The Good, the Bad and Ugly of the CiV AI

Playing to win is not the same thing as "consipiring against you".

I understand it may seem that way at times, but this is probably a side effectof Civ4 letting people off way too easy with diplomacy due to the religion crutch.

Also it would help that you don't necro threads to start an argument /respond to months old posts.
 
I understand it may seem that way at times, but this is probably a side effectof Civ4 letting people off way too easy with diplomacy due to the religion crutch.

Also it would help that you don't necro threads to start an argument /respond to months old posts.

Civ 4 diplomacy was to easy...


I know they wanted to make something different but come on you have to agree that they overreact with it?

You can trust nobody anymore you can't even trade because AI declares war randomly... There is basicly no diplomacy anymore
 
Playing to win is not the same thing as "consipiring against you".

The AI rarely plays to win. My neighbors often play to hurt me for the sake of hurting me while getting crushed in the process.
How else would you explain backstabbing by civs who are weaker than you ?
 
Also it would help that you don't necro threads to start an argument /respond to months old posts.

What would it help?

The AI rarely plays to win. My neighbors often play to hurt me for the sake of hurting me while getting crushed in the process.
How else would you explain backstabbing by civs who are weaker than you ?

I don't know how it is programmed, but I'd expect opponents who were playing to win to either go all out to stop me when I was approaching a victory condition, or quit. If peace means losing with 99.8% probability while war means losing with 99% probability, war is the correct choice.
 
I understand it may seem that way at times, but this is probably a side effectof Civ4 letting people off way too easy with diplomacy due to the religion crutch.

Also it would help that you don't necro threads to start an argument /respond to months old posts.

This is a game about the rise and evolution of Civilizations through time. Historically there was a giant religion crutch, so in the game there should be religions as well. People need something to believe in. They do now just as much as in ancient times. And just because it is a game it is still based on history and civilization. Religion keeps things in perspective. Without religion in CiV, diplomacy is horrible because there is no order. There is no belief system to base decisions on, that is why the AI acts so erratic. If there was religion, it brings an extra element and depth into the game. Essentially, it would give the AI something else to look at, before it makes decisions. Other than just blind decisions that have no purpose, decisions that are just plain unrealistic. Decisions that handicap it!

A ruler of a civ should have a brain, not only that, but be cunning and wise as well. Who wants to live under the rule of some uncalculating idiotic leader, thats going to get everyone killed, or make life bad for the people as a whole. Now granted there were plenty of bad kings and leaders throughout history. However, we still need a civ AI that can look at its situation and try to make the best decisions for itself. An AI that can calculate friends as well as enemies. How can there be strength and endurance enough for a civ to last, without calculation?
 
This is a game about the rise and evolution of Civilizations through time. Historically there was a giant religion crutch,


Historically there's been more bloodshed from in-fighting among sects within a single religion or Emperors and Pharaohs showing favour to their own gods to consolidate their power.

The idea of people in the same religion fighting on one side against another is very Euro-centric and is maybe only true during the crusades , through to the conquest of Byzantium by the Ottomans, even then, Western Europe didn't care all too much, as the Eastern church wasn't with them and even the Medici's failed to unite the two churches. The sacking of Byzantium by the crusades on the urging of Venician interests is probably an interesting chapter of christemdom that's not often discussed. But it was responsible, quite literally, for fuelling the nascent renaissance in Europe at the time as the wealth of the east poured into the medieval west.

I'm not opposed to religion, but most serious analysis of the feature as applied in Civ4 point to it being fairly modest and interachangeable and heavily human centric in its implementation. (ie: The AI can never switch to any safe religion because human players won't care what religion the AI is on; It's only AI players who places undue weight on the human player having the same religion as they do, which is why it is a 'crutch' mechanic to smooth overly diplomacy.

I actually beta'd early builds of Civ4, before this crutch was put in and before vassal states, the dev team wanted to create a 'bloc' system where half the world is constantly at war with each other, either cold or hot, and they wanted to way for alliances for form so the original design was to seed AI's in such a way that half the world would just not like you, or trade with the player, while the other half did like you or rather, disliked you less. This way players would naturally steer towards civs that liked them, and hate civs that did not. But the problem of course is if you drew those half of civs who hated you as your neighbours, it crippled your early game. This system actually was released in vanilla, which made early diplo wins nigh impossible without warfare and what came to be known as domination-lite. Vassals was therefore brought in to address it, though I wasn't involved with warlords testing, I can only assume on that point.

