"The Gods Must Be Crazy!" (Civilization vs Tribalism)

[White Elk]

The movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy" is a movie I highly recommend. Its a fun movie with moments of brilliant slapstick, with interesting characters doing interesting things. But the reason I mention it today is that the beginning moments of the movie make a useful comparison to Tribalism and Civilization. I and others have said here at CFC that Tribalism has its benefits, and that there are various elements of modern civilization which are somewhat destructive to humanity. Variations of the topic (Civilization vs Tribalism) has taken many forms here, such as discussions of the Native American Civ being included in the CivIV expansion of BTS. And even in discussions of capitalism vs communism. etc etc When I bring up things which I think need to be fixed within a Capitalist economy, I am not thinking from a socialists viewpoint as much as a tribal viewpoint. And I dont speak/think of total adoption of tribalism nor total absolution of capitalism. But rather a hybrid of the two. Thats for the good of all. For me personally I do want to live within a community which is very closely based on tribalism.

Its tough for me to articulate my reasoning both for myself and for greater humanity. Hence this is why I present a severely edited (for brevity) transcript of the opening moments of "The Gods must be crazy". Its just a tiny window into some peoples way of thinking, but it is a glimpse which might help advance some other discussions here. The full script, along with the entire script of the movie can be found here. But I think it has more impact when viewed from within the movie. So here is 15 minutes of the beginning of the movie. At minute 5:26 is when the bit about civilization comes in. It lasts about 2 minutes. If you watch any of it, at least watch that bit. Thats the bit which I think really needs the support of the movie vs just the written script. But even better is to watch the entire 15. Actually the whole movie is worth a watch for after the first 15 thats when the real story telling occurs. The first 15 are about showing the differences between the two worlds.. the rest of the movie is about the two worlds interacting for a time.. and much more. Fun movie. Only deep if you want it to be.


They must be the most contented people in the world.
They have no crime, no punishment, no violence, no laws,
no police, judges, rulers or bosses.

ln this world of theirs, nothing is bad or evil.
Even a poisonous snake is not bad.
You just have to keep away from the sharp end.

They're very gentle people.
They'll never punish a child or even speak harshly to it.
So the kids are extremely well-behaved. Their games are cute and inventive.

The characteristic which really makes them different from all other races...
is that they have no sense of ownership at all.
Where they live, there's nothing you can own.
Only trees and grass and animals.


Only ?? miles to the south, there's a vast city.
And here you find civilized man.
Civilized man refused to adapt himself to his environment.
Instead he adapted his environment to suit him.
So he built cities, roads, vehicles, machinery.
And he put up power lines to run his labour-saving devices.

But he didn't know when to stop.
The more he improved his surroundings
to make life easier the more complicated he made it.
Now his children are sentenced to 10 to 15 years of school,
to learn how to survive in this complex and hazardous habitat.

And civilized man, who refused to adapt to his surroundings...
now finds he has to adapt and re-adapt every hour of the day to his self-created environment.

For instance, if it's Monday and 07:30 comes up (on a clock),
you have to dis-adapt from your domestic surroundings
and re-adapt yourself to an entirely different environment.
08:00 means everybody has to look busy.
10:30 means you can stop looking busy for 15 minutes.
And then you have to look busy again.

Your day is chopped into pieces.
In each segment of time...
you adapt to new circumstances.
No wonder some people go off the rails a bit.

In the Kalahari, it's always Tuesday, or Thursday if you like. Or Sunday.
No clocks or calendars tell you to do this or that.


Transcript

YouTube Clip

 

[Perfection]

It's a good movie, but don't take it as much more then that. It's not a documentary for Pete's sake.

What exactly are you views of incorperating tribal ideas into modern society?

 

[amadeus]

Those are some lovely shots of South Africa in the '80s. Good show.

 

[Fifty]

What exactly are you views of incorperating tribal ideas into modern society?

The standard hippy ideology with regards to this is to abolish all the aspects of modern life that they personally don't like (such as fast food, corporations, etc.) while making some half-baked justification for keeping the vairous things they do like (beads, music, hippy festivals, internet), and also wanting to elliminate vast areas of modern civ. without realizing the extent to which other areas (even areas they want to keep) depend on those. For instance, they'll do something like rail against chemical plants without considering the plastics and whatnot that go into the computer they want to keep so they can stay active on their messageboards to keep in touch with their loony friends.

