The Great Flood

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You held that view, or made it up? You found people, even educated people, who backed up the view you made up, and hold. Would that be a fair assumption?
No. We're talking about a documentary I saw on TV back in the '90s. That's a decade after I did most of my anthropology courses in college. It was in the '80s when I realized that there were many different creation stories among the world's many religions, and they were incompatible with each other. Since they can't all be right and none that I've ever heard of are supported by known science, it seems more reasonable that they aren't literally true - they're made-up stories, invented by ancient peoples who didn't have the means to discover the real answers to the question of where the world comes from, how it was made, and so on.

It is interesting that at certain times there are "made up stories" to teach a point, found in the Bible. It is clearly pointed out that was the attempt. Not all accounts are so marked, yet we are free to pick and choose, even if that was not the writer's intent?
I haven't read the entire bible, but I've read enough of it to figure out that some stories are elaborate ways of teaching various morals and life lessons.

That would be like claiming there was no Charles Dickens, because all his stories were made up, even if based on his life. Even when he pointed out that fact to others. He never existed because he failed to provide proof for thousands of years. No one would believe any factual writings of his, because the default view, was they were all written to make a point.
Charles Dickens was a 19th-century writer who left copious amounts of evidence for his existence, plus contemporaneous evidence left by others. I've read one of his books - Oliver Twist. I've heard of others, which I haven't read.

It would seem to me that the majority of the Bible was written about personal life experiences of actual people, but I guess any one can make up their own belief system on what they think the Bible's purpose is.
:rolleyes:

It's constantly amazing how you never seem to grasp the concept of evidence. There is no evidence that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Joseph ever existed, let alone experienced everything Genesis says they experienced.
 
It's constantly amazing how you never seem to grasp the concept of evidence.

Not nearly as amazing as how consistently you pretend to be uniquely intellectual in such a widely varied group. Why do you continue to interact with humans when it is so clear that you think we are all beneath you. I suggest you stick to cats.
 
Moderator Action: Stop bickering, please. I realise that this is a contentious thread, but sniping at each other will not solve anything.
 
If the Bible was not related to Christianity, but some recent archeological discovered document about our past, it would be described as one of the most interesting sources of our past ever.
Technically it was not that attached to Christianity, until the reformation and the printing press. A whole lot of people were killed trying to get it out of the past and into the present. Then along came historical criticism, and I doubt trying to discredit or bury it will change anything for future generations who accept it for what it is.

@Valka D'Ur.
There is plenty of evidence. The fact that a document which instead of using debate, or eliminated all competition, that we are used to using as an ideological filter, the publishers relied on internal means to keep the body in tack. They were not interested in providing evidence that what was being copied from generation to generation was provided. They were told to make sure no mistakes were made in the process. The Old Testament was the most copied and scribed, by several different groups, body of writing during the thousand plus years of its formation. That is what I am trying to point out. That is what the historical criticism of the 18th century brought out. I understand the claims that information may have been added or exaggerated. There is proof that several different sources attempted to maintain, while adding to this body of work new and every day experiences. But there is no proof that any information was made up as re-writing any previous history, because there was never a need to prove what was being copied down from generation to generation. There was no questioning of what was being written down. Unlike the secrecy of most ancient written or oral stories that were only given to the initiated. It was not until the creation of Latin, that the Bible was removed from public availability and only used by approved officials.

Were there times that the Jews or Hebrews attempted to hide this document from the public? Of course, but that was because the rulers did not want the public aware of what this document had to say. The process may have even been interrupted or stopped, but it was never completely killed. I do not think that it can just be relegated as a religious text though, like all religious text. It had a civil, and judicial component built in, besides the religious. Neither was it supposed to be hidden or private, but available for everyone who called themselves Hebrew or Jewish and all those they had dealings with them. The civil, judicial, and religious were all included in maintaining copies of this work from generation to generation. That was the built in check and redundancy to preserve from the beginning of the work, until it was considered closed and completed.
 
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If the Bible was discovered today and was unrelated to any existing religion, the first thing researchers would do is cross-reference it with other historical texts we have. They would notice that it doesn't really line up with a lot of historical fact and contains a lot of material that's either made up or that we didn't know about at all. They would figure out that it's a book of religious texts and try to compare it to other religious texts to figure out what the book's origins were, after it became clear that it's not a historical text but rather a holy book of some kind.

I bet they would be intrigued indeed
 
Genesis seems to be mainly about men asking their wives to pretend to be their sister in order to not get killed, despite the fact that the people they try and fool never attempt to kill them, even when they discover they've been lied to, and actually usually shower them with worldly goods. God then punishes the innocent party every time. Absolutely no idea what the moral there is supposed to be. Something like:

"Don't trust men who show up with what they claim is their sister, otherwise God will punish you."

Okay.
 