But essentially, the Civ4 team never solved the core diplomacy challenge they wanted to give the players. Through many patches, the bloc system was toned down into a more malleable generic system where mercenary Civs were willing to war and peace based on set and easy to meet conditions. The Civs absolutely also lacked flavour. They were all very genreric and generically referred to as 'AI civ neighbour' it didn't matter which, they all behaved the same diplomatically.

Lastly, I don't even have an idea of where Civ5 might end up. There's a religion value for AI civs in the xml. It's likely a leftover from the Civ4 core that the Civ5 team built the xml on, but it may come back.
 
Historically there's been more bloodshed from in-fighting among sects within a single religion or Emperors and Pharaohs showing favour to their own gods to consolidate their power.

The idea of people in the same religion fighting on one side against another is very Euro-centric and is maybe only true during the crusades , through to the conquest of Byzantium by the Ottomans, even then, Western Europe didn't care all too much, as the Eastern church wasn't with them and even the Medici's failed to unite the two churches. The sacking of Byzantium by the crusades on the urging of Venician interests is probably an interesting chapter of christemdom that's not often discussed. But it was responsible, quite literally, for fuelling the nascent renaissance in Europe at the time as the wealth of the east poured into the medieval west.

I'm not opposed to religion, but most serious analysis of the feature as applied in Civ4 point to it being fairly modest and interachangeable and heavily human centric in its implementation. (ie: The AI can never switch to any safe religion because human players won't care what religion the AI is on; It's only AI players who places undue weight on the human player having the same religion as they do, which is why it is a 'crutch' mechanic to smooth overly diplomacy.

I actually beta'd early builds of Civ4, before this crutch was put in and before vassal states, the dev team wanted to create a 'bloc' system where half the world is constantly at war with each other, either cold or hot, and they wanted to way for alliances for form so the original design was to seed AI's in such a way that half the world would just not like you, or trade with the player, while the other half did like you or rather, disliked you less. This way players would naturally steer towards civs that liked them, and hate civs that did not. But the problem of course is if you drew those half of civs who hated you as your neighbours, it crippled your early game. This system actually was released in vanilla, which made early diplo wins nigh impossible without warfare and what came to be known as domination-lite. Vassals was therefore brought in to address it, though I wasn't involved with warlords testing, I can only assume on that point.

But essentially, the Civ4 team never solved the core diplomacy challenge they wanted to give the players. Through many patches, the bloc system was toned down into a more malleable generic system where mercenary Civs were willing to war and peace based on set and easy to meet conditions. The Civs absolutely also lacked flavour. They were all very genreric and generically referred to as 'AI civ neighbour' it didn't matter which, they all behaved the same diplomatically.

Lastly, I don't even have an idea of where Civ5 might end up. There's a religion value for AI civs in the xml. It's likely a leftover from the Civ4 core that the Civ5 team built the xml on, but it may come back.

What I should have said was that religions evolved as man evolved. The general picture is that men do things based on religious beliefs, or belief in a god or gods. This channels down through their leaders, who are viewed as divine. Then later they did things for a Pope or religious figure, for some heavenly or Earthly benefit, depending on the religion. However, the point is that religion, in whatever shape or form, molded mankind as time went on. Religion or lack there of guided the decisions of man, we cannot leave out pagans, or various cults, which have been present since the dawn of mankind. So because of this I hope it is put into the game at some point. BTW I did not realize that the civs had an xml rating for religion, it may not actually work in game. Many xml ratings are not tied into the new game. Although, I have known they have built the core of the game around the old coding.
 
Everything the previous poster said was wrong. Relgious differences generally play an insignificant role in diplomacy. Countries do not need a national religion and most get on fine without one. What is/was the national religion of the USA? T'ang China? the Roman Empire?

Historically there's been more bloodshed from in-fighting among sects within a single religion

The most passionate conflicts are often between groups with slightly different religions. Protestant vs Catholic vs Orthodox, Sunni vs Shia, Islam vs Judaism.

The idea of people in the same religion fighting on one side against another is very Euro-centric and is maybe only true during the crusades

I don't think it is especially euro-centric. Middle easterners have the same idea. The was some fairly sectarian fighting in Europe on Protestant vs Catholic lines in the 17th century.

I'm not opposed to religion, but most serious analysis of the feature as applied in Civ4 point to it being fairly modest and interachangeable and heavily human centric in its implementation. (ie: The AI can never switch to any safe religion because human players won't care what religion the AI is on; It's only AI players who places undue weight on the human player having the same religion as they do, which is why it is a 'crutch' mechanic to smooth overly diplomacy.

I dont support any crutches and I oppose religion.

