The Grognards

[Rocoteh]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
sounds good to me. How many divisions did France have at its high(in this period ofcause)?

Yoda Power,

After digging around in my sources I finally found
the answer:

The French Army that invaded Russia had 31 Infantry
Divisions and 27 Cavalry Divisions.
Its obvious that the average French Infantry Division at this
time was much larger than at Waterloo:
I Corps (Davout) numbered 72 000 men in 5 Infantry Divisions
and 1 Cavalry Division. When entering the Battle of Borodino
7 September it was down to 36 300 men.

A large part of this army was foreigners.
There were Regiments and Contingents from 12 German
states, Austria, Denmark, Holland, Italy, Poland, Portugal,
Naples, Spain and Switzerland

Rocoteh

 

[mrtn]

Have you guys thought about city graphics? I may lend my hand to that. You may of course use the ordinary Industrial or Medieval ones, but at least my view of it is that there wheren't factories in all European cities at this time.

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by mrtn
Have you guys thought about city graphics? I may lend my hand to that. You may of course use the ordinary Industrial or Medieval ones, but at least my view of it is that there wheren't factories in all European cities at this time.

Actually there were really scarce and Eastern Europe still had servage. So, well, happy to welcome you and happy if you bring in your help too.

Now of course we need to figure out the different "races".
Ottomans and Barbaresc (Maghreb) would be one
Southern Europe (Spain, Portugal, all of Italy) could be one
North West Europe (France, England, Denmark, western Germany states) could be another one (most-advanced)
Eastern Europe would be the last one (Prussia, Saxe, Austria, Russia) ?

This is just a proposition, any opinions ?

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by Rocoteh
I think the greatest challenge for NAPP will be to
recreate the "big battles" like Austerlitz, Borodino,
Leipzig, Waterloo etc.

To achieve this we should maybe permit the building
of corps( in such case hit-points must represent quantity)

Thus a Prussian Brigade would have 3 hit-points and a
Prussian corps would have 12-14 hit-points.

This is crucial. We must avoid Napoleon-wars become
WW1 with continous fronts.

Rocoteh

I agree definitely about the battle idea.
Now does it mean we should have all different sizes (from regiments to corps) ? I don't think it is possible to create armies of different sizes (number of units inside) at the same time.

If brigades have different sizes in different countries it sure is a real pb.

The main advantage IMHO of the early French Imperial army was (besides its number) its speed and adaptability and the latter would be represented by armies that have the unloading (and reloading) ability but what size are they supposed to represent ?

So. regiments, brigades, divisions and corps altogether ?
There is the conscription issue as well.

 

[Rocoteh]

I think we shall make a compromise with history and
make the division basic unit representing 4 000-5 000 men.

The largest buildable unit would then be the corps
representing 16 000-20 000 men. Then there can be exceptions
with brigades and regiments, but divisions and corps should
be the rule.

With regard to use Army-type units I must come with a warning:
We (at ACW) have worked 7 months with this without
a good solution. AI refuses to build Army-type units.
Right now AI builds leaders, 10 in 10 turns at one city.
Leaders are converted to Army-type units which are
used in a not very bright way.

Rocoteh

 

[LouLong]

Well, in Conquests, armies have been modified somewhat so we can hope the AI has been changed when dealing with armies as well (= knows how to use them in a better way).

 

[Rocoteh]

LouLong,

Sounds good.

What is your opinion about division as basic unit
and the role of corps?


Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

I think the division as standard unit is the best
solution.

Remember there were great differences within
national organizations:

At Borodino French 5 th Infantry Division (Compans)
had a strenght of 8 300 men. Compare that with
French 1 th Infantry Division (Ledru) 3 000 men.

On the Russian side you have 11th Infantry Division
(Bakhtemev II) 6 300 men. Compare with 3th Infantry
Division (Konovnitsyn) 3 600 men.

To many unit organizations wll only cause confusion.


Rocoteh

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Rocoteh

To many unit organizations wll only cause confusion.

Then how about a "notional" unit -- say, one unit ~ 1,000 men.

BTW, this is a time-honored approach under just such circumstances from the ancient-and-hoary days of paper-and-cardboard wargames, whence such a notional unit might be referred to, very generically, as a "strength point". If required, having an "SP" be anywhere from 500-1500 men might be another factor to use in simulating varying levels of troop quality.

-Oz

 

[TopGun]

Loulong,
even with the limited amount of time my "real life" work schedule allows me, I would like to be available to contribute to the NAPP - a great and much needed idea, if you ask me!

Anyway, what I could help you guys with is - no, not making units, unfortunately! - civilopedia, historical context, illustrations (yep, those icons and such!), etc.

Just clue me in via PM/IM, that should work.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by LouLong


Actually there were really scarce and Eastern Europe still had servage. So, well, happy to welcome you and happy if you bring in your help too.

Now of course we need to figure out the different "races".
Ottomans and Barbaresc (Maghreb) would be one
Southern Europe (Spain, Portugal, all of Italy) could be one
North West Europe (France, England, Denmark, western Germany states) could be another one (most-advanced)
Eastern Europe would be the last one (Prussia, Saxe, Austria, Russia) ?