 

[White Elk]

Forget that hippy bs already 50. It blinds you to truth. You stereotype, categorize and then dismiss things without pondering them. From this you will learn not much more than you already think you know about the world and its people. You can say I am wrong and am being judgmental myself.. but I have observed you doing this too many times across two forums for me not to truly think that you do yourself and community discussions a disservice by your erroneous stereotyping of things which you don't understand or simply never attempt to understand or ponder.

And sometimes like this you dont even read the full post you respond to. For if you did then you would understand why the majority of your post has no truth. And if you are expanding upon that OP then you are misrepresented your stereotype treehugging dirty hippy. Abolishing chemical plants is very different than requiring them to keep pollutants out of our air and drinking water. And skimping on worker protection and health insurance etc to maximize the profits of shareholders. Some of us (the majority of those I know who you would stereotype as hippy) fully understand how society needs this complex infrastructure which they have created for themselves. They just work/think to strike a balance. Its simple really... no matter what you eat or how you eat it, you don't horsehockeye where you eat. Ponder that.



One more thing 50 never answered me on, even though I have specifically asked this of him twice. "How do you reconcile a couple examples Ive given of the truth of my life and my moral process, with your ridiculous hippy stereotype (as relates to the treehugging hippy)?" As I said then.. I worked in a Lumber mill (my favorite job thus far) and I build houses using the lumber from forests. For many years of my life I make extra money afterwork and on weekends by cutting firewood for people to burn wood for heat. I loved working at the mill and cutting massive cants and then turning them into piano soundboards and guitar tops etc. I saw the need for my society for this lumber and these house, and I see nothing beyond responsible harvest and processing which needs to be altered.

And in that light of fiscal and environmental responsibility I fought with all my heart to make management reverse the waste cycle and turn our offcuts into other market products rather than burning them in massive outdoor fires. Due to my diligence we opened markets (found buyers) for mouse trap blanks in the US and sushi plate blanks in japan etc. This waste lumber which we produced in the manufacture of musical instrument wood was ideal for these markets. Previous it cost us money to deal with.. now it it paid us in spades. Then what was truly waste we gave to Tamarack Mills who picked it up (at no cost to us) and then chipped it and burned it in high efficiency auger feed broilers to provide the electricity to power all the equipment in their massive mill. The excess of that power regeneration plant was then sold back to the Idaho Power company which then powered peoples homes and businesses. I/We turned waste into profit and usable resource which lessoned some of the forest harvests. I earned my company money off the previous waste which had previously drained company resources. And then we made it free to dispose of all the tree fiber which we currently could find no other market for. It was huge for the economics of my mill Stein and Volk to turn waste into cash rather than to allow it to drain on our overhead costs.

And it is even more important that the filling of the needs of other markets reduced the communal need for heavy handed foresting methods. That mills balancing wasn't measurable against the grand scale of my country. But this mills wisdom of using the tailings of manufacture should already be instilled in all industries throughout my county and in any 'modern' nation of the world! We no better than to waste on this scale. I should not have had to fight as I did to make our mill run in balance with my nations infrastructure and its environment. Thats a balance of a tribal like morality for the purpose of capitalistic endeavor. We as modern humans in these complex societies should be far more wise than what we exhibit in our actions. I think the ancient tribal understandings were far more advanced than what we exhibit. We might have advanced technology far further than they have. But we horsehockeye where we eat and thats gotta be about one of the dumbest things a society can ever do.

So why clearcut entire forests systems and then chop the trees into little bits such as housing studs and mouse traps.. When you can harvest specific trees within a given forest ecosystem in such a way that your harvesting improves the health (and future yield) of the forest.. and you dont have to expend tax monies to repair the massive damage that the industry has done? And why chop a tree into little bits that are wasted when your only looking for one single product, and then waste the rest of the fiber for burn or chip piles for absolutely no gain other than an addition to localized air pollution? The answer is that it is economical for the company to standardize their process and simply cut to specification the lumber they seek. It is largely due to public subsidies... which comes from the taxpayers. And it has no relation to the needs of the society. And so in the end the society pays in tax monies to allow industry to specialize in profit at the expense of the greater whole. Profit can be made. But it must be balanced wholly within the industry and not be subsidized by the citizens labor. It is so ridiculous and it has a short life before it will catastrophically fail. All that needs happen is for that balance between the upper class and the middle class to tip too far. Be it lumber, energy, transportation, etc.. tax monies are used to pay for the fix of the private profits of these industries. Check it out!

