The European Project: the future of the EU.

[Kyriakos]

We are only 17 million people living in "ons kikkerlandje" (translated "our small frog country").
One of my first lessons at primary school describing the medieval period was about the poor serfs poking at nights with poles in the canals to prevent the frogs from making their loud noises, so that the nobility in the castle could sleep.

Ok, but don't fill up the page with stuff that isn't against Turkey

Anyway, now it's on the previous page
Thankfully CFC doesn't matter, so I will get back to posting randomly at other threads.

 

[local_hero]

We are only 17 million people living in "ons kikkerlandje" (translated "our small frog country").
One of my first lessons at primary school describing the medieval period was about the poor serfs poking at nights with poles in the canals to prevent the frogs from making their loud noises, so that the nobility in the castle could sleep.

This is worthy of a post in the Today I learned thread.

 

[Kyriakos]

^If this is a serial thread, I think you can start the new one (not sure if this should be a serial thread, tbh; it took almost two years to get to #1000).

 

[Hrothbern]

Ok, but don't fill up the page with stuff that isn't against Turkey

Anyway, now it's on the previous page
Thankfully CFC doesn't matter, so I will get back to posting randomly at other threads.

Well
In that case I add something on Erdogan
I did read an analysis today on Erdogan (incl all his vocal and other more military interventions everywhere), the Lira, the already 55% foreign money withdrawn from Turkey, the foreign reserves empty, the S-400 Russian rocket system, the NATO, and the impact of that all on the Lira and the economy when not Trump but Biden would become POTUS.
Erdogan is like a cornered cat.

 

[Hrothbern]

^If this is a serial thread, I think you can start the new one (not sure if this should be a serial thread, tbh; it took almost two years to get to #1000).

Up to the moderators.
I am fine as it is.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well
In that case I add something on Erdogan
I did read an analysis today on Erdogan (incl all his vocal and other more military interventions everywhere), the Lira, the already 55% foreign money withdrawn from Turkey, the S-400 Russian rocket system, the NATO, and the impact of that all when not Trump but Biden would become POTUS.
Erdogan is like a cornered cat.

Erdogan isn't pursuing a different policy to what will be pursued by his successors. At least he is loudmouthed enough to bring attention to what that policy is. Anyway - enough Turkey for one day, I am stuffed

 

[Kyriakos]

News from Eugoslavia:

-Hungary and Poland veto the Eu budget
-Bulgaria vetos Fyronm/Ffyrom (stops its candidate status to the Eu), on grounds of not accepting its language as "macedonian" but as a dialect of bulgarian.
Not to worry, though, cause mighty Albania is still a candidate state.

 

[Sofista]

-Bulgaria vetos Fyronm/Ffyrom (stops its candidate status to the Eu), on grounds of not accepting its language as "macedonian" but as a dialect of bulgarian.
Not to worry, though, cause mighty Albania is still a candidate state.

Remember the times when to get a vassal state you had to defeat it? Those were the days! Now they line at the door to volunteer!

 

[Hrothbern]

News from Eugoslavia:

-Hungary and Poland veto the Eu budget
-Bulgaria vetos Fyronm/Ffyrom (stops its candidate status to the Eu), on grounds of not accepting its language as "macedonian" but as a dialect of bulgarian.
Not to worry, though, cause mighty Albania is still a candidate state.

“the Balkans produces more history than it can consume.”
perhaps there is a general truth there for regions-nations-etnic groups... that together with tribal identity chieftains for some benefit of their own.... scars, being scratched open all the time, get no time to heal.

It is often said that Winston Churchill believed that “the Balkans produces more history than it can consume.”
Besides the fact that this quote is incorrectly attributed to him, and that it was originally made in reference to Crete, it nevertheless resonates very well with all those involved in the promotion of responsible history education in this region. There is a visible difficulty for the established public and political cultures to refrain from using historical interpretations and concepts as divisive tools, or worse – using history as a weapon. But, what does it actually mean when a society ‘consumes’ history? And if we acknowledge that ’dealing with the past’, ’facing history’, ’overcoming’ and so on entail the proper ‘consumption’ of the past, which history should be dealt with, by whom and how?

On 18 December 2017 EuroClio will be opening the debate on these difficult questions by organising the one-day conference How Can Europe Help the Balkans Consume its History? , hosted by the House of European History in Brussels. This day event will be organised by (EuroClio) and the Centre for Democracy and Reconciliation in South East Europe (CDRSEE), in partnership with the International Students of History Association (ISHA).

