The European Project: the future of the EU.

so , am filled with this urge to have an "offensive" post ...

Spoiler :


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no , nothing against the Canadians , as ı will have Canadians to attest to . Merely an indication of how politeness or even this famous soft spoken with a big stick thing does NOT work .

the US never left the Middle East and the concern is China . Growing ever since it started growing and not following the Japanese example . Which conciously avoided being "creative" and spent so much effort to stay one step behind America . The Japanese F-16 costed double the American version , being a fatter one because the Japanese could not have tankers as that would have been a reason for concern in the Far East . Or 3 times of the Agile Falcon thing had it been adopted by the USAF . Or 10 times with adjusted inflation values or not if the Japanese had bought Vought's F-16 inspired model with the B-1's engine in the Seventies . Japan "knew" its place , China doesn't and will not . Conquest by all knowing Dabya and Halliburton's Cheney would clear all the issues in the Middle East and glory and what not . Do not get bored by the repetition , because it happens to be the truth . A Kurdish Nation State and the bloodbath required for it would kill so many people in the Middle East that there would be no more problems .

dabya's Mission Accomplished created so many issues , without disrespecting the people who lost them , the 4500 or 5000 dead Americans do not count for anything in "American eyes" . But for the voting trends they could cause . Obama came with a promise , that he would disengage and go to Cold War with China . Meaning the killing on the ground to be left to America's best friends , namely all sorts of jihadist beardies and the EU . America had no issues with carrying out 60% of the bombing sorties over Libya , Europeans strong enough to fight on their own would not respect America as well .. Syria and the decisive lack of action observed turned it into a long term attrition battle to kill the Shia , as American servicemen might have heard it explained as a not-a-defeat . lt simply brought Russians into Cold War 2.0 . Georgia 2008 and Ukraine 2014 are gross American mistakes , but then do they know any better ?

uh , the Trump era was funny .

it is like a Shark , "modern" states "can't" stay still , they have to hunt and eat others . Because expansion can not take place against the Chinese , who are busy expanding themselves after discovering the 21st Century America is quite the paper tiger and Russians are doing a nice show of acting like they are strong , it has to be into lesser zones and weaker opponents . The guy who said it first in this thread might not be conciously aware of it or whatever but it's not his idea at first and secondly it is in action for a long time by now . The entire Brexit fracas or the current thing of Anglosaxon "spies" of Poland and Hungary trying to weaken the EU or New Turkey's nonstop glories against the said bunch of weaklings is to weaken the Europeans enough to make people buy their security from the Anglosaxons . You know , am not a genius that discovers everything on his own either , we are invariably shaped by the Media ...

2016-7 and onwards have been problematical for me in places . Well , nothing new under the sun , because my internet fame and whatnot involve telling Lockmart , circa 2008-9 , that they could keep their wonder to themselves and the money already spent but "we" would not be buying the F-35 . Was never told why but following the scenery ı have come to guess it was more than a kill-switch but a way to actually kill people , even workable inside an hardened shelter . Nation-specific , too ... Quickly banned after trying to tell Americans that they might not be as smart as they imagined . Then of course , Lockmart somehow decided that ı would be forgiven if they succeeded with Fusion .

the 2016-7 and beyond of r16 troubles needs that background . New Turkey is all about talking but people who make it have their own desires . Atatürk , the founder of the Republic , was very air-minded ; destroying the Republic involves winning the elections , which involves proof on how New Turkey so heroically outperforms the Republic . A week or so ago , a MP in a Parliamentary commission really implied that there were "no" cars in the country when A-K-P won the elections in 2002 (just like fridges in the kitchens) ... All that wealth is only due to New Turkey . Every speech is being written down in the Parliament , as ı imagine it to be a global standart . lt was discovered the records lacked this glorious statement , so a parliamentary investigation took place and tapes were listened to . Turns out the top official for records had "fixed" it . He resigned , nobody expects him to suffer as New Turkey holds everything , there is no punishment for lies .