I speak of the lumber industry for that is which I have the most first hand experiance in. But the paradigm sadly exists for all industry it appears. Make the money now and keep the investors happy so the ball continues to roll. Then the government in the form of tax payer monies attempts to deal with the after affects. Problem is even our nations education budget is continually cut among many many other things while we spend many billions of dollars correcting problems which private industry cause. If capitalism is held to its standard then it must hold to the ideals. But industry of today uses tax payer money to deal with that which should rightly come in the cost of product not the sales tax. If they were held accountable in a true capitalist society that was not backed by the peoples taxes then they would be forced to change their money making paradigm and the peoples of the world would benefit and the companies would still profit. Its all fracked up now and its all based on a silly 1950s ideal that big business is good for national security. Theres more but that big business saving the world from fascism has long outlived its usefulness to the point of serious detriment. Now are the days which we must reform our societies and balance capitalism against the greater whole.

 

[White Elk]

It's a good movie, but don't take it as much more then that. It's not a documentary for Pete's sake.

What exactly are you views of incorperating tribal ideas into modern society?

Movies, stories, fables, myths and more often hold far more treasure than simple entertainment. They spur individual thinking and progress human knowledge. Most movies and TV of our day do not fit the mythology etc program. Most are simply made to make a buck and not to share a teaching or to inspire higher thinking. But the majority of story telling of humanities history has been for the purpose of being a jumping off point for individual thought guided by a communal teaching (along with the passing on of things).

"The Gods Must Be Crazy" is one where you can sit back brain dead and couch potatoed and just enjoy the ride. Or you can enjoy the ride while using your higher thought process to ponder what you are seeing. And if your brain is such (which I doubt) that you can only deal with limited input then you can enjoy the flick the first time through and then reenjoy it the second time while thinking a bit deeper. Then some time later you can rewatch the thing and use your new life learnings to look for even more meaning into the mythology of the story. Read some Joseph Campbell (a lecturer not a story teller) for some added insight into this mythology thingy. I've seen the movie multiple times and it spurs new intellectual thought every time. Hehe and although I know what to expect there are still parts of the movie that bring me to moments of near uncontrollable laughter. I will watch it many more times. And I will enjoy it as fun and it continue to spur thoughts within me.

But just watch that first 15 minutes again (before the embarkation of the quest) and you will understand why I choose this as an attempt to help the tribalists among us to better relate to the others of our community here.

 

[frob2900]

The standard hippy ideology with regards to this is to abolish all the aspects of modern life that they personally don't like (such as fast food, corporations, etc.) ..

..also wanting to elliminate vast areas of modern civ. without realizing the extent to which other areas (even areas they want to keep) depend on those...

How does fast food keep computers, hippy festivals and bead manufacturing going?

I agree about the corporation bit though, although certainly corporations shouldn't be allowed to run rampant. Best thing that ever happened to the consumer was Microsoft being slapped around by the US government and Linux simultaneously.

Of course, that was a monopoly, but still. Even though hardcore capitalists talk about free market and competition etc. I bet they're all dreaming of having a monopoly in a certain sector anyway.

 

[Rambuchan]

White Elk: I think this is a somewhat problematic example to support and illustrate what you are thinking about modern society. The quote(s) from the movie in the OP is pretty much down the line "noble savage" simplicity. This world view, which was current throughout the long colonial era and still lingers today, was purposefully fabricated. And it often still is today, as part of a similar ideological drive.

A good example of this is the impression of 'Roanoke' (not the modern day place) and other early settlements in what was then known as Virginia, now the North Carolina coast line. Early reports arriving in 16th century England of this place and its inhabitants depicted a veritable utopia; abundant fields and fishing waters, locals who were fertile and healthy, who were always happy and helpful, in an enviable state of innocence and so on. There were many reports which presented this (predominantly Protestant) vision of paradise to be found in the New World.