The conference envisages lively debates with selected international guests reflecting the most pressing issues and challenges related to history education in the region. We expect to have thoughtful conversations about the reality of teaching sensitive history and the needs of the teachers which are faced with such a challenge. The discussions will be based on new research that was presented in the joint position paper on how to deal with the 1990s Yugoslav Wars in the classroom and the collected evidence base with needs for educational transformation.

 

[Hrothbern]

-Hungary and Poland veto the Eu budget

Perhaps it would be more fitting to say that the incumbent Barons of Hungary and Poland veto the EU budget.
The populace of Hungary and Poland have quite another opinion according to article below.

Will be interesting to see how the Barons are gonna maneuver between all the cliffs to safe their skins.
I hope they make such a fool of themselves that they go down the drain like Trump and in a couple of years the BoJo gang.

Poland and Hungary are standing firm, Brussels too
The governments of Poland and Hungary are trying to veto the EU budget and the recovery package to get the European rule of law mechanism off the table. But their position is unpopular domestically, and the European Parliament will not tolerate any concessions towards the two countries.

We cannot do anything without European support - that message came from Polish municipalities on Tuesday. That day they held a protest rally against the blockade of the EU budget by the right-wing conservative government. To reinforce their rejection, they all decided to turn off the lights for a while at 5:00 PM on December 1. Without EU money we will be left in the dark, the council representatives said.
"Thanks to Europe, we have improved our water and sewage management," quoted news site Onet Elzbieta Radwan, the mayor of Wolomin, a small town northeast of Warsaw. Wolomin was able to invest in education through EU subsidies, which was good when more online lessons were needed due to the corona virus. How can I deny the citizens of Wolomin EU money? Radwan wondered at the meeting.
The Polish mayors also point out that the income for municipalities has fallen sharply due to the crisis. So EU funds would be useful.

Poland blames Mark Rutte
For the time being, Poland and Hungary are harnessed in the conflict with the EU. Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki and his Hungarian counterpart 'Viktator' Orbán reaffirmed their veto on the budget on Thursday after bilateral consultations.
Poland blames Prime Minister Mark Rutte for the controversy. "He is clearly the leader in the allegations against Poland and Hungary," Polish State Secretary for Foreign Affairs Pawel Jablonski told Danish financial newspaper Børsen on Thursday. "When someone says openly that he is not compromising, it is difficult to negotiate."
That Poland also does not feel like negotiating, also became clear on Wednesday. Polish Minister of Justice Zbigniew Ziobro said that the government "must act hard to promote Poland's interests". He has presented plans for new reforms of the Polish judiciary. Previous interventions brought Warsaw into conflict with the EU.

Opinion polls show that over 70% of Poles do accept the rule of law mechanism that is contested by the government. This instrument can lead to a member state losing out on EU money if the government violates the rule of law. Poland, which has critical judges prosecuted, is therefore vulnerable.
There is also broad support for the mechanism in Hungary, according to surveys, although this country would also risk seizing alongside EU subsidies. In Hungary, for example, media freedom and the rights of minorities are under pressure. The country records by far the most irregularities in the use of European funds.

Hungarian opposition: Orbán is a Trojan horse
MEPs from Hungarian opposition parties stated in an opinion article in Die Zeit on Monday that the EU should not give in to Orbán's veto. According to them, that would be a mistake that could lead to the disintegration of the EU.
According to MEPs, Orbán acts as "a Trojan horse for autocratic rulers in Eastern Europe." With Orbán, we are once again dealing with a violent and crafty dictator who is abusing his political power and using EU money to enrich his own family, while tearing down democracy and flouting European values. '

German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas said on Tuesday that current EU president Germany is in the final negotiations to settle the quarrel with Poland and Hungary. Budget Commissioner Johannes Hahn argued that at most a little clarification is needed of how the rule of law mechanism works exactly. But diplomatic sources do not expect a deal in the short term and Chancellor Angela Merkel already spoke of 'a serious issue' and 'difficult times'.

According to observers, the countries are also trying to get rid of the so-called Article 7 procedure with their veto. This procedure, launched against Poland in late 2017 and against Hungary in 2018 for violating the rule of law principles, could lead to a Member State losing its right to vote in the EU.