This is just a proposition, any opinions ?

Are we talking "era" changes, or just one city graphic for the whole period? My first thought is that era changes is unnecessary, ideas?
Assuming we don't have era changes, what about having one "culture group" being partly industrialised (Britain and maybe some more. France? The Netherlands?). I see LouLong only named four groups, so we have one left.
Did the eastern european cities look different than the western european? I can see that Orthodox (at least the Russian ones) churches would make a difference, but is there some other differences?

 

[Rocoteh]

Originally posted by ozymandias


Then how about a "notional" unit -- say, one unit ~ 1,000 men.

BTW, this is a time-honored approach under just such circumstances from the ancient-and-hoary days of paper-and-cardboard wargames, whence such a notional unit might be referred to, very generically, as a "strength point". If required, having an "SP" be anywhere from 500-1500 men might be another factor to use in simulating varying levels of troop quality.

-Oz

ozymandias,

That alternative is clearly worth to consider.
It was used in "War and Peace" (Avalon Hill) for example.

By the way, are you like me an old wargamer?


Rocoteh

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by Rocoteh

...By the way, are you like me an old wargamer?

This is a computer game site. So of course no one here has played any board/tabletop games.

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Rocoteh

By the way, are you like me an old wargamer?

Rocoteh

*creaking with age* I was playtesting for the old SPI with Jim Dunnigan & Co. as far back as 1972, and of course had some experience prior to that ...

Hmmm... Maybe I should add the Neil Young line "It's better to burn out than it is to rust" to my signature line

Best,

Oz

 

[Rocoteh]

Originally posted by mrtn
This is a computer game site. So of course no one here has played any board/tabletop games.

CIVIII and this site would not have existed
without its roots to wargaming.

Avalon Hill and the group around the first CIV fought
a long legal battle concerning the right to "Civilization".


Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

ozymandias,

Then you are an old SPI "grognard".
In fact I think you are an old staff-member.

That was positive, very positive.

Rocoteh

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Rocoteh
ozymandias,

Then you are an old SPI "grognard".
In fact I think you are an old staff-member.

That was positive, very positive.

Rocoteh

Oui, je suis un grognard although I was actually too young to be a staff member in 1972, or even to have much interest in the post-playtesting Friday night poker games. But I hung with Dunnigan, Al Nofi and others who, to me at the time, were luminaries, fine fellows all ...

... Okay I'll confess that, even sans staff status, my name is listed in the back of a game or two, and my byline was once seen in Moves magazine

Yours Grumbling Away*,

Oz


*You of course do know that the literal translation of "grognard" is "grumbler", yes?

-O.

 

[Yoda Power]

Originally posted by mrtn
Are we talking "era" changes, or just one city graphic for the whole period? My first thought is that era changes is unnecessary, ideas?
Assuming we don't have era changes, what about having one "culture group" being partly industrialised (Britain and maybe some more. France? The Netherlands?). I see LouLong only named four groups, so we have one left.
Did the eastern european cities look different than the western european? I can see that Orthodox (at least the Russian ones) churches would make a difference, but is there some other differences?

I thought about having the same cities all the way through game, with one exeption, we could add an industrial building(or industrial like) to the last eras, just to represent the advantege of this era. It was 30 years afterall.
I would´nt matter doing city graphics, but if mrtn wants to do go ahead. I think its best if its the same person who do all the city graphics, to get the same "look".

edit-Lou named 5 groups. which I agree with.

 

[Rocoteh]

Concerning "grognard" = "grumbler" I did not know that.

I live in Europa and many, many years ago in school I lost
interest for English and French since both teachers hated
me for some reason. In fact I am self-learned in English.

With regard to NAPP I think that the best solution is to
have divisions/corps and some brigades+regiments since it
will add "chrome"to the scenario.

Still I do not think we should rule out a strenght-point
solution since it would simplify things.

Rocoteh

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by mrtn
Are we talking "era" changes, or just one city graphic for the whole period? My first thought is that era changes is unnecessary, ideas?

You know -- as there seems to be something of a consensus not to "force" a recapitulation of history -- there's no reason why this scenario shouldn't end in 1848.

Granted, Napoleon died in 1821, but he was only 52, and would have been a respectable-yet-plausible 79 in 1848.

By 1848, wider forces did indeed tip nearly all of Europe towards revolution, even causing a short-lived devolution of "Austria-Hungary" into the separate Austrian Empire and Republic Of Hungary -- my point is that the political environment remained stable until that year insofar as national aspiration and expression were concerned. There's no reason the "punctuated equilibrium" of the Napoleonic Wars (and an infinitiude of other possible conflicts, which did indeed occur as Austria, Russia and Prussia all jockeying for position in Mittel Europa) couldn't have continued sans Waterloo.

This also yields a reasonable pre- and early-industrial division into two eras based around techs (if there's enthusiasm, I'm happy to track down the major "tech advances" through 1848 -- Darwin's Journey and all that -- and Lord only knows what else might have been found freeze-dried in the Siberian tundra ... ); this would make both historical and graphical sense.

Just a thought.

-- Oz