Of course this was not quite the whole truth. The years in which such reports were written, namely the 1580s, saw famine amongst the then inhabitants of modern day North Carolina. There were on-going conflicts between the varying groups and, as a result, there were calculating individuals who met and assisted the European colonialists with their own partisan agendas in mind. Hardly innocent, hardly abundant, hardly to be envied as the early propagandists would have liked people to think.

So why the idyllic visions? Well, to attract investment and further colonists. If the truth of famine and conflict had gotten back to England, would the merchant classes and royalty have sunk more money into these bold endeavours? Of course not. In fact, Queen Elizabeth I got wind of some of the realities over in the New World and was reticent about further investment from the crown, hence the later method of privatised empire building. It is this kind of scenario that one must bear in mind when being presented with images of the "noble savage".

As Joseph Campbell would have been well aware, for every story told there is an accompanying ideology. That ideology was a colonialist one, with racist and early capitalist tendencies. And the narrative can often turn on a knife edge, depending on the ideology's demands. In casting folk as the "noble savage" or the "honourable primitive", it quickly becomes possible to cast them also as simply "the savage" or "the primitive". This makes genocide and ethnocide much more palatable and justifiable. It makes bringing the primitive into 'civilised ways of living' (aka becoming an imperial subject within the labour hierarchy) seem like an act of charity. (Granted, such notions can equally work to delegitimize colonial, imperialist endeavours too, just less frequently through history).

Today's examples of portrayals of the "noble savage" are often accompanied with an agenda supporting globalisation; the wrapping of such people into the global economy (usually as the new sweat shop labourers) and the acquisition of their land and resources. The Kalahari Bushmen are just one example from the frontline.

 

[C~G]

I haven't checked the movie yet closer, but I will.

I agree with Rambuchan, this is noble savage-theme all the way.

It's funny note as Joseph Campbell has been mentioned that the modern civilization as well continues to develop these mythological stories.

This reminds me that same kind of theme is in some ways in evolutionary theory (evolutionary psychology) especially when it comes to explain the sexual freedom of people (especially women through feministic theories). People are thought to be somehow "better off" back then and more free to do their choices in natural setting (darwinian mechanisms were more present) which should be considered nothing but as of fabricated story. The social rules were back then too and probably even stricter sense than now, not forgetting that the natural state of human isn't exactly necessary the most wished one.

Also looking from modern point of view the tribalism is ever present because of nationalism. And I don't see that so much of a good thing.

BTW, I consider whole term of "Civilization" as it is quite often referred quite bit of fabricated story as well.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

tribalism is just disoriented civilization.

 

[FredLC]

Great post, Rambuchan, I have nothing to add to that.

On a side note, I also think that movie is great fun.

Regards .

 

[Mr. Dictator]

yeah, rambuchan basically just finished the thread

 

[Phlegmak]

The Gods Must Be Crazy is a fantastic movie.

 

[Elta]

The standard hippy ideology with regards to this is to abolish all the aspects of modern life that they personally don't like (such as fast food, corporations, etc.) while making some half-baked justification for keeping the vairous things they do like (beads, music, hippy festivals, internet), and also wanting to elliminate vast areas of modern civ. without realizing the extent to which other areas (even areas they want to keep) depend on those. For instance, they'll do something like rail against chemical plants without considering the plastics and whatnot that go into the computer they want to keep so they can stay active on their messageboards to keep in touch with their loony friends.

Fifty You don't have the slightest idea on the difference between New tribalism and Neo tribalism then you try to group them all intogether into your all incompasing world view on hippys, nice

New tribalism - is the idea in short that we should all abandon society and live like the bushman.


Neo Tribalism is the idea that human beings evolved in Tribes and that all species become pathological and that if possible we can not be happy unless we are in a somewhat tribal society.

What does a Tribe mean?

Not a simple anwser by anyones defenition. In the Neo Tribal sense it is defined by Dunbars number which goes something like this, All Primates use grooming as a from of communicative bonding, the same part of a Chimps brain (the neocortex) lights up when we talk to one another.

