bob bobato
L'imparfait
I would say when the Male Cavemen defeated the Female Cavemen, thus affecting all of human history, names, and languages that will ever be.
The five most important battles of all times.
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sydhe
King of Kongs
I think 1515 refers to the Battle of Marignano, but I don't know why anybody would put that among the five most important battles of all time. Or Austerlitz or Dien Bien Phu for that matter.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I would list up the following battles of importance to geopolitics and civilization spread:
Landbattles:
Ancient
The Battle of Actium, Allowing Augustus to unite the Roman Empire and create the civilizational basis we still see today.
Dark Ages
Battle of Mutah - 4 Arab Generals die in succession in this battle against Eastern Roman Empire, until Khalid ibn Al Walid takes over and becomes the greatest Islamic general. Without this battle, the arabs would be locked to the Arab Peninsula, which would be of global importance.
"The Muslims attacked the Byzantines at their camp by the village of Musharif and then withdrew towards Mu'tah. It was here that the two armies fought. During the battle, all three Muslim leaders fell one after the other as they took command of the force: first, Zayd ibn Haritha, then Jafar ibn Abi Talib, then Abdullah ibn Rawaha. Al-Bukhari reported that there were fifty stab wounds in Jafar's body, none of them in the back. After the death of the latter, the troops asked Thabit ibn Arkan to assume command; however, he declined and asked Khalid ibn al-Walid to take the lead.[5]"
Medieval Age
Sacking of Bagdad 1258 - Hulagu ruined the Arab psychology for all posterity by massacring more people than the Black Plague in the region, and removing most of what had been the Arab Golden Age.
Age of Discovery
Battle of Mexico city, allowing the Spanish Empire to dominate North America, thanks to Cortez, the demographics changed in the entire region
Age of Industrialization
Battle of Moscow - fundamentally ending the French domination in Europe, allowing Great Britain to dominate Earth with the ascending USA.
Modern Age
Battle of Stalingrad - fundamentally ending the German attempt to contest Anglo-American domination throughout the early 20th century
Landbattles:
Ancient
The Battle of Actium, Allowing Augustus to unite the Roman Empire and create the civilizational basis we still see today.
Dark Ages
Battle of Mutah - 4 Arab Generals die in succession in this battle against Eastern Roman Empire, until Khalid ibn Al Walid takes over and becomes the greatest Islamic general. Without this battle, the arabs would be locked to the Arab Peninsula, which would be of global importance.
"The Muslims attacked the Byzantines at their camp by the village of Musharif and then withdrew towards Mu'tah. It was here that the two armies fought. During the battle, all three Muslim leaders fell one after the other as they took command of the force: first, Zayd ibn Haritha, then Jafar ibn Abi Talib, then Abdullah ibn Rawaha. Al-Bukhari reported that there were fifty stab wounds in Jafar's body, none of them in the back. After the death of the latter, the troops asked Thabit ibn Arkan to assume command; however, he declined and asked Khalid ibn al-Walid to take the lead.[5]"
Medieval Age
Sacking of Bagdad 1258 - Hulagu ruined the Arab psychology for all posterity by massacring more people than the Black Plague in the region, and removing most of what had been the Arab Golden Age.
Age of Discovery
Battle of Mexico city, allowing the Spanish Empire to dominate North America, thanks to Cortez, the demographics changed in the entire region
Age of Industrialization
Battle of Moscow - fundamentally ending the French domination in Europe, allowing Great Britain to dominate Earth with the ascending USA.
Modern Age
Battle of Stalingrad - fundamentally ending the German attempt to contest Anglo-American domination throughout the early 20th century
Emperor2
Capitalist Missionary
Marathon
Saratoga
Stalingrad
Battle of Peking, 1930's
Pearl Harbor or Shanghai, can't decide which. Pearl Harbor propelled America into WWII and secured its place as the next superpower, along with blood sucking commies in the USSR, but Shanghai secured the fall of the british empire...hmmm...
Saratoga
Stalingrad
Battle of Peking, 1930's
Pearl Harbor or Shanghai, can't decide which. Pearl Harbor propelled America into WWII and secured its place as the next superpower, along with blood sucking commies in the USSR, but Shanghai secured the fall of the british empire...hmmm...
ParkCungHee
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Oh god, where to begin.
The battle of Peking was an unimportant battle, even in the context of the Sino-Japanese War. I can't even begin to fathom why its there.
Stalingrad I've discussed previously.
The Battle of Shanghai was important, but not at all for the reason you mentioned, which is flat out untrue.
