The God Concept (split off from the Outspoken Atheist thread)

[timtofly]

The first point is: a long hard road changing legislation through the justice system.

The second point is: if God is just a concept, there is still only one concept. Why do we think cultural diversity came before this single concept, as it is not logical to conceive that different cultures happened to come up with the same concept irrespective of all other cultures.

There is no enlightenment, nor societal advance that can remove a truth, if it was just a concept, it would have been abandoned as useless.

It is also useless to legislate morals fairly.

 

[warpus]

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that God has not been a useful and meaningful concept to many people throughout history.

 

[timtofly]

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that God has not been a useful and meaningful concept to many people throughout history.

I do not think math or the scientific method changes a fact and neither does attempting to turn a fact into a concept work that well. Are math and science concepts that were not factual before they were useful? At what point are humans willing to accept that they conceptualize reality to make it their tool, not their reality. Reality will never be anything else, unless we have perceived it as wrong, but that is our fault, not reality's fault.

 

[warpus]

Sorry, I can't parse that and figure out what you mean as it relates to what you are quoting

 

[timtofly]

In you perception of reality, it is easy to claim God is a concept. It is not even that you are taking away the usefulness of the tool. You cannot turn the reality of God into a concept though. Most people just use God as a concept and a tool. Doing so does not change the fact that God is a reality.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Why do we think cultural diversity came before this single concept, as it is not logical to conceive that different cultures happened to come up with the same concept irrespective of all other cultures.

Except that's what happened, and they all came up with enough differences to make all of them inconsistent with each other.

The people in North America didn't just sit around not thinking about spiritual things until the Europeans got here. They had their own spirituality and religious traditions for millennia before. Their cultures were nothing like the European cultures otherwise.

So there's your cultural diversity before your "God/Bible" concept came along.

Honestly, this Tower of Babel stuff is just one more story that was made up because somebody happened to ask why different people speak different languages. There never was one single homogeneous culture adhered to by every human.

I do not think math or the scientific method changes a fact and neither does attempting to turn a fact into a concept work that well. Are math and science concepts that were not factual before they were useful? At what point are humans willing to accept that they conceptualize reality to make it their tool, not their reality. Reality will never be anything else, unless we have perceived it as wrong, but that is our fault, not reality's fault.

The scientific method changes what we know to be facts. As more data comes in, the more correct information we learn and so we acquire more facts.

In you perception of reality, it is easy to claim God is a concept. It is not even that you are taking away the usefulness of the tool. You cannot turn the reality of God into a concept though. Most people just use God as a concept and a tool. Doing so does not change the fact that God is a reality.

Groovy. As usual, let's see the evidence.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Doing so does not change the fact that God is a reality.

Not a fact. The fact is: God is made up. Wishful thinking doesn't make something a fact.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Not a fact. The fact is: God is made up. Wishful thinking doesn't make something a fact.

I hope you realise that your "fact" that God is made up is then naturally only a form of wishful thinking too. I am not talking here about God of any particular scripture but God the Infinity.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I hope you realise that your "fact" that God is made up is then naturally only a form of wishful thinking too. I am not talking here about God of any particular scripture but God the Infinity.

Anyone who mentions God has made this concept up, or is borrowing from someone who did.

God the Infinity is just a squeaky sounding term meaning absolutely nothing. If you refer to infinity, that concept already has a name. It's called: infinity. Placing "God the" in front of it, doesn't make it any more credible.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Anyone who mentions God has made this concept up, or is borrowing from someone who did.

God the Infinity is just a squeaky sounding term meaning absolutely nothing. If you refer to infinity, that concept already has a name. It's called: infinity. Placing "God the" in front of it, doesn't make it any more credible.

Here is what I think: Infinity can take different forms. God the infinity is the sum of all infinities: in space, time, consciousness etc. Its the Absolute.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Here is what I think: Infinity can take different forms. God the infinity is the sum of all infinities: in space, time, consciousness etc. Its the Absolute.

You're welcome to think that.

Here's what I think. Infinity is infinity. It takes on the form of something that isn't finite. Placing " God the" or calling it "the Absolute" adds nothing to the conversation. No information is added to the concept of infinity.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

You're welcome to think that.

Here's what I think. Infinity is infinity. It takes on the form of something that isn't finite. Placing " God the" or calling it "the Absolute" adds nothing to the conversation. No information is added to the concept of infinity.

Do you think/believe reality is/can be infinite? If so what else is infinite consciousness if not God?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Do you think/believe reality is/can be infinite?