feeling lost ? Am not . See , the problems tend to happen "inside" . Some famous family from the Black Sea , one "cousin" was the Leftist Mayor of lstanbul in 1970s(?) , one "cousin" was second-in-command of a funny Right Wing party , a lot of "cousins" in the so called flag carrier of the country , because when it suits them New Turkey always refuses to share the outcome of national efforts . Because everybody except them is a traitor . So , this "cousin" running the plane company in Ankara wants to be remembered as a guy who did more things than having a camel sacrificed by the runway . (Which turns out to be a long running thing , the now dead Turkish Air Force would have a ram processed this way each year , like a superstition or whatever but New Turkey so badly wants to become Arabs) A national combat aircraft would do nicely . Yours idiotly naturally opposed this , because it wouldn't be "national" if it was for Qatar , because everybody knows Qatar calls the shots in New Turkey . Considering Americans opted not to have the "Turkish" roundel on the F-35s because it is also used by the Peruvians due some reason , this r16 interference might not have been welcome . ı said as much , that it was on the same level with sexual lust , flying a jet on the 100th anniversary of the Republic , 2023 always openly talked about as the date of the final end of the Republic . There was a thing that happened . Because of the bad translations locals would assume all this post involves them , it doesn't refer to them at all . Anyhow ı also said the UK knew what happened , who did it and took no action because they wanted the plunder ... THAT caused an open season of sorts on r16 across forums .

of course everybody expects it to be natural , being company trolls and all that . ı haven't retracted anything . So , the latest happenz like thiz ...

umhh , 02:34 in the morning , maybe ı should go to sleep . Another curse of the Coronavirus , this rant would have been written in the laptop and checked and corrected and rechecked over two days and taken to the webcafe in an USB . Lockdowns and tablet makes it harder !

 
I can never figure out where you fall on the political/economic spectrum. Creating an Anglo-sphere or NAFTA, ala FREE TRADE... allows for increased multiculturalism, spreads ideas and wealth to the vast areas within the sphere, and on a macro-level stops wars. If we were to have the commonwealth with a few additions the resources, ideas, technologies, and multiculturalism would spread to every region and thereby benefit the whole.
I mean, I'm kinda picking here (it's late), but conceptually an "Anglo-sphere" seems inherently at odds with "increased multiculturalism" and the spreading of ideas. Especially one actioned by even stricter immigration controls than we currently have (which is the Conservative's ideal - to make them more restrictive).
 
Nice move by Merkel (who hopefully will gtfo soon, not that I expect anything different to replace her) to give into Hungary and Poland.
I wonder what they got in return - and I doubt they will be fined next year either; it's just kicking the can one year away, like the Eu knows to do.
 
Nice move by Merkel (who hopefully will gtfo soon, not that I expect anything different to replace her) to give into Hungary and Poland.
I wonder what they got in return - and I doubt they will be fined next year either; it's just kicking the can one year away, like the Eu knows to do.
We'll see when the whole thing goes on the table for discussion later in the week.

So far the word is that the EC Court of Justice will first have to make a ruling in whether suspending EU subsidies over something like breeches of the democratic principles of the union is legal. Apparently there might be a Hungarian claim this is a concession, but competing claims it is part of a normal process. No one seems to be claiming having the ECJ vet it is a bad idea so far.

Aside from that there seems to be an actual concession in the form that there will be no automatic legal mechanisms for pulling EU subsidies over breeches – i.e. the Polish and Hungarian governments has accepted the suggestion that the will be a political process in the sense that any such move must first be broached in session of the European Council, i.e. in meeting between the political leaderships of the 27 members states. That allows Orban et al. both a seat at the table and a say in the discussions. Possibly, probably, they assume they might be able to sway enough other EU states to at least stop any kind of suspension by creating political gridlock between governments.
 
Aside from that there seems to be an actual concession in the form that there will be no automatic legal mechanisms for pulling EU subsidies over breeches – i.e. the Polish and Hungarian governments has accepted the suggestion that the will be a political process in the sense that any such move must first be broached in session of the European Council, i.e. in meeting between the political leaderships of the 27 members states. That allows Orban et al. both a seat at the table and a say in the discussions. Possibly, probably, they assume they might be able to sway enough other EU states to at least stop any kind of suspension by creating political gridlock between governments.

This might be good actually. The more often EU countries are at each other's throats constantly for a bigger slice of the fund (excluding another leaves more), the better to dismantle the monster soon.Patience wears out, the alleged benefits of the EU vanish, more exits.

Changing that process form once every few years to something that goes on constantly - great idea!
 
