The End of the War on Terror

@ El_Machinae: To cut down on having to post the same things in two threads, let's agree to move this discussion over to the original Religion and Islam thread. It'll be easier for both of us that way!

(I'll try to respond to the comments you may have made here, that weren't made there, but in the future, on this topic of our discussion, let's keep it limited to the one thread.)
 
First of all, yours is a post that really needs no reply. The sort of things you've said here are just astounding, and I can't believe the hate and contempt for Muslims that seems to pulse inside you.

Now that I must protests, the God of the bible is a trinity, even in the old testament a trinity is implied (got uses plural terms like we when describing himself even in genesis) therefore trying to say we worship the same God simply because we both believe in some of the same OT characters, really doesn't make much sense.

This is a weak argument. In similar fasion, God in the Qur'an is described using the pronoun "We" at times. As in "We spread the earth before you like a blanket" or something like that. This is simply an alternative to saying "I," which denotes a great deal of grandeur and authority.

Think of the British, royal "We". When the Queen says "We are not amused." She is speaking only about herself, however it is common tradition for British royalty to refer to themselves in such a way.

Muslims believe in the total singleness of God and there are worshipping a different God than any serious Christian.

So do Jews, Unitarian Christians (and as far as I know), Jehovah's Witnesses.

Obviously not [Referring to whether an Iraqi or an Afghani life is worth as much as an American's/Christian's]. Man are created inherently unequal in all things, some are smart and some are dumb, rich or poor, gifted or not. Some are saved by God and some are left to burn. Its the nature of life. Obviously I value the life of people closer to me over those far away, my brother is worth more to me than a stranger. That's just the way life is meant to be. This is why wars occur. At some point someone decides the lives (innocent or not) of the other nations people are expendable in comparison to those of our own. Denying that denies the nature of warfare. Yes we should limit collateral damage, and we do. 98% of the deaths in Iraq are being caused by OTHER Iraqis, not coalition forces. But ultimately the lives of the people of Iraq are expendable in comparison to those of our troops. Just as the lives of our troops are expendable in comparison to the lives of civilians back home, just like the lives of a couple hundred thousands "innocent" Japanese were expendable compared to our ground forces that would have had to invade the Japanese home islands. Its just the way war works. Its not nice or fair.

You're treading down a treacherous slope here. You seem to show no (or very little regard) for the lives on non-Christians. I welcome you to proselytize to me and try to convince me that your brand of Christianity has it right. I want to see what on earth could be so profound to give you such terrifying disregard for the lives of those that don't share your religion.

Also, I'd like to hear from you why you believe the US went into Iraq.

Your right. I should have said they wanted shots at FREE strong Christian westerners. Obviously nobody cares about suppressed minorities of Christians in Muslim dominated nations, walking around in fear of being grabbed and tortured for preaching the gospel or not wearing there headscarf. Its not just the fact that there Christians. Its that they are American White Christians, the very legions of the great Satan itself. Its obvious that the Iranians/Syrians are supplying weapons and personal to the insurgency in Iraq, its all over the news and its just common sense, why wouldn't they? They obviously hate the US as prime backer of Israel.

First of all, Christians aren't forced to wear headscarves in most Muslim countries, and in fact, in some, Muslim women are forbidden by law from doing so!

You say that "Obviously nobody cares about suppressed minorities of Christians." Based on what you've said, I would at least assume that you do!

Although Syria and Iran may be playing some limited role in the insurgency in Iraq, the majority of it is homegrown. Let me guess, you're a frequent FOX news viewer?

And many Muslims are critical for America's blind support of Israel but few passionately hate the US as you describe.

Jesus also told his own disciples to sell there coats and buy swords, because it better to be able to defend yourself than be warm. Striking on the cheek was a common insult in ancient times, it has no bearing on defense, warfare, or anything of the sort. He was saying that if someone insults you ignore him. Honestly I think we have done a whole lot of "ignoring" of militant Islam, pretty much until they started blowing our stuff up.

Fair enough, you may have me here, if that is indeed the case, it makes the Jesus (pbuh) depicted in the Bible more consistent with Islamic values of justice. Self-defense is clearly allowed in Islam.

Once again this falls under the "expendability" of the enemy population during warfare.

I can't believe you're not more concerned with the refugee crisis the US has created. Not only were there no (or next to no) terrorists operating in Iraq before the invasion, the US is foolishly giving a new generation of Muslims a laundry-list of reasons to dislike them.


Honestly its not really relevant anymore, the "Palestinian" state is simply an attempt by Syria to make a land grab into Israel, where the Israelis kicked them out in the 6 days war.

That is one of the most misguided characterizations of Palestinian attempts for statehood that I've seen anywhere.