There is only a paticular amount of "space" in each persons brain for other people the "average" being 150 but most of Neo Tribalism like to use 95 because everyone (99.9%) has at least this much room in there NeoCortex
what do I mean by "room" well we all communicate with each other directly and then we gossip. I don't mean gossip as in the way women tell secrets but, that we keep in contact with some people via a third person, for example if one of my friends ask me about work I will mention what happened today - he keeps uptodate with one of my coworkers he used to date, she ask me about him at work and keeps up to date on him.
This is called "the monkey sphere" ussually.

I don't think I need to give examples of because there are so many, the turnover rate of stores with over 100 people working in them tend to be over 1000% higher, Army companys world wide allways perform better % wise compared to other companys when they keep there numbers inside the monkeysphere as well as a super majority (85%+) of older milltarys were keept inside the monkeysphere at smallar groupings for example a Roman army had a Centurion would have a size of 80 men this being their base unit, all of these men were in each others monkey sphere making them very successful agianst the unorginised enimes they had., Neolithic farming villages ....I could go on and on but, I belive you could do your own research.


So you see how a tribe is a basic unit of human interaction don't understand? or disagree ? right down how many people you know by name and come incontact with every day + the number of people you talk of and care about every day (could be phone internet or whatever) of these people even the ones you don't like if there being gone would effect your life in a small way or if you do care for them then they are in your monkeysphere and I can allmost guarantee it is under 200 (the uperend monkeysphere size which is ussually limited to only the most talkative women)


Anyways as far as how economics should be run or cites built etc etc most Neo Tribalist are New Urbanist and would like to see (even if associated with a real small business like lets say a Suncoast video store...or any other store you would see in a commen american store) in a new urbanist type of town. While trying to do away with so caled "anti nepitisim" rules that companys have because of all of the law suits they have when they are accused of nepetisim - they have even expanded the rules to being friends outside of work with someone as a barrier to being a boss - subject of someone

If you work for or with someone in your monkey sphere who cares for you we will all be better off and happyier need sunday off because you want to go to a BBQ? be honest and have your cousin cover for you, he knows you will do the same for him, I could go on but, we all get the idea.

Hate going to partys with just a few friends and trying to "fit in" just go to one with your tribe and get it started You will be suprised what 30 people all of the sudden coming into a bar and dancing will do to everyone elses night

I could go on to Governemnt - Schools and the lot but, I won't because I think you get the general Idea.



Fifty & Perfection the way you both talk sometimes makes you seem just as closed minded as religous fanatics sometimes.....

 

[Elta]

You know what I'll add a little more, it is 6:30 and I have no where to go

Do you know why we stereotype people so much and so easily? It is a biological function to help you spot danger, because you can't know everyone like you know them in your monkeysphere you give them the once over and attempt to "place" them for example "hippy" "liberal" "conservitive" "stoner" "closed minded moderate" "Typical Insert XXXXXX" you get the idea.

The reason why we get attached to things like sports teams is (well the main reason is that we don't play them anymore because it is genuinly hard to find someone to play with which is because of drive everywhere suburbs ...but that is a discussion for a dif. thread) we want to attach ourselves to something tribal and a sports team is the next best thing.

Why do dumb kids like to genreise and sub - sub - sub genreize everything? because they try to be "inside" and keep everyone outside their subculture monkeysphere dispora at the same time it is why kids do dumb things like join gangs and why we have racist it is a US VS THEM thing that gives them a sense of belonging. That is why it is good to have people younger than you so that you can teach them while having people older than you at all stages of life close to you that you care for so that you can learn from one another.

I'll go on to other things but there is so much to cover that I need questions so that I know what to cover.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I'll cast my vote with Rammiepoo on this one, good show ol' chap! In other news, The Gods Must be Crazy is a great movie.

 

[Fifty]

@Elta: The first mistake you made was to think my 1st post in this thread was a serious attempt at an argument

White Elk: I think this is a somewhat problematic example to support and illustrate what you are thinking about modern society. The quote(s) from the movie in the OP is pretty much down the line "noble savage" simplicity. This world view, which was current throughout the long colonial era and still lingers today, was purposefully fabricated. And it often still is today, as part of a similar ideological drive.

A good example of this is the impression of 'Roanoke' (not the modern day place) and other early settlements in what was then known as Virginia, now the North Carolina coast line. Early reports arriving in 16th century England of this place and its inhabitants depicted a veritable utopia; abundant fields and fishing waters, locals who were fertile and healthy, who were always happy and helpful, in an enviable state of innocence and so on. There were many reports which presented this (predominantly Protestant) vision of paradise to be found in the New World.