This might be good actually. The more often EU countries are at each other's throats constantly for a bigger slice of the fund (excluding another leaves more), the better to dismantle the monster soon.Patience wears out, the alleged benefits of the EU vanish, more exits.

Changing that process form once every few years to something that goes on constantly - great idea!
God forbid politics should actually matter... never mind principles.

Orban etc. thinks a mechanism for political haggling might favour them – or at least give them a fighting chance compared to more administrative approach to triggering sanctions. It probably does. And of course it remains to be seen if Hungary will manage to remake the entire EU in its image, as seems its wont. Why not down the line a junta for government for Portugal for instance?
 
ah yes , no sanctions , we will see sanctions in March 2021 .
 
This question is actually very pertinent, @Colonel, as many things you've said in posts and responses to me have shown, both by intimation and outright commission, a seeming view of having funny and wonky ideas about, and misunderstanding and misinterpretation of, my beliefs, my views on things, and my feelings on many affairs - ones which seem inexplicable to derive from my posts, like certain other bizarre, extremist, and, at times, slanderous accusations about very different, but just as inexplicable, declarations of my beliefs that have been levied against by certain other posters here.

Interesting. All of these veiled intimations of extremist ideologies I supposedly hold that he won't formally state and declarations of unverified "utmost contempt and hatred," (that are obviously the same sort of uses of such terms to "shut down," actual criticism without seriously addressing it like censors and propagandists in actual authoritarian regimes do - not any inclinations I've actually shown), and when I ask @Colonel to stop beating around the bush with them and ante up and explain clearly and articulately his actual beefs here - SILENCE! I guess I now know for sure just where he really stands and how solid and reliable his bravado is...
 
once my finger accidentally touched this 1556 or whatever , the very last page of this Off-topic forum . The oldest thread was one where the people all combine to shut up a guy named the Turk , no doubt before the off-topic rules became the stuff they are . And no , ı don't think he has any expectations to grumble , especially about the latest American victory , where French goes around like defeated or something . Wonder what London will itself gain , from leaving the EU to be the master of its destiny and expecting Europe to pay what London was to pay in case of leaving .
 
Interesting. All of these veiled intimations of extremist ideologies I supposedly hold that he won't formally state and declarations of unverified "utmost contempt and hatred," (that are obviously the same sort of uses of such terms to "shut down," actual criticism without seriously addressing it like censors and propagandists in actual authoritarian regimes do - not any inclinations I've actually shown), and when I ask @Colonel to stop beating around the bush with them and ante up and explain clearly and articulately his actual beefs here - SILENCE! I guess I now know for sure just where he really stands and how solid and reliable his bravado is...

This is a thread about Europe not about my thoughts on your political stance. You do have a significant issue with most things American it would seem so any discussion on incorporating say Canada and the UK into a trade union derives strong criticisms from you that seem unfounded due to a hatred of America.
 
This is a thread about Europe not about my thoughts on your political stance. You do have a significant issue with most things American it would seem so any discussion on incorporating say Canada and the UK into a trade union derives strong criticisms from you that seem unfounded due to a hatred of America.

Political abuse of power and high crimes of state - which I call out in ANY COUNTRY relevant - are NOT most things American - or any other relevant nation - only the behaviour of the political of the political elite, and certainly not "unfounded due to a hatred of the nation." This is why I call your statements similar, in nature, to censors and propagandists of authoritarian regimes towards critics of their government's policies, who also constantly make disingenuous conflations of the crimes of the government being THE NATION AS A WHOLE. Also, in terms of your proposed trade union, I also called out vulture corporations from the UK, South Korea, and Japan as well as the U.S., which you seem to have missed. So, I do not HATE the United States, or any other nation - but I will call out abuses of power, corruption, and state crimes - by any nation - which is NOT hating the nation. Comprende vous?
 
Political abuse of power and high crimes of state - which I call out in ANY COUNTRY relevant - are NOT most things American - or any other relevant nation - only the behaviour of the political of the political elite, and certainly not "unfounded due to a hatred of the nation." This is why I call your statements similar, in nature, to censors and propagandists of authoritarian regimes towards critics of their government's policies, who also constantly make disingenuous conflations of the crimes of the government being THE NATION AS A WHOLE. Also, in terms of your proposed trade union, I also called out vulture corporations from the UK, South Korea, and Japan as well as the U.S., which you seem to have missed. So, I do not HATE the United States, or any other nation - but I will call out abuses of power, corruption, and state crimes - by any nation - which is NOT hating the nation. Comprende vous?

