The Grognards
- Thread starter LouLong
- Start date
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
OK, most countries are agreed upon without any difficulty.
Austria, Britian, France, Prussia and Russia as the major protagonists.
Spain, Portugal, Ottomans, Sweden, Denmark-Norway and NOT the Netherlands (these were part of France soon after the revolution (Batave republic + integrated into France).
Now the others: remember this is supposed to be both a mod and a scenario. As a scenario, it can only include 31 civs but the mod can include more that will be usable partly in the other scenarios that I hope some people will decide working on.
So we could have USA as well as the different states of Germany (Bavaria, Bade, Saxony,...) and Italy (Papal States, Venice....) or the forced Napoleonic allies (Westphalia, Naples, Italy, Swiss, Poland (linked to Saxony)) depending on the period so I think we should gather as many as possible for the mod (including Barbary coast) but we have to choose up to 31 for the main scenario and to keep it playable.
That is 11 with the first and secondary powers. Now, propose your list for the others !
Austria, Britian, France, Prussia and Russia as the major protagonists.
Spain, Portugal, Ottomans, Sweden, Denmark-Norway and NOT the Netherlands (these were part of France soon after the revolution (Batave republic + integrated into France).
Now the others: remember this is supposed to be both a mod and a scenario. As a scenario, it can only include 31 civs but the mod can include more that will be usable partly in the other scenarios that I hope some people will decide working on.
So we could have USA as well as the different states of Germany (Bavaria, Bade, Saxony,...) and Italy (Papal States, Venice....) or the forced Napoleonic allies (Westphalia, Naples, Italy, Swiss, Poland (linked to Saxony)) depending on the period so I think we should gather as many as possible for the mod (including Barbary coast) but we have to choose up to 31 for the main scenario and to keep it playable.
That is 11 with the first and secondary powers. Now, propose your list for the others !
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
Thanks for the tip (and to have your experienced advice here is definitely welcome so I hope you will stick around).
Now, Britain at least will be a big island. Is it sufficent to have the AI consider it is not only a "one-continent" map. Besides, when playing TAM or MEM, the Med is often crossed by ships so that would make me consider the shape of the map acts as well (but have not decide yet what map to take).
LouLong,
Thank you. I will be around here. How much depends on
if Procifica returns to ACW. If Procifica not returns I will
close support for ACW and allocate more time to other
projects, like this.
With regard to the map I do not think Britain is enough,
but adding U.S. will make a difference.
An early existing "Suez-channel" making Africa an
separate continent in the eyes of AI, would increase
chances for naval production further more, but I guess
that idea is hard for many to accept.
Rocoteh
Thank you. I will be around here. How much depends on
if Procifica returns to ACW. If Procifica not returns I will
close support for ACW and allocate more time to other
projects, like this.
With regard to the map I do not think Britain is enough,
but adding U.S. will make a difference.
An early existing "Suez-channel" making Africa an
separate continent in the eyes of AI, would increase
chances for naval production further more, but I guess
that idea is hard for many to accept.
Rocoteh
Yoda Power
✫✫✫✫✫✫✫
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2002
- Messages
- 13,870
Im pretty sure the reason that no naval units are build in ACW is because its not the fastest way to get through the continent. In the case of the Med it is almost always the fastest way to come across.
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
There are two things I definitely cannot do myself and that would require one dedicated person each :
- the Fleet
- the Leaderheads
Fleet :
The person in charge would need to identify the number and types of vessels for the different periods, including some special ships with their names, check for graphics and ask someone to do or do him/herself the possible missing ones then to place them on the map (for later).
Leaderheads :
well, different options here (please mention what you prefer).
- just use flags (probably using the ones that will be provided in the Napoleonic scenario)
- use leaderheads if they are provided in the scenario
- (best choice IMHO) have someone create a special set of leaderheads with the same kind of graphic touch to give a sense of unity. These leaderheads would not require to be completely animated nor would they require different eras. The idea would be to have something a bit like what Gael did for the Atlantic archipelago leaderheads.
If people are interested, just post in this thread. For the fleet I know some work had already been done in the Trip's Napoleonic thread. For the leaderheads we will wait for Conquests anyway (just in case) but if someone would accept the idea beforehand, it would be nice and we can find/provide lots of art on which to base leaderheads.