"In any case, Orbán wants that procedure to be dropped," said analyst Piotr Buras of the ECFR think tank in Warsaw. It is true that the support of Poland prevents Hungary from actually withdrawing the right to vote (and vice versa), but that the sanction and suspicion are always hanging over governments is vexing for Budapest and Warsaw.
The end of the proceedings could persuade Hungary and Poland to give up their veto, analysts think. Manfred Weber, leader of the Christian Democratic EPP group in the European Parliament (EP), alluded to it last week.

'Discontinuation of proceedings is a fatal mistake'
But those proceedings should continue, says Daniel Hegedüs of the German Marshall Fund think tank in Berlin. "To strike would be a fatal mistake and would rehabilitate Poland and Hungary," he said this week. 'That would send the signal that there is nothing wrong with the rule of law in those countries. The opposite is true.' The symbolic value of the procedures is very important, Hegedüs emphasizes. But the procedures also mean that the EU can exert political pressure on Poland and Hungary. At the moment, there is not even enough support to admonish the two countries in the European Council of 27 member states, the analyst said, notwithstanding the withdrawal of the right to vote. But the political situation in the member states can change, says Hegedüs. 'If the EU does stop these procedures, it would deepen the conflict between the EU Member States and the EP over the course of events. Parliament can simply start that procedure again. '

'They themselves act like despots'
In the European Parliament, a strong supporter and co-legislator of the new rule of law mechanism, there were few supporters on Wednesday for concessions towards Budapest and Warsaw to break the deadlock over the budget and the corona recovery. "Parliament is not taking any steps back," said EPP chief Manfred Weber. Like President Ursula von der Leyen of the European Commission, he said that countries should only go to the EU Court of Justice if they disagree with the sanction tool, including the Social Democratic S&D group and the Liberals of Renew. said to keep the paw stiff.
"It is ridiculous to compare the EU to the Soviet Union," said Renew leader Dacian Cioloș, referring to Orbán's statements. 'They themselves behave like despots. And I should know, because I grew up in Romania.
'Tineke Strik (GroenLinks) warned against a compromise on the rule of law mechanism. "Then the European Council is making a historic mistake," said Strik. 'Because then you allow yourself to be bribed, no in fact extorted.' Polish former Prime Minister Beata Szydlo, now a MEP in the conservative ECR group, argued that the rule of law mechanism is contrary to European treaties.
Derk Jan Eppink of the imploding Forum for Democracy [extreme rightwing] supports Poland and Hungary. "Something is wrong everywhere," he said.

https://fd.nl/economie-politiek/1365485/polen-en-hongarije-houden-voet-bij-stuk-brussel-ook

 

[Kyriakos]

I am confused, you mean democracy will win? But then the Eu loses, so can't work."All Eu institutions are democratic", ala "all cretans are liars".

 

[Hrothbern]

I cam confused, you mean democracy will win? But then the Eu loses, so can't work."All Eu institutions are democratic", ala "all cretans are liars".

If democracy wins in all the European countries...
... if all these countries have from theirselves adequate human rights, rule of law, freedom of press, etc... the EU does not need to police or meddle in such affairs and can focus on trade-economy, shared standards for production, shared access to countries for EU citizens.
This is BTW arranged in the contract you sign up to when you join the EU.
But some countries some incumbent Barons of countries have apparently no issue to break essential clauses of the contracts they signed up to.

Oh
as long as the EU countries are democratic, the EU cannot be democratic in the direct sense of the word.
When the EU would be democratic, the countries cannot be any longer democratic.
The EU is a treaty, just like the NATO...only another field of topics.

 

[Kyriakos]

When Stavrongin believes, he doesn't believe he believes. When he doesn't believe, he doesn't believe he doesn't believe.
But Hroth always believes in the Eu.

 

[Hrothbern]

When Stavrongin believes, he doesn't believe he believes. When he doesn't believe, he doesn't believe he doesn't believe.
But Hroth always believes in the Eu.

Yeah
And here in NL I make mostly posts against the arguments of the for now small flock who have a romantic belief in a USE
(Nexit has no chance anyway... unless too many start beating the drums too hard on a USE)

Stavongrin... the demons of the Tree of Knowledge... Hail to Luddism and Faith.... that puts me back to secondary school time in my mind... when some people still believed they could get me more civilised than authentic.