Of course this was not quite the whole truth. The years in which such reports were written, namely the 1580s, saw famine amongst the then inhabitants of modern day North Carolina. There were on-going conflicts between the varying groups and, as a result, there were calculating individuals who met and assisted the European colonialists with their own partisan agendas in mind. Hardly innocent, hardly abundant, hardly to be envied as the early propagandists would have liked people to think.

So why the idyllic visions? Well, to attract investment and further colonists. If the truth of famine and conflict had gotten back to England, would the merchant classes and royalty have sunk more money into these bold endeavours? Of course not. In fact, Queen Elizabeth I got wind of some of the realities over in the New World and was reticent about further investment from the crown, hence the later method of privatised empire building. It is this kind of scenario that one must bear in mind when being presented with images of the "noble savage".

As Joseph Campbell would have been well aware, for every story told there is an accompanying ideology. That ideology was a colonialist one, with racist and early capitalist tendencies. And the narrative can often turn on a knife edge, depending on the ideology's demands. In casting folk as the "noble savage" or the "honourable primitive", it quickly becomes possible to cast them also as simply "the savage" or "the primitive". This makes genocide and ethnocide much more palatable and justifiable. It makes bringing the primitive into 'civilised ways of living' (aka becoming an imperial subject within the labour hierarchy) seem like an act of charity. (Granted, such notions can equally work to delegitimize colonial, imperialist endeavours too, just less frequently through history).

Today's examples of portrayals of the "noble savage" are often accompanied with an agenda supporting globalisation; the wrapping of such people into the global economy (usually as the new sweat shop labourers) and the acquisition of their land and resources. The Kalahari Bushmen are just one example from the frontline.

All true and very nice post.

At LOT of the anthropological "research" done to establish the existence of these supposed peaceful tribal societies was deliberately fabricated, or at least horribly done. A few examples were on in which a tribe original referred to as "the peaceful people" alongside the claim that they have "no word for violence"... turns out that they have murder rates that make the worst ghettos of the modern world look nice. Life is better in pretty much every way in modern society (except in the vague areas that people like W.E. love to bring up like "oneness with nature" and such)

Anybody interested in a thorough debunking of the Noble Savage (among other things) ought to read Pinker's "The Blank Slate".


fun fact: The percentage killed in the wars of tribal civilizations over the last hundred years is significantly less than those killed in eurasian civilization in the 20th century (despite two world wars, nukes, holocaust, etc. etc.)

 

[Disenfrancised]

<Edit> what fifty said.

Plus, complain about modern man and his industrial cities all you want, but those Kalhari bushmen were being killed and driven south (and into the deserts) by iron age Bantu herders for thousands of years.

Also

They'll never punish a child or even speak harshly to it.

Maybe not, but like other hunter gather societies they will be fine with infanticide if the tribe hits a hard patch - limited resources you know.

 

[C~G]

Anybody interested in a thorough debunking of the Noble Savage (among other things) ought to read Pinker's "The Blank Slate".

That is good book indeed.

However it should be noted that Pinker's argumentations about issues out of his natural habitat run out of fuel at certain point since his assumptions are obviously somehow really strangely based into the idea that everything is based into biology except those that view biology differently than him or oppose biological approach.

It's kind of always problematic when person's book tries to make point beyond the actual scientific theory it's based into. It doesn't carry anymore further than the original assumption ending just flapping it's wings on the ground rather than flying bravely on the air above these obstacles presented by other fields of study.

Nevertheless, I recommend it.

 

[Elta]

@Elta: The first mistake you made was to think my 1st post in this thread was a serious attempt at an argument

I try not to take anything you say as serious, as a matter of fact IDK if I have ever read anything serious from you or perfection for all I know you are both sarcastic jesuits hauled up in a temple with nothing better to do than K.O. emo music and creationism. but, there was nothing to argue about since it was a opinion based question not a argument agianst or for incorperating tribal ideas into modern society. So Iam not sure why you called it a argument.

I haven't read the rest of this thread yet, so don't just assume it's spam I just wanted to write that quickly (to mods)