- the Fleet
- the Leaderheads
Fleet :
The person in charge would need to identify the number and types of vessels for the different periods, including some special ships with their names, check for graphics and ask someone to do or do him/herself the possible missing ones then to place them on the map (for later).
Leaderheads :
well, different options here (please mention what you prefer).
- just use flags (probably using the ones that will be provided in the Napoleonic scenario)
- use leaderheads if they are provided in the scenario
- (best choice IMHO) have someone create a special set of leaderheads with the same kind of graphic touch to give a sense of unity. These leaderheads would not require to be completely animated nor would they require different eras. The idea would be to have something a bit like what Gael did for the Atlantic archipelago leaderheads.
If people are interested, just post in this thread. For the fleet I know some work had already been done in the Trip's Napoleonic thread. For the leaderheads we will wait for Conquests anyway (just in case) but if someone would accept the idea beforehand, it would be nice and we can find/provide lots of art on which to base leaderheads.
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
Should we use units or M-units for this mod. The way I see it M-unit would allow for more realism and differenciation between corps/divisions,... and technics of the different units (grenadier columns,...).
Of course if most people like the M-unit idea, it would be nice if someone would like to do them
Of course if most people like the M-unit idea, it would be nice if someone would like to do them
LouLong,
Do you intend to use hit-points as quantity factors or
quality factors? In ACW its a quantity factor (In my
personal mod its a quality factor). The hit-point is
in fact the basic unit in ACW, since during the Civil War
the standard regiment consisted of 1 000 men.
A brigade then could be 2-6 regiments, but normally
it had 4 regiments.
Thus the standard unit in ACW is a (veteran) brigade
with 4 hit-points.
I think this model could be used for this era also, even
if there were many more unit-organizations.
Or what do you think?
Edit: I hit "submit reply" before I saw Post 28.
Rocoteh
Do you intend to use hit-points as quantity factors or
quality factors? In ACW its a quantity factor (In my
personal mod its a quality factor). The hit-point is
in fact the basic unit in ACW, since during the Civil War
the standard regiment consisted of 1 000 men.
A brigade then could be 2-6 regiments, but normally
it had 4 regiments.
Thus the standard unit in ACW is a (veteran) brigade
with 4 hit-points.
I think this model could be used for this era also, even
if there were many more unit-organizations.
Or what do you think?
Edit: I hit "submit reply" before I saw Post 28.
Rocoteh
Yoda Power
✫✫✫✫✫✫✫
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2002
- Messages
- 13,870
I think we should stick to unit not M-units, I also think we should have hitpoint acording to quality, not quantity. The way I see it this would allow more flexibility(if you have a 100 rifleman unit you cant split it into two 50 riflemen units, if the unit does´nt represent any given number it would´nt matter).
Yoda Power
✫✫✫✫✫✫✫
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2002
- Messages
- 13,870
sounds good to me. How many divisions did France have at its high(in this period ofcause)?
Here are the number of regiments (not division) for the main countries. I have added the date when known
FRANCE. Total : Infantry: 223, Cavalry: 77
Infantry :
- Light infantry : 32 (1804)
- Line infantry : 112 (1806, 135 (1813).
No grenadier regiment, as grenadier were mixed in line infantry regiment.
Cavalry :
- Cuirassier : 12 (1806) 14 (1809)
- Carabiniers : 2
- Dragoon : 30
- Chasseurs : 15
- Chevau-léger lancer : 6 (created in 1811)
- Hussars : 10 (1806), 12(1810)
Guard infantry (number changed a lot during the war):
- Grenadiers : up to 50 in 1813!
- Chasseurs : up to 20
Guard cavalry:
- Horse grenadier : 2
- Chasseur : 1
- Chevaux leger lancer : 2 (3 in 1812 only )
- Dragoon : 1
- Scout : 3
ENGLAND. Total : Infantry : 107, Cavalry : 34
Infantry :
- Guard : 3
- Line : 96 ( 7 highlanders)
- Lignt infantry : 6 (1 highlanders)
- Riflemen : 2
Cavalry :
- Hussar : 0, 4(1811, created from light dragoon)
- Light dragoon : 19, 15 (1811)
- Life guard : 2
- Horse guard : 1
- Dragoon guard : 7
- Dragoon : 5
Austria had until 1809 64 infantry regiments. 5 were Wallon, 1 Italian, 1 Croat, 12 Hungarian and the others German.