As to not recognizing the state of Israel, is simply ridiculous, not a single individual fighting the Israelis was even alive during the original Israeli War for Independence. The fight is not so much over land as nations like Syria and Iran(via there Palestinian pawns) would have the UN and media believe, but over the existence of a Jewish western nation in the midst of a sea of Islam. Its a religious cultural war far more than a war over a bit of land the Palestinians haven't lived in for over two generations anyway.

You make the argument that Palestinians haven't lived there for two generations? What about all of the Palestinians living under oppression right now in the West Bank? Jews haven't been the majority in Palestine for hundreds upon hundreds of years, and you're saying they've lost their right to their homeland because "they haven't been there for two generations?" You seem to care little and have no compassion for the millions of Palestinian refugees that live in horrible conditions, because they were forcibly removed from their land.


There we agree on something. And I don't know about you but when I think of speaking out I'm not talking about dancing celebrating in the streets of the cities after our building get blown up.

You quoted the first part of my statement but not the second (about you and those with similar views being more critical of the US and Israel for their actions). Clearly based on your post, you don't believe that such criticism is necessary.

I really hope that you don't represent the "new face" of Christianity.
 
War on Terror is the politically correct term for War on IslamoFascists.

It will be over when there is no longer a global movement of people using Islam as a tool to recruit and motivate others to commit acts of terror. It's gonna be a long war.
Ok, how do you know there is no more global movement of people using Islam as a tool to recruit and motivate others to commit acts of terror?
 
Unlike the previous clashes between the West and Fascism and the West and Communism which were largely political and economic, the primary focus of this war is religion, or at least perceived religion, in reality many westerners are christian only in tradition,
True for Europe, but surely not for the US.

I say we have a War on Religion, they're as bad as each other.
 
Since this group of people don't actually have the right to wage war against a foreign power,
No one has anymore of a "right" to this than anyone else. It's just that with countries it may be more plausible - and more preferable - to try negotiation first.

If some small country decided to attack the US, you can bet they'd go invading and wouldn't bother with negotiations, that only happens when war is something they want to avoid.

there is nobody on 'the other side' with which to negotiate a peace.
Yet strangely, there is another side of countries to go invading.

It is quite right to say that fighting terrorism is not the same as fighting a war - but then I'm left confused why US is fighting this just like a conventional war, even going so far as to name it a war.
 
Geez, Centurion, where are you getting your mindset from?

It's perfectly normal to be concerned about refugees. And it's perfectly Christian to be as concerned for the innocent people across the globe as your own family. It might be unnatural, but it's Christian.

To love your family more than the innocent people harmed by your actions is NOT Christian. But it's natural, you're right there.
 
All jokes aside, when the Iraqi government is in charge of Iraq, the Afghani government is in charge of Afghanistan, Osama's head is on a pike in Time's Square, and perhaps a few other minor things.

Osama and his employer of course, namely George Bush :lol:

Even if the US eliminates Al-Qaida, there will be always other terrorist groups seeking to target US interests.
They will never do that, the american government has had several opportunities to catch Osama, but they're too smart to slaughter the gold-egg-laying goose

Seriously, I agree with those that say that "the war on terror" cannot be definitively won. It is still important to pursue known terrorists though.

Just make sure you include all known terrorists ;)

We can't lose the war on terror, since the terrorists want to eradicate Western Civilization and lack the capability to do so

Sure! Imagine that the terrorists were pissed because the american heroes starved 1.5 million Iraqis to death via sanctions? But it's all your fault guys.. if you nuked Iraq from the beginning illiminating it's whole population once, terrorists wouldn't have had much to worry about (except israel, but that's another story)

The only other possible ending I can see involves Al Qaeda setting off a nuclear device in the West, which would be a civilization altering event.
And this will happen when the Joker nukes Batman city. Have you been playing Civ too much lately?
I'll never stop wondering how can people believe such nonsense

as long as THEY believe the west is christian, this is a religious jihad to them.

Did anybody here have the imagination to answer the question "why didn't terrorists attack Norway, Iceland, NewZealand, China, Zimbabwe, Brazil, Canada"? Just to name a few examples of "christians", not to mention Christian minorities living in the terro, I mean Islamic countries for centuries?


War on Terror is the politically correct term for War on IslamoFascists.

It will be over when there is no longer a global movement of people using Islam as a tool to recruit and motivate others to commit acts of terror. It's gonna be a long war.
Who'll stop the ChristianoFascists then? And who'll stop the use of politics/oil to recruit and motivate others to commit acts of colonization?

Why do I run into people who push the "Science in the Qur'an" and then seem dishonest?