Technically it was not that attached to Christianity, until the reformation and the printing press. A whole lot of people were killed trying to get it out of the past and into the present. Then along came historical criticism, and I doubt trying to discredit or bury it will change anything for future generations who accept it for what it is.

@ValkaD'Ur.
There is plenty of evidence. The fact that a document which instead of using debate, or eliminated all competition, that we are used to using as an ideological filter, the publishers relied on internal means to keep the body in tack. They were not interested in providing evidence that what was being copied from generation to generation was provided. They were told to make sure no mistakes were made in the process. The Old Testament was the most copied and scribed, by several different groups, body of writing during the thousand plus years of its formation. That is what I am trying to point out. That is what the historical criticism of the 18th century brought out. I understand the claims that information may have been added or exaggerated. There is proof that several different sources attempted to maintain, while adding to this body of work new and every day experiences. But there is no proof that any information was made up as re-writing any previous history, because there was never a need to prove what was being copied down from generation to generation. There was no questioning of what was being written down. Unlike the secrecy of most ancient written or oral stories that were only given to the initiated. It was not until the creation of Latin, that the Bible was removed from public availability and only used by approved officials.

Were there times that the Jews or Hebrews attempted to hide this document from the public? Of course, but that was because the rulers did not want the public aware of what this document had to say. The process may have even been interrupted or stopped, but it was never completely killed. I do not think that it can just be relegated as a religious text though, like all religious text. It had a civil, and judicial component built in, besides the religious. Neither was it supposed to be hidden or private, but available for everyone who called themselves Hebrew or Jewish and all those they had dealings with them. The civil, judicial, and religious were all included in maintaining copies of this work from generation to generation. That was the built in check and redundancy to preserve from the beginning of the work, until it was considered closed and completed.

That does not meet the Valka standard of evidence, in that it doesn't support her position.

Moderator Action: Discuss the topic, not each other. ~ Arakhor
 
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Which part isn't settled yet? Don't most historical scholars agree that the Bible is a collection of religious holy books, and as such conform to the usual things you'd expect from a collection of religious holy books?
 
Which part isn't settled yet? Don't most historical scholars agree that the Bible is a collection of religious holy books, and as such conform to the usual things you'd expect from a collection of religious holy books?

Not accepting the Torah as the word of God is typical of people who aren't even circumcised :jesus:
 
Which part isn't settled yet? Don't most historical scholars agree that the Bible is a collection of religious holy books, and as such conform to the usual things you'd expect from a collection of religious holy books?

No, actually the experts say the usual things you'd expect. Generally speaking, that's why the people who acknowledge their expertise acknowledge their expertise.
 
No, actually the experts say the usual things you'd expect.

Generally speaking anyone who says: "Don't listen to the experts, they don't know anything, listen to me instead" is not worth listening to.

The experts are experts for a reason, they specialize in understanding the exact things we are discussing here. We don't.
 
Generally speaking anyone who says: "Don't listen to the experts, they don't know anything, listen to me instead" is not worth listening to.

The experts are experts for a reason, they specialize in understanding the exact things we are discussing here. We don't.

Your experts are experts because they tell you what you want to hear. While that can be a useful skill it isn't all that impressive.
 
Which part isn't settled yet? Don't most historical scholars agree that the Bible is a collection of religious holy books, and as such conform to the usual things you'd expect from a collection of religious holy books?
I guess that depends on what is a religion, what is holy, and what is a book. The proof up until earlier text were found that it was put together during the Babylonian captivity, and thus the Mesopotamian influence. There is proof that there was a body of text before that. That would rule out the confluence of mixed text at that time from other eastern religious text. In fact it could be said that the Hebrew text could have influenced other eastern religious text, instead of the other way around. There is no definitive proof, because no one probably wanted that result. I think it would be hard to separate religion from everyday culture though. All cultures claimed a connection to a previous reality that changed humanity after some major event that no modern scholars can agree on.
 
What expert has argued much less shown the flood didn't happen?

Any geologist, biologist, or physicist. Archaeologists whose period includes the time when the flood supposedly happened. Paleontologists. Probably hydrologists. Anthropologists who study the Neolithic or the Bronze Age. Just to name a few entire fields of study where acknowledging the basics of the field requires acknowledging that the flood didn't happen.
 
Quote one... The documentaries I've seen about the flood were made by researchers who think it did happen, they've investigated the Black Sea and Persian Gulf and argued rising seas were the cause. The OP is about a possible impact causing the Younger Dryas within the time frame in question.
 
That the sea level was higher at some past point was already noted by philosophers, eg specifically (at least) Xenophanes, in the 6th century BC. Afaik he saw fossilized remains of sea creatures inside mountain caves, for example.
 
Quote one... The documentaries I've seen about the flood were made by researchers who think it did happen, they've investigated the Black Sea and Persian Gulf and argued rising seas were the cause. The OP is about a possible impact causing the Younger Dryas within the time frame in question.

Ice Age is not a documentary.
 
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