 

[Hrothbern]

Here a bread & butter pro-EU post on agricultural chemical poisoning of our environmernt where borders do not exist and therefore needing supra-national solutions where a EU can set standards for the good of all.
The nasty thing about many pollutants is that they are travelling really long distances, just like micro plastics found from the top of the Himalaya to the deepest abysses in the oceans.
Because dealing with pollutants means higher production cost, unilateral actions per country face huge hurdles. The "democratic" hurdles of the farmer's lobbies and adjacent industry piping the same tune at different entries into governments.
And yes... it is tough and Big Corporate resilient in the EU as well... but at unilateral or bilateral level almost nothing would happen. Chickened politicians with farmers telling them that farmers in "foreign" other countries get their business.
The authentic weather worn faced farmer and all that the juicy PR vehicle for the newsmedia threatening politician's selfpreservation.

Here an article with observations on Dutch soil from a German-Dutch initiative that started with counting insects... where the hell have our insects gone ?

Nature is full of agricultural poisons. The cocktails that researchers find in nature reserves do not only come from farmers in the area, some substances may be old remains of insect repellent DDT, or blown over from far beyond Europe.

Pesticides associated with the sharp decline in insects have now settled in many places in nature. After the discovery of agricultural poisons this spring in eight protected nature reserves in Drenthe, researchers also found poison cocktails containing dozens of substances in fourteen nature reserves in Gelderland. Research in Germany to be published soon yielded comparable results.
“There are no significant differences”, says Jelmer Buijs, independent agricultural researcher from Bennekom and project leader of both the Gelderland and German research. “One substance is more common and the other a little less, but the picture in all those nature reserves is the same. The nature reserves are on an inclined plane. ”
One of the substances found is permethrin, an extremely strong insecticide. "That we find that is telling about the state of nature."

Insecticides, fungicides and a weed killer
Three years ago, Dutch-German research showed that the amount of insects in Europe has decreased by three-quarters since 1990. This has major consequences for the populations of birds and other insectivores and therefore for biodiversity.
Buijs and co-researcher Margriet Mantingh published research eighteen months ago in which they had found 134 pesticides in soil, manure and concentrates on 25 Gelderland farms, including some organic ones. They used the dung beetle as an indicator: the more agricultural poison, the fewer beetles there were. The new research in Gelderland is a follow-up to this.
The researchers are looking at the presence of 664 substances. Of these, 34 were found in samples taken last year from soil, plants and manure from large grazers from the Gelderland nature reserves. It mainly concerns insecticides, but there are also fungicides and a weed killer among them. Half of the substances found are carcinogenic and 42 percent endocrine disrupting in mammals. Here too Buijs and Mantingh found fewer dung beetles where the amount of poison was higher.

The poison travels through river water and the wind
Because no pesticides are used in nature reserves and on the large grazers living there, it is likely that the toxins were transported by air, as previously shown in foreign research. In some places resources are found that originate from earlier use or have been brought in by flooding with polluted river water. Also in Drenthe it became clear that some toxins must have traveled many kilometers.
Some of the found substances are not (anymore) used in Europe. “One of the insecticides, cyenopyraphs, is only used in China and Japan and must have been used illegally or blown over from East Asia. Research in Sweden has already shown that various insecticides that are banned in Europe, such as lindane and endosulfan, were nevertheless found in the air in practically the same concentration all year round. ”

But the majority of the funds do come from Europe, says Buijs. "So you have to address the use of pesticides here if you are serious about the loss of insect fauna and biodiversity."

The researchers also found other toxins in the flood plains at Loevestein Castle, Loowaard near Arnhem and Millingerwaard. After dioxin and PCBs were found this summer in wilderness meat from cattle grazing near Loevestein, they examined three of their own soil samples. “We found the same substances in the same concentration, except for samples from flood plains that had been excavated due to conservation measures. That poison is probably already entering the country at Lobith. We expect much more to be below ground level. But this does not fall under the pesticides, so it was by-catch for us. ”

https://www.trouw.nl/duurzaamheid-n...-zit-gif-en-het-komt-overal-vandaan~bc296557/

This picture in the spoiler... it looks all very natural... right ?
Well... it is not anymore if you go in the lost biodiversity and amount of small organisms

Spoiler spoiler :

 

[innonimatu]

What the governments of Hungary and Poland are doing is opposing a power grab from Brussels: new rules attached as strings, riders, to this budget.

The budge can easly be passed without those new rules attached. The issue is not passing the budget, it's the power grab being done now.