Austria also had 17 bounder regiment, and 1 chasseur corps.
In 1812, Austria had 8 Cuirassiers regiments, 12 Hussar regiment 3 Ulhan regiments, 6 dragoon regiments, and 6 Chevauxleger.
In 1805, Russia had 13 Grenadiers regiments, 83 musketeers regiments and 26 chasseurs regiments.
Russian cavalry had 6 Cuirassiers regiments, 30 Dragoon regiments, 8 hussars regiments, 2 horse regiment (ulhan).
In 1812, there were 12 ulhan regiments, with the converion of 7 dragoon regiment to ulhan. 8 other Dragoon regiments were converted into chasseurs à cheval.
The Russian Imperial Guard had in 1811:
- 3 heavy infantry regiment
- 3 chasseur regiment
- 2 cuirassier regiments (a third un 1813)
- 1 hussar regiment
- 1 cossack regiment
- 1 ulhan regiment
-1 dragoon regiment
- 1 chasseur a cheval regiment (1814)
Russia also had 10 cossacks regiments
To finish, here are the russian names of cavalry (but I don't speak Russian, so I hope it's correct)
- cuirassier = kyrasi
- dragoon = dragounski
- hussar = gousari
- horse = konni
- chasseurs à cheval = konno iégurski
PRUSSIA total : Infantry : 60, Cavalry : 19 to 35
Infantry
- total 60 (no details, sorry)
Cavalry, 1792-1807
- Cuirassiers : 13
- Dragoon : 12
- Hussar : 10
Cavalry,1808-1812
- Cuirassiers : 4
- Dragoon: 6
- Hussars : 7
- Ulhan : 2
Cavalry, 1813-1815
- Guard : 4
- Cuirassiers : 4
- Dragoon : 8
- Hussars : 12
- Ulhan : 4
SPAIN :
Infantry :
- Line regiment : 35
- Light regiment : 12
Cavalry :
- Dragoon : 8
- Line : 13
POLAND (Grand Duchy of Warsaw)
Infantry
- 22 regiments
Cavalry :
- Chasseur : 3
- Hussar : 2
- Cuirassiers : 1
- Ulhan : 14
BAVARIA
Infantry :
- line : 11
- light : 6
Cavalry :
- Dragoon : 2 (0 from 1807)
- Chevau-leger : 4 (6 from 1807)
- Hussar : 2 (from 1813)
- Ulhan : 1 (from 1813)
FRANCE. Total : Infantry: 223, Cavalry: 77
Infantry :
- Light infantry : 32 (1804)
- Line infantry : 112 (1806, 135 (1813).
No grenadier regiment, as grenadier were mixed in line infantry regiment.
Cavalry :
- Cuirassier : 12 (1806) 14 (1809)
- Carabiniers : 2
- Dragoon : 30
- Chasseurs : 15
- Chevau-léger lancer : 6 (created in 1811)
- Hussars : 10 (1806), 12(1810)
Guard infantry (number changed a lot during the war):
- Grenadiers : up to 50 in 1813!
- Chasseurs : up to 20
Guard cavalry:
- Horse grenadier : 2
- Chasseur : 1
- Chevaux leger lancer : 2 (3 in 1812 only )
- Dragoon : 1
- Scout : 3
ENGLAND. Total : Infantry : 107, Cavalry : 34
Infantry :
- Guard : 3
- Line : 96 ( 7 highlanders)
- Lignt infantry : 6 (1 highlanders)
- Riflemen : 2
Cavalry :
- Hussar : 0, 4(1811, created from light dragoon)
- Light dragoon : 19, 15 (1811)
- Life guard : 2
- Horse guard : 1
- Dragoon guard : 7
- Dragoon : 5
Austria had until 1809 64 infantry regiments. 5 were Wallon, 1 Italian, 1 Croat, 12 Hungarian and the others German.
Austria also had 17 bounder regiment, and 1 chasseur corps.
In 1812, Austria had 8 Cuirassiers regiments, 12 Hussar regiment 3 Ulhan regiments, 6 dragoon regiments, and 6 Chevauxleger.
In 1805, Russia had 13 Grenadiers regiments, 83 musketeers regiments and 26 chasseurs regiments.
Russian cavalry had 6 Cuirassiers regiments, 30 Dragoon regiments, 8 hussars regiments, 2 horse regiment (ulhan).