Sup?:confused:

How many times does "sockpuppet" appear in the Koran? 0? That's the same number of [something that has no importance to anything]. Amazing!
If you don't find that the ratio between the words meaning land and sea mentioned in the Qor'an matched the ratio of land to sea on earth (13 to 32 times, respectively), then you do have a problem! This, among other things of course.. otherwise I'd call it "a very strange coinsidence"



Did anyone watch Canadian Bacon??
Anyway, "terrorist" is the modern word for "resistor" in my opinion (I don't know if Hitler called the French resistence funny names like "insurgents", anybody knows?)
 
Consider the actions of so-called "fundamentalist" or "militant" Christians who bombed abortion clinics and murdered doctors operating there.

Terrorism would be a lot less unnerving to the masses if it wasn't accompanied by the image of dark haired, long bearded, sword-wielding Arabs about to behead some so-called "infidel".

It also deserves noting that the number of people killed by terrorism is almost negligible when compared with any other cause of death. You're more likely to die in a car accident, plane crash or one of thousands of other ways than in a terrorist attack.

Ah, now I remember why I voted for "Our Great Leader" the second time. We are fighting people who tend to be disturbingly creative with a power drill. The problem was that Bush doesn't seem to know who the enemy really is, but I thought the Democrat who went against him was even more clueless (at least he campaigned that way).

All of these sick terrorist acts must be fought at every turn, but our President's tactics have been to basically try to burn down the house to catch a snake ("We'll smoke 'em out eventually. More kerosene!"). Bush blew his chance and now it's time for a Democrat. Looking at what Bush has done with my vote has even made the Senator from New York look like a better choice.
 
Did anybody here have the imagination to answer the question "why didn't terrorists attack Norway, Iceland, NewZealand, China, Zimbabwe, Brazil, Canada"? Just to name a few examples of "christians", not to mention Christian minorities living in the terro, I mean Islamic countries for centuries?
Muslim terrorists have tried striking Canada. They were just stupid.
Not you, stacmon. You seem very honest. Stacmon's writing style indicated that he was Muslim, when earlier he had denied that he was. He has since assured me that he is not, that I misinterpreted his writings, and I've chosen to believe him. Hell, it's not like I've never written something unclearly!

But, like I say elsewhere, I've run across a LOT of intentional dishonesty from people pushing that site. I certainly don't include you in that category, and I don't include Stacmon either.
If you don't find that the ratio between the words meaning land and sea mentioned in the Qor'an matched the ratio of land to sea on earth (13 to 32 times, respectively), then you do have a problem! This, among other things of course.. otherwise I'd call it "a very strange coinsidence"
How does that compare to words mentioning space or the stars? The ratio breaks down then, doesn't it? It's amazing that people exclude the false positive.
 
If you don't find that the ratio between the words meaning land and sea mentioned in the Qor'an matched the ratio of land to sea on earth (13 to 32 times, respectively), then you do have a problem! This, among other things of course.. otherwise I'd call it "a very strange coinsidence"

The number of times "Allah" shows up in the Koran is 300. Isn't that the name of a popular movie in the US these days? It is! Holy moley, the Koran predicted the movie 300!
 
When America deals with the real causes of terrorism and not just use violence.Military action will only create more terrorism.

That statement is so true.

I'm about to make a statement that if I were to say outloud here in SoCal, I would get mamed or murdered for it as a consequence:

The war on terror is not beatable, nor is it a struggle between good vs evil. Invading other countries only encourages terrorism, and US foreign policy is far from being omnipotent. The reason terrorists exist is not because they hate our freedom, its because they hate our foreign policy. I am not trying to justify terrorism, but that is why they do what they do. They are at war with Western Society do to previous western imperialism. One major reason the middle-east remained backwards and uncivilized is that western powers devided countries without thinking of the consequences. They mixed different ethnic and religous groups together, which lead to a constant state of civil war and unrest. This is why they are backwards, and why they are violent. Recent American foreign policy in the middle east has attracted them to the US. The US is not a victim in this circumstance. The only victims here are the people in the towers who had nothing to do with this, which was most of them. Besides, much worse things are happening to people around the world.

To be honest, war never was a struggle between good vs evil to begin with. In fact, there is no such thing as a struggle between good vs evil, especially since both sides consider themselves good most of the time. Good vs Evil is nothing but a point of view.
 
How do you know when we've won the war on terror?

Once the Islamic fundamentalists are wiped out (or small in numbers) or are unable to attack the USA or its allies in any meaningful capacity.

Frankly the same way you know when you win any war.



Many of you keep saying 'terror' this 'terrorism' that. We aren't fighting an emotion. We are fighting a group of people. Like the Nazis. Like the communists. They are called islamic fundamentalists. Or extremists. We need a catchy name for them. Their means of attack is 'terrorism'. We are not fighting their means of attack. We are fighting THEM. They are a well defined sect of people. Yes they hide, yes they use propaganda. But a Nazi german could pose as a freedom loving democrat the same way as an Muslim extremist can act as a moderate. We are fighting the GROUP OF PEOPLE. Groups of people fight wars. Ideas do not. We can win because we are fighting a group.