I actually beta'd early builds of Civ4, before this crutch was put in and before vassal states, the dev team wanted to create a 'bloc' system where half the world is constantly at war with each other, either cold or hot, and they wanted to way for alliances for form so the original design was to seed AI's in such a way that half the world would just not like you, or trade with the player, while the other half did like you or rather, disliked you less.

That just indicates they don't know how to let natural order arise.
 
6) New Diplomatic options
GOOD : You can actually keep a relatively war free existence as long as you do nothing
BAD: AI denouncement hell destroys international relations - one they start flying its all war all-the time on every channel
UGLY: Inane demands (75% of your treasury please - from an ALLY?), illogical denouncements and negative reactions for helping others.

Agree 100%. As presented here, diplomacy is in complete shambles. A total reworking is necessary to actually make this portion of the game any fun.
 
This is a game about the rise and evolution of Civilizations through time. Historically there was a giant religion crutch, so in the game there should be religions as well. People need something to believe in. They do now just as much as in ancient times. And just because it is a game it is still based on history and civilization. Religion keeps things in perspective. Without religion in CiV, diplomacy is horrible because there is no order. There is no belief system to base decisions on, that is why the AI acts so erratic. If there was religion, it brings an extra element and depth into the game. Essentially, it would give the AI something else to look at, before it makes decisions. Other than just blind decisions that have no purpose, decisions that are just plain unrealistic. Decisions that handicap it!

A ruler of a civ should have a brain, not only that, but be cunning and wise as well. Who wants to live under the rule of some uncalculating idiotic leader, thats going to get everyone killed, or make life bad for the people as a whole. Now granted there were plenty of bad kings and leaders throughout history. However, we still need a civ AI that can look at its situation and try to make the best decisions for itself. An AI that can calculate friends as well as enemies. How can there be strength and endurance enough for a civ to last, without calculation?


You don't religion for that AI just have to make use of his flavors when he makes decissions now he makes his decisions based on numbers how much soldiers instead of do I like him and what is my loyalty rating?
 
This is a game about the rise and evolution of Civilizations through time. Historically there was a giant religion crutch, so in the game there should be religions as well. People need something to believe in. They do now just as much as in ancient times. And just because it is a game it is still based on history and civilization. Religion keeps things in perspective. Without religion in CiV, diplomacy is horrible because there is no order. There is no belief system to base decisions on, that is why the AI acts so erratic. If there was religion, it brings an extra element and depth into the game. Essentially, it would give the AI something else to look at, before it makes decisions. Other than just blind decisions that have no purpose, decisions that are just plain unrealistic. Decisions that handicap it!

A ruler of a civ should have a brain, not only that, but be cunning and wise as well. Who wants to live under the rule of some uncalculating idiotic leader, thats going to get everyone killed, or make life bad for the people as a whole. Now granted there were plenty of bad kings and leaders throughout history. However, we still need a civ AI that can look at its situation and try to make the best decisions for itself. An AI that can calculate friends as well as enemies. How can there be strength and endurance enough for a civ to last, without calculation?

I agree that there should be some kind of religious element to the game. But I don't think it should be as pronounced as it was in civ4. Perhaps religion could be used solely as a diplomatic tool (rather than revolving large portions of the game around it). Along with Dexters I think that if religion IS incorporated in civ5, there should be a degree of in-fighting regarding the religions. IE if civ x and civ y are both the same religion, there are some small diplomatic penalties until civ z (who is another religion) DoW on x or y. Then, the diplo penalty goes away, and a diplo bonus is created.

The effects of religion would be nullified once a civ adopts the Rationalism social policy. Perhaps the effects would be strengthened if Piety is adopted.
 
I agree that there should be some kind of religious element to the game. But I don't think it should be as pronounced as it was in civ4. Perhaps religion could be used solely as a diplomatic tool (rather than revolving large portions of the game around it). Along with Dexters I think that if religion IS incorporated in civ5, there should be a degree of in-fighting regarding the religions. IE if civ x and civ y are both the same religion, there are some small diplomatic penalties until civ z (who is another religion) DoW on x or y. Then, the diplo penalty goes away, and a diplo bonus is created.

The effects of religion would be nullified once a civ adopts the Rationalism social policy. Perhaps the effects would be strengthened if Piety is adopted.

Yes, I like this idea. I would not like religion all encompassing like civ 4. I realize CiV is a different game, with different parameters. So, any element added to the game should fit into the game's concept. Your ideas certainly would make diplomacy better, because it will give the AI a new factor to add to its decision making process. It certainly would be a step in the right direction.
 
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