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
Time and time again I say how pathetically unimportant the Battle of Marathon was. It is even a stretch to call it a battle. The Persians had a jolly good time plundering and looting Attica and surrounding lands. They then got on their ships and left. The Greeks then massacred the few remaining undisciplined, untrained levies.
I'd put Teutoberg above Marathon. At least that marked the end of serious Roman movement into Germany, however small and mismanaged the battle was.
Marathon bolstered the Athenian reputation, but the decisive battle of the Persian Wars was Salamis. Marathon wasn't decisive because it wasn't enough of a defeat to prevent the Persians from returning (which they did). Marathon is nothing more than a really good story, with a modern type of race named after it because of Phillipedes.
Marathon bolstered the Athenian reputation, but the decisive battle of the Persian Wars was Salamis. Marathon wasn't decisive because it wasn't enough of a defeat to prevent the Persians from returning (which they did). Marathon is nothing more than a really good story, with a modern type of race named after it because of Phillipedes.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
The individual lists of each poster tell you more about scope of knowledge, interests and the ideological inclinations possessed by each poster. I.e. popular history for Westerners consists of Greece and Rome and the modern period in Europe and its colonies and ex-colonies, with some excursions depending on how these have left an impression on the popular mind in the West.
But I don't think any of the battles mentioned had much impact on the course of civilization. I mean, I don't think battles tend to have much impact on that kind of thing. Potentially, I suppose, if Constantine the Great had died at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, there may have been no Universal Christian religion and no Islam, but another Roman emperor may have converted later, as Christianity was growing anyway in all the important places and had an inbuilt mechanisms which arguably guaranteed its dominance so long as no other religions had those mechanism.
Really, the question is an unfair one to ask, since our society (never mind any individual civfanatics poster) doesn't have the knowledge or ability to evaluate the matter. Most historical events are not known, the trail of cause and effect through history will only ever be vaguely understood and alternative courses will never ever be known at all.
The question should really be rephrased "Among the battles you know about, which five do you hold (to the extent you've ever thought about it) as being most important?".
Even then, the only benefit any reader will get is a knowledge of the respondent's historical awareness and inclinations; his understanding of history is unlikely to increase.
But I don't think any of the battles mentioned had much impact on the course of civilization. I mean, I don't think battles tend to have much impact on that kind of thing. Potentially, I suppose, if Constantine the Great had died at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, there may have been no Universal Christian religion and no Islam, but another Roman emperor may have converted later, as Christianity was growing anyway in all the important places and had an inbuilt mechanisms which arguably guaranteed its dominance so long as no other religions had those mechanism.
Really, the question is an unfair one to ask, since our society (never mind any individual civfanatics poster) doesn't have the knowledge or ability to evaluate the matter. Most historical events are not known, the trail of cause and effect through history will only ever be vaguely understood and alternative courses will never ever be known at all.
The question should really be rephrased "Among the battles you know about, which five do you hold (to the extent you've ever thought about it) as being most important?".
Even then, the only benefit any reader will get is a knowledge of the respondent's historical awareness and inclinations; his understanding of history is unlikely to increase.
Dreadnought
Deity
Of course, dozens of battles were mentioned, but I'll add another:
Cerignola, 1503. The first battle ever decided solely by firepower
Cerignola, 1503. The first battle ever decided solely by firepower
sydhe
King of Kongs
Here's one list. I'm sure I'll think of a different one in an hour
1) Hastings
2) Adrianople
3) Tenochtitlan
4) Salamis
5) Saratoga
1) Hastings
2) Adrianople
3) Tenochtitlan
4) Salamis
5) Saratoga
LightSpectra
me autem minui
What was the battle where the Russians finally drove out Mongolia? That was pretty important. It marked the beginning of the end of their empire, and the end of their influence on the west.
North King
blech
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Simply due to the time and cascade of events, more ancient battles typically have far more implications than modern ones. However, ancient battles also typically are important because they decide the clash of cultures, which have been rather few in the modern era. So here's my top five.
Okay, top six. So I couldn't narrow it down.
Salamis (480 BC): Everyone knows about this, obviously. The defense of western civilization against the evil menace of the East. Rather melodramatized, but still extremely important.
Talas River (751): The Chinese had quite the Central Asian Empire before the Arabs came along and had to ruin it. This one might have gone the other way, until a horde of mercenaries switched sides and helped kick the Chinese out of Soghdiana. China would never really recover overland dominance for some time, and went into something of a more seafaring focus.
Fall of Tenochtitlan (1521): I'm sure you all know about this one. Cortez conquers the Aztecs. Well, the truth is rather more complex than the tale everyone likes to weave: few Aztecs actually viewed Cortez as a god. They didn't attack him mostly because he didn't seem that much of a threat: it was a ragged band of a thousand men. The Aztecs had hundreds of times as many. It was only when Cortez became a rallying point for anti-Aztec sentiment that it became competitive. The battle was actually quite in the balance for a while here, and was mostly a native vs. native struggle. In the end, the Spanish won.