Will we win is a whole different question. But we can win, just like anyone can win any war.

*It is Bush's fault for defining this war in such a poor manner. If he would have skipped the whole 'war on terror' deal and stuck with war against islamofascists/extremists/etc then it would be much more easily understood.


Many of you also fall into the same problem of saying if we attack they are going to grow in numbers. Can't you say that with any war?

"If we attack germany in WW2 doesn't that mean more Germans will fight us?"
 
Once the Islamic fundamentalists are wiped out (or small in numbers) or are unable to attack the USA or its allies in any meaningful capacity.

Frankly the same way you know when you win any war.

Why do they have to be Islamic Fundamentalists? Should we not aim for all terrorists, no matter of race or religion?
 
"If we attack germany in WW2 doesn't that mean more Germans will fight us?"

Once can quite easily go from moderate muslim to radical islamist under idelogically-warping duress, while I'm hard-pressed to remember the point at which Russians were magically becoming teutonically blond.
 
centurion said:
Unlike the previous clashes between the West and Fascism and the West and Communism which were largely political and economic, the primary focus of this war is religion, or at least perceived religion, in reality many westerners are christian only in tradition,
so, germany, italy, spain, austria are not western? not to mention the fascist movements all around western europe? [eg oswald mosley, eoin o`duffy, vidkun quisling, and petain]
 
The number of times "Allah" shows up in the Koran is 300. Isn't that the name of a popular movie in the US these days? It is! Holy moley, the Koran predicted the movie 300!

Very funny, it's not even 300 :rolleyes:


Muslim terrorists have tried striking Canada. They were just stupid.
Sure sure, but the Canadians were smart sending their troops to Afghanistan :lol:

How does that compare to words mentioning space or the stars? The ratio breaks down then, doesn't it? It's amazing that people exclude the false positive.
The word "space" (in Arabic) has never been mentioned in the Qor'an anyway, where exactly are you getting your info from? And what about the stars? (next he's gonna say: since "space" isn't mentioned, that means the Qor'an says space doesn't exist! :crazyeye:)
 
Osama and his employer of course, namely George Bush :lol:

]
Do not feed the troll

Just make sure you include all known terorists ;)

When has Bush commited terorism? Never.

I'll never stop wondering how can people believe such nonsense

I ponder if it is not obvious to all who this truly applies to?

And who'll stop the use of politics/oil to recruit and motivate others to commit acts of colonization?

Prove we invaded Iraq for oil. You can't.
 
Do not feed the troll
You just did ;)


When has Bush commited terorism? Never.
Invading 2 countries with all that it takes from bombing/detaining/killing isn't terrorism? Then what is? Resisting foreign occupation??

I ponder if it is not obvious to all who this truly applies to?
Have you seen videos or read articles about how 9/11 couldn't have been what it has been said to be? Like "dissecting" the body which struck the pentagon, or analzying the way the towers fell? I also like to remind you that directly after the attacks, Taliban announced that they'd surrender Osama if the Americans showed their "crystal-clear proofs" that he did them.

Prove we invaded Iraq for oil. You can't.
Well, I can't prove the sky is blue either. But I can tell you one thing: If Bush (or Cheney, since Bush is just a puppet, and I sometimes sympathize with someone that stupid), believed Iraq had WMDs, he would've never ever dared to approach them with military actoin; just like North Korea.
 
You just did ;)



Invading 2 countries with all that it takes from bombing/detaining/killing isn't terrorism? Then what is? Resisting foreign occupation??

I somewhat agree. After all we did say to saddam, surrender yourself or we will invade! But it still doesnt fit the definition of terrorism. If it does then blackmail would be considered terrorism.

Have you seen videos or read articles about how 9/11 couldn't have been what it has been said to be? Like "dissecting" the body which struck the pentagon, or analzying the way the towers fell? I also like to remind you that directly after the attacks, Taliban announced that they'd surrender Osama if the Americans showed their "crystal-clear proofs" that he did them.

Please elaborate. What conspiracy theory are you buying about the 9/11 tragedy? I hope your not going to say it was a hoax... Oh brother.

Well, I can't prove the sky is blue either. But I can tell you one thing: If Bush (or Cheney, since Bush is just a puppet, and I sometimes sympathize with someone that stupid), believed Iraq had WMDs, he would've never ever dared to approach them with military actoin; just like North Korea.
1. Never trust an idiot in control with one of the most powerful countries on the planet.

2. I can see you beileve everything you hear. Because I have seen no evidence Bush is a mindless puppet who does whatever cheney tells him. Way to buy into the popular misconception of who runs this country. :rolleyes:
 
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