The Grognards

[LouLong]

@ Ozy : thanks for the stats. I will try my best while doing the map so that European cities cannot grow too much and have roughly the good population. I will have to tweak some resources (a bit like Tet in his mod) to get the good growth potential as well.
But cities in Civ3 include the countryside too. So I will consider densities too and I will avoid "giants" like Sweden in some scenarios ( )
About the precision of the map I 'd say : Do not fear, my friend. If there is one thing I am pretty good at, it is positionning accurate histrorical cities (and I have pretty good sources too).

@ Steph : yes, you are right about the Prussians and drafting.

And I agree about having non-French units becoming stronger with time. French troops will remain the same though and not decline : their relative power will shrink or even go reverse if the others progress anyway. And if the French player tries to invade Russia, he will likely have to build a large army of conscripts back in the French territories which will make him have a lower army on average. Don't you agree ?
Edit : just saw a latest post, looks like we agree on that one.

About hussars, think we can use the converted ones from Cossacks alright ?

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by LouLong
So my question still remains : were there any major upgrades during the war (technics, not tactics).

Hmmm...

1798: British introduce wartime income tax.

1799: Rosetta Stone discovered (Rosetta Stone = Resource + Wonder "Heiroglyph Translation"); also 1799, a perfectly preserved mammoth is found in Siberia (yeah, I don't know what to do with this one either )

Eli Whitney first made muskets with interchangeable parts in 1800; I'm not certain how fast this spread.

1801: Bank Of France founded ("Central Bank" small wonder?)

Robert Fulton's first steam-powered boat: 1803. (First European IIRC is the British "Comet" in 1812.)

Also 1803: Henry Shrapnel invents the shell (nope, not kidding )

1805: British army introduces Congreve rockets (also eponymous: named after their inventor, Sir William Congreve).

Also 1805: morphine isolated (could yield "Battlefield Medecine")

1807: Great Britain prohibits slave trade.

Also 1807: street gaslight is introduced in London ("Police Station"?)

1808: Ships iron anchor-chains patented in Great Britain.

1809: Braille invented.

Canned food comes on the scene in 1810.

1811 "event": Luddites destroy machinery in North England.

First steam-operated printing press: 1814, "The London Times".

First steam-powered warship, the USS Fulton (38 tons): 1815

Kaleidoscope invented in 1816

1818 The USS Savannah is the first steamship to cross the Atlantic (26 days) (a Wonder?)

1819 -- Danish scientist Hans Oersted discovers electromagnetism, followed in 1820 by (another eponym) Andre Ampere's "Laws Of The Electrodynamic Action"; followed by Faraday's discovery of the fundamentals of electromagnetic rotation in 1821 ...

Sneaking ahead a bit, Charles Babbage tries his hand at the first "computer" in 1823; Faraday liquifies chlorine ("Sanitation"?)

1825 - Stockton-Darlington RR first to carry passengers (world's first iron RR bridge had been built for this line in 1822).


Hopefully this all helps --

Oz

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by ozymandias
also 1799, a perfectly preserved mammoth is found in Siberia (yeah, I don't know what to do with this one either )

Maybe we can use this as the first step to make dinausor units ?

 

[Yoda Power]

oz-great list, we could make some good techs and buildings from that

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
actually drafting could be a tech. France(and Prussia perhaps) can just draft from the start of the game. Only and idea.

Prussia should start later. For the 1813 campaign, only 22000 volunteers were available, and Prussia had to rely on 120000 troops from the Landwehr.

 

[Yoda Power]

Originally posted by Steph

Prussia should start later. For the 1813 campaign, only 22000 volunteers were available, and Prussia had to rely on 120000 troops from the Landwehr.

France and Prussia should start with a non-era tech that enables drafting, however Prussia will only get draftable troops after a certain year.

 

[LouLong]

I think it is even easier. Just make some units conscriptable (strange word) : French ones and Prussian ones after 1812.

BTW was the landwehr really used in large combat or were they more fixed to defend the country ?

 

[Rocoteh]

A note on organization:

At Waterloo an French Infantry Division had an
average of 4 000 men.

A Prussian Brigade had about 6 000 men, but there were
exceptions: 1 Brigade (Steinmetz) had 8 600 men.

Rocoteh

 

[Steph]

Some army lists for the Confederacy of the Rhine :
- Bavaraia, 30000 men, 12 line inf rgt, 6 light inf rgt, 2 dragoon rgt and 4 chevaux leger (1806 to 1811), from 1811 6 chevaux legers, 1 hussard rgtfrom 1813, then 2 in 1815, 1 ulhan rgt from 1813. Bavaria was allied to France from 1816 to 1813.