Proof for your high crimes? Even the Hague and US courts, etc have found little high crimes outside of the current executive. Beyond that sure there are occasional scandals but there is no mass "high crimes" as you say. One requires proof to make such accusations.

As to the thought about the unifying economically the Anglo-sphere, simply put the EU, Russia & China are competitors which need a counter balance, especially Russia & China.
 
Ah I see, I disagree there....

democracy is just one instrument of statecraft, diplomacy is another imho - the two have been used together since ancient times,

nothing to do with Brexit as such, perhaps best kept for another thread :)

You are correct, there is a thread for this and I'm moving the reply there :)

What is now the EU project was always infected with a political goal of imitating the USA, creating an european federation. The political problem with that is of course that representative democracy does not work across such a diverse territory. That must should be settled by now, the EU has been incapable of having the European Parliament mean anything important to voters, and in any case unwilling to had it real power.

The multiple treaties that made up the "european community" actually worked, because countries could easily disagree and leave this or that treaty if necessary. That they could even credibly threaten to do so injected a good dose of realism on what got done.
When the treaties were rolled up into a single treaty, a process started at Maastricht and ended in Lisbon, that flexibility was lost. It became and all-or-nothing. The acquis communitaire indeed acquired and never let go of any of its subjects. Except (see brexit) presumably at such great cost that no one would dare.
This change mean a lot, and turned what had been a positive thing into a bureaucratically enforced empire. The power still rests with the council of national governments, but one of those cannot leave any aspect of what was done. Of what was approved by its predecessors. Can a national democracy work if one government can bind its successors forever in ongoing policy decision?
A government decides x. Government falls in the next election because the people want y and vote for a party that promises y. But x was locked into one of the european laws and regulations by then with the agreement of the formed government. Sorry, no y for you. This happens more and more as the scope of the EU is increased. This voids the only political democracy that there is in Europe, the national level one.
 
I mean, I'm kinda picking here (it's late), but conceptually an "Anglo-sphere" seems inherently at odds with "increased multiculturalism" and the spreading of ideas. Especially one actioned by even stricter immigration controls than we currently have (which is the Conservative's ideal - to make them more restrictive).

There is, believe it or not, a school of Conservatism that believes in encouraging immigration. But they're usually strongly tied to plutocratic ideals and strong amounts of de facto socio-economic stratification, and want to build an "ideal society," (by their reckoning) where the dominant ethnicity, in their entirety, live as a pampered elite served by a huge class of immigrant and descendant drudge workers. The Persian Gulf Monarchies epitomize this school of thought that is still strongly attached to Conservative thinking. It's one of many, many reasons I detest the defensive alliance and funding and arming and turning a blind eye to their despicable crap by Western nations like the U.S., UK, France, Australia, and even my home nation of Canada toward these backward, theocratic, feudal chieftainates, and feel this support and defense policy REALLY has to end...
 
(...) Can a national democracy work if one government can bind its successors forever in ongoing policy decision?
A government decides x. Government falls in the next election because the people want y and vote for a party that promises y. But x was locked into one of the european laws and regulations by then with the agreement of the formed government. Sorry, no y for you. This happens more and more as the scope of the EU is increased. This voids the only political democracy that there is in Europe, the national level one.

That's the concept behind any supranational union yes, you can hardly leave national foreign policy to be determined by any haphazard popular majority as it may come about.

You need some continuity and strategy to it, although of course you also need the support of a majority your population in a general sense,

there is a balance to be struck there...
 
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For during the COVID crisis Eurostat has made available the following dashboard showing many indicators: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/recovery-dashboard/
You can look per country, increase the history, and also click on a indicator graph and add countries in order to compare and then move from indicator to indicator.
 
Pretty safe to say that if this Eu wanted to even try to pretend to be about democratic values, Hungary would be on its way out.
Curious how the only time the Eu threatened to kick a country out, it was about money and forcing austerity.
 
they are going to love Greeks very much . With the budget to buy weapons increased 5 fold this year to 2,5 billion euros , meant to buy 10 billions worth in the next 10 years . (No , not complaining , it won't save anyone anyhow)
 
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