Here a bread & butter pro-EU post on agricultural chemical poisoning of our environmernt where borders do not exist and therefore needing supra-national solutions where a EU can set standards for the good of all.
The nasty thing about many pollutants is that they are travelling really long distances, just like micro plastics found from the top of the Himalaya to the deepest abysses in the oceans.
Because dealing with pollutants means higher production cost, unilateral actions per country face huge hurdles. The "democratic" hurdles of the farmer's lobbies and adjacent industry piping the same tune at different entries into governments.
And yes... it is tough and Big Corporate resilient in the EU as well... but at unilateral or bilateral level almost nothing would happen. Chickened politicians with farmers telling them that farmers in "foreign" other countries get their business.
The authentic weather worn faced farmer and all that the juicy PR vehicle for the newsmedia threatening politician's selfpreservation.

That is a direct and inevitable result of the neoliberal trade policy pursued by the EU.

It specially undermines the creation and enforcement of national rules, as then those forced to follow the rules are at a disadvantage with foreign competitors. The national problems with national solutions, which are workable, are then politically metamorphosed into "international problems" with lots of summits and hand-wriggling and pompous declarations - and no practical and timely solutions.

 

[Hrothbern]

It specially undermines the creation and enforcement of national rules, as then those forced to follow the rules are at a disadvantage with foreign competitors. The national problems with national solutions, which are workable, are then politically metamorphosed into "international problems" with lots of summits and hand-wriggling and pompous declarations - and no practical and timely solutions.

You can make your country into a fortress where competition from companies from other countries on your domestic market is brought under national control.
I think we do not disagree there.
But this would imo reduce the level of prosperity very much and will lead at the end of the day to the situation where those walls around your country must prevent as well that your citizens will migrate to countries who do work together.
A bit like the DDR.
In Medieval time there was competition between towns, later on competition between regions & towns, later on competition between nations & regions & towns, and now we are going to competition between big nations and trading blocs & nations & regions & towns. Big Corporate the last version of the expeditionary non-military troops, the final successors of the caravan traders and dows of the medieval past.

Where we disagree is that I believe that we are better off with rules protecting the weak (people-towns-regions-nations-blocs) and yes a struggle indeed to make progress for a more fair distribution..
Growing the pancake and struggling to get it more equally divided... but because the pancake grows enough... all the time a growing piece for everyone.

 

[Kyriakos]

Supposedly Amazon is looking to create a large depot in Greece.
It would be good for me, given hopefully it will mean less mail costs (that is assuming they bother to preemptively move stuff I buy here).

 

[innonimatu]

You can make your country into a fortress where competition from companies from other countries on your domestic market is brought under national control.
I think we do not disagree there.
But this would imo reduce the level of prosperity very much and will lead at the end of the day to the situation where those walls around your country must prevent as well that your citizens will migrate to countries who do work together.
A bit like the DDR.

It's not a either/or. Take you DDR example. At the time all the western european countries had their own national regulations and regulators. They were not the DDR, and they traded (and so did the DDT anyway). Now many have dropped the regulators, lost the ability to even verify if regulations are being followed, and also abandoned national regulatory powers.

Having all those things does not mean isolationism. ever did, and the proof is that many countries keep those things and are among the ones with the most international trade. Take, for 3 examples: Japan, Taiwan and South Korea. And neither are huge huge countries either.

 

[Wastl]

What the governments of Hungary and Poland are doing is opposing a power grab from Brussels: new rules attached as strings, riders, to this budget.

The budge can easly be passed without those new rules attached. The issue is not passing the budget, it's the power grab being done now.

That is a direct and inevitable result of the neoliberal trade policy pursued by the EU.

It specially undermines the creation and enforcement of national rules, as then those forced to follow the rules are at a disadvantage with foreign competitors. The national problems with national solutions, which are workable, are then politically metamorphosed into "international problems" with lots of summits and hand-wriggling and pompous declarations - and no practical and timely solutions.

Nice try, but once again completely disconnected from reality...

The Polish and the Hungarian government have undermined democracy in their own country for quite a long time, and violated quite a few EU-rules in the process. They, just like the UK, do not get to demand getting EU-money while rejecting everything that contradicts their views. That's not how the EU works, that's not how democracy works. Want to get all that shiny EU-money? Then act like a proper democratic government. If you prefer personal power, take a hike and leave the EU. There's already more than enough generic corruption going on, no need to tolerate those who actively try to increase it. But of course neither government would do that, because they are much too cowardly for that, way to interested in enriching themselves, and love to have their cake and eat it, too.

This isn't a "power grab" by the EU, this is the EU finally doing what it should have done a very long time ago: reprimant those who a) misuse the EU to enrich themselves, b) undermine democracy to enlarge or uphold their power, c) actively try to raise corruption.