Tours/Poitiers (732): Very well known; the Franks stop the Arabs. While not significant in numbers, it blunted the advance, and the Arab raids from then on were just that: raids. Not forces which might be turned to conquest.
Siege of Constantinope (the earlier one, from 674-678. Constantinople, being a rather strategic point to put it lightly, actually underwent multiple sieges; this was the second major one): The Arabs were unable to breach the walls of Constantinople, and the Byzantines invented Greek Fire shortly thereafter. This marked a long series of failures of the Arabs to conquer Europe from the East. Not until 1453 did that bulwark of Constantinople fall.
Battle of Tarain (1192): This one will probably be a relative unknown. The Muslims from Persia, under Muhammad of Ghor, were invading India for the second time. Through clever tactics, Muhammad defeated Prithviraj, the Rajput commander. India's first defense line failed, and the Arabs gained a permanent foothold on the Indus. The raids throughout northern India that followed the Muslim victory were devastating for Hindu culture: temples were ransacked and torn to pieces. Immense treasure was lost, and confidence as well. Furthermore, India would be starkly divided by religion for a long while afterwards.
By the way, excellent thread to necromance.
Okay, top six. So I couldn't narrow it down.
Salamis (480 BC): Everyone knows about this, obviously. The defense of western civilization against the evil menace of the East. Rather melodramatized, but still extremely important.
Talas River (751): The Chinese had quite the Central Asian Empire before the Arabs came along and had to ruin it. This one might have gone the other way, until a horde of mercenaries switched sides and helped kick the Chinese out of Soghdiana. China would never really recover overland dominance for some time, and went into something of a more seafaring focus.
Fall of Tenochtitlan (1521): I'm sure you all know about this one. Cortez conquers the Aztecs. Well, the truth is rather more complex than the tale everyone likes to weave: few Aztecs actually viewed Cortez as a god. They didn't attack him mostly because he didn't seem that much of a threat: it was a ragged band of a thousand men. The Aztecs had hundreds of times as many. It was only when Cortez became a rallying point for anti-Aztec sentiment that it became competitive. The battle was actually quite in the balance for a while here, and was mostly a native vs. native struggle. In the end, the Spanish won.
Tours/Poitiers (732): Very well known; the Franks stop the Arabs. While not significant in numbers, it blunted the advance, and the Arab raids from then on were just that: raids. Not forces which might be turned to conquest.
Siege of Constantinope (the earlier one, from 674-678. Constantinople, being a rather strategic point to put it lightly, actually underwent multiple sieges; this was the second major one): The Arabs were unable to breach the walls of Constantinople, and the Byzantines invented Greek Fire shortly thereafter. This marked a long series of failures of the Arabs to conquer Europe from the East. Not until 1453 did that bulwark of Constantinople fall.
Battle of Tarain (1192): This one will probably be a relative unknown. The Muslims from Persia, under Muhammad of Ghor, were invading India for the second time. Through clever tactics, Muhammad defeated Prithviraj, the Rajput commander. India's first defense line failed, and the Arabs gained a permanent foothold on the Indus. The raids throughout northern India that followed the Muslim victory were devastating for Hindu culture: temples were ransacked and torn to pieces. Immense treasure was lost, and confidence as well. Furthermore, India would be starkly divided by religion for a long while afterwards.
By the way, excellent thread to necromance.
LightSpectra
me autem minui
Oops, I can't read.
Wouldn't Yarmouk be more significant than Tarain?
Wouldn't Yarmouk be more significant than Tarain?
What battle of Moscow?
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
1812 Moscow, where Napoleon lost.
Check your history book. First, there was no battle of Moscow. The closest was Borodino, which was a French victory.
Napoleon did not lost the battle, he lost the campaign.
There was no real battle in Moscow, their was a large fire, and the French had to withdraw as the Russians refused to battle (they fought only at Borodino). And the retreat proved catastrophic for Napoleon: disease, lack of supply, constant harrassing by the Russians lead to a melting of the Grand Armee.
aronnax
Let your spirit be free
Dont forget the winter! The famous sterotypical Russian winter that added the special cherry to the lists of horrible horrible luck.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Goes to show, you only take the field against a stronger, impermanent army if you are a complete idiot. Napoleon would have loved the Russians to have put out a full army against him, but they didn't. Cossacks bunking in Paris a few years later tells the story.
Like in Austerlitz for instance?
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