In 1812, there were 12 ulhan regiments, with the converion of 7 dragoon regiment to ulhan. 8 other Dragoon regiments were converted into chasseurs à cheval.
The Russian Imperial Guard had in 1811:
- 3 heavy infantry regiment
- 3 chasseur regiment
- 2 cuirassier regiments (a third un 1813)
- 1 hussar regiment
- 1 cossack regiment
- 1 ulhan regiment
-1 dragoon regiment
- 1 chasseur a cheval regiment (1814)
Russia also had 10 cossacks regiments
To finish, here are the russian names of cavalry (but I don't speak Russian, so I hope it's correct)
- cuirassier = kyrasi
- dragoon = dragounski
- hussar = gousari
- horse = konni
- chasseurs à cheval = konno iégurski
PRUSSIA total : Infantry : 60, Cavalry : 19 to 35
Infantry
- total 60 (no details, sorry)
Cavalry, 1792-1807
- Cuirassiers : 13
- Dragoon : 12
- Hussar : 10
Cavalry,1808-1812
- Cuirassiers : 4
- Dragoon: 6
- Hussars : 7
- Ulhan : 2
Cavalry, 1813-1815
- Guard : 4
- Cuirassiers : 4
- Dragoon : 8
- Hussars : 12
- Ulhan : 4
SPAIN :
Infantry :
- Line regiment : 35
- Light regiment : 12
Cavalry :
- Dragoon : 8
- Line : 13
POLAND (Grand Duchy of Warsaw)
Infantry
- 22 regiments
Cavalry :
- Chasseur : 3
- Hussar : 2
- Cuirassiers : 1
- Ulhan : 14
BAVARIA
Infantry :
- line : 11
- light : 6
Cavalry :
- Dragoon : 2 (0 from 1807)
- Chevau-leger : 4 (6 from 1807)
- Hussar : 2 (from 1813)
- Ulhan : 1 (from 1813)
Oh, for pictures of units, check Trip's scenario old thread, I had scanned many pictures here.
Yoda Power
✫✫✫✫✫✫✫
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2002
- Messages
- 13,870
Thanks steph. How is a division composed?
The French army at Waterloo 1815 numbered 125 000 men.
When it crossed Niemen River June 1812 it had 513 479
Infantry/Foot Artillery, 98 379 Cavalry/Horse Artillery,
1 242 Field Guns, 130 Siege Guns,32 700 Vehicles,
25 000 Drivers/Grooms, 183 911 Army Horses and
150 000 Draft Horses. (When the Battle of Borodino started
7 September 1812 more than 50% of the horses had
starved to death)
If you use the figures from Waterloo it would mean 100
Infantry Divisions and 50 Cavalry Divisions.
That is unlikely since you had a "teeth to tail ratio" for
such a gigantic campaign. (I will look more in my sources
to see if I find the exact number of Divisions).
By the way during WW2 only 23% of U.S. army was "teeth",
that is in combat formations.
Rocoteh
When it crossed Niemen River June 1812 it had 513 479
Infantry/Foot Artillery, 98 379 Cavalry/Horse Artillery,
1 242 Field Guns, 130 Siege Guns,32 700 Vehicles,
25 000 Drivers/Grooms, 183 911 Army Horses and
150 000 Draft Horses. (When the Battle of Borodino started
7 September 1812 more than 50% of the horses had
starved to death)
If you use the figures from Waterloo it would mean 100
Infantry Divisions and 50 Cavalry Divisions.
That is unlikely since you had a "teeth to tail ratio" for
such a gigantic campaign. (I will look more in my sources
to see if I find the exact number of Divisions).
By the way during WW2 only 23% of U.S. army was "teeth",
that is in combat formations.
Rocoteh
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
Well, thanks for the info.
But I guess it would be better for people specialized into that to figure that part out (like you and Steph). After all I hope other people will make it into the team. I don't want (or cannot) have it my personal project only. Thanks to let me know if you are interested in a special field so that I can "assign" members to certian topics.
Here are the pbs I have. Some regiments were very special (guard for example) and it would be difficult to represent them within divisions or brigades. Now of course regiments are probably too small to be represented by units (or we would reach fairly quickly the maximum number of troops allowed).
I don't think we should care so much about the "teeth" ratio you mentionned since this cannot be represented in Civ3. Or did you have something else in mind (like city garrisons as opposed to field troops as well).
