come too late, or not provide enough of a tangible benefit (or too much of one), but it sounded good in my head.

 

[Imuratep]

Simply the ability to scavenge metal promotions from fallen enemies would be a nice improvement. Perhaps the enemy has iron weapons before you have smelting? But your bronze armed sons of Asena are nicely promoted, their iron champions are fresh. All your weapons are belong to us.

This idea is really good and would be a great addition to the playstyle of the Doviello.
Another problem especially Mahala often has during war is that the slaves and workers you upgrade don't have any weapon promotion though you could give them bronze weapons if you got the chance to. In your rush you don't want to keep many cities and these cities sometimes aren't even connected to your territory so you don't have the chance to upgrade them to your weapon standard. That's why a unit that can not attack anyone but that's able to give his weapon promotion to another unit would be nice. This unit should be able to have several weapon promotions (about 3) for that it could give it to several units before it has to return to your territory.

 

[MacMoney]

I was reading this thread on a coffee break and then while working it was apparently on my mind...

In response to the issue of Doviello only having 1 full trail, what if they had the ability to take one trait from a civ they eliminate. This would lend towards their rushing tactics, as the sooner you conquer a civ, the sooner you get your second trait.

Gaining more than one would be obviously overpowered.

Fluff wise, in my head they would capture some advisor or the leader of the enemy civ, and gain from his experience.

Potential modifications if this was seen as too strong... it could wear off after about 100 turns (the captured civ leader finally dies, either due to exposure to the elements or an angry doviello chieftain), it could require some level of technology, etc.

This sounds like a rather cool idea. Gaining more than one is defniitely out, but maybe if you wipe out another civilization, you could replace the old one with something else or if you lost them with time.

I have no idea if it is at all possible to implement though.

As for Denetro upgrading into War Machine. I'm not sure if I actually like the idea, but I think if at all possible, it should be made a spell that consumes the caster rather than anything else. However, a better idea would be the Great General spawning principle from Vanilla. Makes more sense since if I remember my lore right, Denetro wasn't much of a fighter anyway.

 

[Jules.lt]

As for Denetro upgrading into War Machine. I'm not sure if I actually like the idea, but I think if at all possible, it should be made a spell that consumes the caster rather than anything else. However, a better idea would be the Great General spawning principle from Vanilla. Makes more sense since if I remember my lore right, Denetro wasn't much of a fighter anyway.

That's a good way to do it too. Probably simpler than my crazy idea
Will need some playtesting to get the figure right, though. It needs to be challenging but not unattainable, and scale with the number of targe... er, players available.

 

[Imuratep]

If you wanted to connect it to a great person type, wouldn't it be more fitting if Dentaro was an engineer not a general? A general is more about motivating the troops and planing the battle, but Dentaro in his pedia entry is described as a loner who cares most about his lifework and tries to make it better after each combat.
But I don't really know if this is the way to go. Instead I would put the war machine to an earlier tech, namly engineering, and I would decrease it's strength from 19 to 8. In exchange the War Machine has a certain chance to gain a point of power each time it wins a combat (perhaps 20%) and a much higher chance if it razes a city (50%). This would reflect that Dentaro collects the weapons of defeated enemies and the war machine is growing and growing. Also this would actually make the War Machine to something you would like to get as it wasn't just a random unit with a high strength, but a unit with a certain RPG factor (as you rejoice about every power point you get).

 

[MacMoney]

If you wanted to connect it to a great person type, wouldn't it be more fitting if Dentaro was an engineer not a general? A general is more about motivating the troops and planing the battle, but Dentaro in his pedia entry is described as a loner who cares most about his lifework and tries to make it better after each combat.

He is, but I was thinking along the lines of enough experience gathered (or however the great general-counter worked in Civ IV) corresponding to enemy troops destroyed which would leave equipment for Dentaro to salvage. I didn't mean for GP-points to come in at any point.