I have no idea. Neither does anyone. Anyone who tells you they do are lying or fooling themselves.

I feel it's silly to believe one way or the other, when the knowledge is unattainable.

If so what else is infinite consciousness if not God?

If there were such a thing as infinite consciousness, you could call it God. But there is nothing that indicates such a thing exists, anyone who claims infinite consciousness does exist has made this up or is borrowing from someone who did.

 

[Arakhor]

Not only that, but people talking about infinity tend to underestimate the sheer scale of infinity.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Not only that, but people talking about infinity tend to underestimate the sheer scale of infinity.

Or the complexity. Infinity is a truly mindboggling concept. I have much trouble grasping it myself.

I liked this horizon on infinity

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I have no idea. Neither does anyone. Anyone who tells you they do are lying or fooling themselves.

I respectfully disagree. We are talking about infinity so in some way we can concieve of it and have an idea of it. True its likely only a very foggy idea but still something you cant ignore. The very fact that to our intellect it does make sense is a sign that infinity is a form of reality.

I feel it's silly to believe one way or the other, when the knowledge is unattainable.

Belief precedes knowledge. Thats a natural psychilogical fact. Silly is only hold onto a beliefs which has no practical value.
How can you say something is unattainable? Yes, to a dog the knowledge of mathematics is unatainable becouse its mental consciousness isnt developed enough. To an avarage present day man knowledge of infinity could be unatainable for simmilar reasons...

If there were such a thing as infinite consciousness, you could call it God. But there is nothing that indicates such a thing exists, anyone who claims infinite consciousness does exist has made this up or is borrowing from someone who did.

To our senses there is nothing that indicates that earth turns around the sun but the contrary and its the intellect which make sense of it. To our intellect conception of infinity may be only an abstract concept but why should I trust it any more then I trust senses on subject which is out of its reach?
However there is something that indicates that infinity is a practical reality. And this something is psychological experience of thousand years of spiritual practise and experience...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I respectfully disagree. We are talking about infinity so in some way we can concieve of it and have an idea of it. True its likely only a very foggy idea but still something you cant ignore. The very fact that to our intellect it does make sense is a sign that infinity is a form of reality.

No it is not. Only as a concept.

We can make sense of time travel in out heads. We can make sense of faster than light travel in our heads. Whether either is part of reality is unknown.

edit: And I mean time travel in a different way than we naturally travel true time of course.

Belief precedes knowledge. Thats a natural psychilogical fact.

No it does not. No it is not.

Silly is only hold onto a beliefs which has no practical value.
How can you say something is unattainable? Yes, to a dog the knowledge of mathematics is unatainable becouse its mental consciousness isnt developed enough. To an avarage present day man knowledge of infinity could be unatainable for simmilar reasons...

False analogy. Our mental consciousness is used to highlight the slings and arrows of infinity. Without that mental consciousness you'd only refer to the concept because it has a nice ring to it without taking into account the consequences of doing so.

To our senses there is nothing that indicates that earth turns around the sun but the contrary and its the intellect which make sense of it.

Based on observations.

To our intellect conception of infinity may be only an abstract concept but why should I trust it any more then I trust senses on subject which is out of its reach?

Because of the lack of observations that support the concept. In other words, no observations => it's made up.

However there is something that indicates that infinity is a practical reality. And this something is psychological experience of thousand years of spiritual practise and experience...

As I said. Made up.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

As I said. Made up.

Isnt that funny that the same source which supplied us with the highest morals and inspired us to practise most human ideals has been revealed to us by the biggest liars, decievers and corruptors of mankind?

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Fry had asked why he should "respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates a world.... full of injustice"

Because if you do not show the due respect Nyarlathotep is going to come down to earth and kick your ass, Stephen.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Isnt that funny that the same source which supplied us with the highest morals and inspired us to practise most human ideals has been revealed to us by the biggest liars, decievers and corruptors of mankind?

2 things.

"It" did not supply us with the highest morals and inspiration to practice most human ideals. That is bonkers beyond belief (eh? eh?) We have secular forces to thank for this. And thank Zeus for that or we'd still be living according to bronze age morality. We'd still be stoning people, we'd still sacrifice to please mythical nonsense entities.

Making something up does not mean liar, deceiver or corrupter. Acting as if I denominated those who make stuff up as such, is lying and deceiving. It's a dishonest debating tactic. Which is rather ironic given you just went highest morals on me.