Now you consider higher hitpoints for quantity only meaning crack troops (grenadiers and especially guards) should have higher stats, correct ?
What about tech advancement ? If the project starts in 1789 I think it is needed. Otherwise ? Are there any major improvments during that period ? I know there are uniform changes which means we could require a tech tree though.
ADVERTISEMENT : Is there a good palette player who would like to modify the hussars from Cossacks to make them fit with Napoleonic armies ?
But I guess it would be better for people specialized into that to figure that part out (like you and Steph). After all I hope other people will make it into the team. I don't want (or cannot) have it my personal project only. Thanks to let me know if you are interested in a special field so that I can "assign" members to certian topics.
Here are the pbs I have. Some regiments were very special (guard for example) and it would be difficult to represent them within divisions or brigades. Now of course regiments are probably too small to be represented by units (or we would reach fairly quickly the maximum number of troops allowed).
I don't think we should care so much about the "teeth" ratio you mentionned since this cannot be represented in Civ3. Or did you have something else in mind (like city garrisons as opposed to field troops as well).
Now you consider higher hitpoints for quantity only meaning crack troops (grenadiers and especially guards) should have higher stats, correct ?
What about tech advancement ? If the project starts in 1789 I think it is needed. Otherwise ? Are there any major improvments during that period ? I know there are uniform changes which means we could require a tech tree though.
ADVERTISEMENT : Is there a good palette player who would like to modify the hussars from Cossacks to make them fit with Napoleonic armies ?
Yoda Power
✫✫✫✫✫✫✫
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2002
- Messages
- 13,870
Well im joining as a member of this project. As you know im not that big on Napoleonic history, but I can do other things
How's this? 
European City Population Stats in 1815
Ca. 1.25 million:
London
Ca. 500,000:
Paris
Naples
Constantinople
Ca. 250,000:
Amsterdam
Vienna
Cairo
St. Petersburg
Moscow
Ca. 100,000:
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Dublin
Liverpool
Manchester
Birmingham
Bristol
Brussels
Rouen
Nantes
Bordeaux
Lyons
Marseilles
Barcelona
Madrid
Valencia
Lisbon
Seville
Cadiz
Milan
Turin
Genoa
Venice
Florence
Rome
Palermo
Tunis
Stockholm
Copenhagen
Berlin
Warsaw
Prague
Budapest
Smyrna
Damascus
Tunis
Ca. 60,000:
Limerick
Cork
Leeds
Sheffield
Plymouth
Ghent
Lille
Rotterdam
Antwerp
Liege
Strasbourg
Toulouse
Oporto
Granada
Malaga
Fez
Algiers
Konigsberg
Dresden
Breslau
Munich
Lvov
Verona
Bologna
Messina
Catania
Bursa
Aleppo
Cities under pop ca. 50,000 available upon request
BTW N. African States ca. 1815 were:
Sharifate of Morocco
Regency of Algiers
Beylik of Tunis
Pashalik of Tripoli
and the ever-popular Ottoman Empire
Have Fun!
-Oz
European City Population Stats in 1815
Ca. 1.25 million:
London
Ca. 500,000:
Paris
Naples
Constantinople
Ca. 250,000:
Amsterdam
Vienna
Cairo
St. Petersburg
Moscow
Ca. 100,000:
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Dublin
Liverpool
Manchester
Birmingham
Bristol
Brussels
Rouen
Nantes
Bordeaux
Lyons
Marseilles
Barcelona
Madrid
Valencia
Lisbon
Seville
Cadiz
Milan
Turin
Genoa
Venice
Florence
Rome
Palermo
Tunis
Stockholm
Copenhagen
Berlin
Warsaw
Prague
Budapest
Smyrna
Damascus
Tunis
Ca. 60,000:
Limerick
Cork
Leeds
Sheffield
Plymouth
Ghent
Lille
Rotterdam
Antwerp
Liege
Strasbourg
Toulouse
Oporto
Granada
Malaga
Fez
Algiers
Konigsberg
Dresden
Breslau
Munich
Lvov
Verona
Bologna
Messina
Catania
Bursa
Aleppo
Cities under pop ca. 50,000 available upon request
BTW N. African States ca. 1815 were:
Sharifate of Morocco
Regency of Algiers
Beylik of Tunis
Pashalik of Tripoli
and the ever-popular Ottoman Empire
Have Fun!
-Oz