- Wurtemberg, French ally 1806-1813. 12 000 men, 8 line inf rgt, 2 chasseur btn, 1 light inf rgt, 14 cavalry regiment,

- Hesse Darmstadt : 3 inf rgt, 3 cav rgt

- Westphalie : 8 line inf rgt, 4 light inf rgt, 3 guard btn, 2 chevau legers rgt, 2 cuirassiers, 2 hussars. Total 25 000 men

- Mecklembourg Schwerin : 1900 men
- Mecklembourg Strelitz = 400 men.
- Wurtzbourg : 1 inf rgt + 1 cav
- Lippe-Detmold : 500 men
- Schaumbourg-Lippe : 150 men
- Schawrzbourg - Sonderhausen : 325 men
- Schawrzbourg - Rudolstadt: 325 men
-Clèves-Berg : 5000 men, 4 inf rgt, 1 cav rgt
- Nassau: 2 inf rgt, 1 cav rgt
- Bade : 8000 men: 4 inf rgt, 2 cav rgt
- Waldeck : 400 men
- Reuss : 450 men
- Oldenbourg : 800 men
- Anhalt - Dessau : 350 men
- Anhalt-Bernbourg : 240 men
- Anhalt- Koethen : 210 mens

- Saxony : 12 (8 later) line inf rgt, 2 light inf rgt, 1 rgt of lifeguard, 2 cuirassiers rgt, 4 chevau legers, 1 hussar.

Conclusion : we could have at most 4 German civ : Westphalia, Bavaria, Wurtemberg and Saxony. The others are a bit to small.

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by LouLong
I think it is even easier. Just make some units conscriptable (strange word) : French ones and Prussian ones after 1812.

BTW was the landwehr really used in large combat or were they more fixed to defend the country ?

They were present at Waterloo. They didn't win the day all by themselves of course.

 

[Yoda Power]

Originally posted by Steph
Conclusion : we could have at most 4 German civ : Westphalia, Bavaria, Wurtemberg and Saxony. The others are a bit to small.

but the other can still be placed on many of the maps. So I suggest we put them together with the nearest of the 4 states you mentioned. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Rocoteh]

Originally posted by Steph


They were present at Waterloo. They didn't win the day all by themselves of course.

Comment on Landwehr at Waterloo:

A Prussian Brigade would consist of 2-3 Regiments.
Normally 1 of these Regiments was Landwehr.

With regard to cavalry, about 30% was Landwehr.


Rocoteh

 

[Steph]

The others could be there as cites, but no independant civilizations

 

[Rocoteh]

I think the greatest challenge for NAPP will be to
recreate the "big battles" like Austerlitz, Borodino,
Leipzig, Waterloo etc.

To achieve this we should maybe permit the building
of corps( in such case hit-points must represent quantity)

Thus a Prussian Brigade would have 3 hit-points and a
Prussian corps would have 12-14 hit-points.

This is crucial. We must avoid Napoleon-wars become
WW1 with continous fronts.

Rocoteh

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Rocoteh
I think the greatest challenge for NAPP will be to
recreate the "big battles" like Austerlitz, Borodino,
Leipzig, Waterloo etc.

[...]

This is crucial. We must avoid Napoleon-wars become
WW1 with continous fronts.

Rocoteh

What about starting with "army" (= corps equivalent?) in play and have them buildable as well?

 

[Rocoteh]

Corps was normally the largest operational unit, but I agree
they could be at start units and be buildable.


Rocoteh

 

[test_specimen]

In Austria they had a good period in the 18th century: children were required to go to school until a certain age, influence of the church was reduced, a military academy was founded in Wiener Neustadt and the farmers were less taxed. I'm not sure if you need any of this, but since you linked this thread in the history forum...

Austrian General is, off course Mack. The Austrian Emperor was, at that time, Franz. While Napoleon resided in Vienna archduke Karl blockaded the transport of food and caused a famine. Napoleon was a strange occupier: he left the 10.000 men of the Austrian national guard armed during the occupation. The reaction of the population was divided; in Vienna he seemed to have support of them, while in Tyrol Andreas Hofer incited guerilla warfare against him. (You could probably make a unit of this, the fight against Napoleon is still remembered and celebrated in Tyrol.) There were two groups: "Schützen" (36.000)and "Landsturm" (40.000).

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by test_specimen
Austrian General is, off course Mack. The Austrian Emperor was, at that time, Franz. While Napoleon resided in Vienna archduke Karl blockaded the transport of food and caused a famine. Napoleon was a strange occupier: he left the 10.000 men of the Austrian national guard armed during the occupation. The reaction of the population was divided; in Vienna he seemed to have support of them, while in Tyrol Andreas Hofer incited guerilla warfare against him. (You could probably make a unit of this, the fight against Napoleon is still remembered and celebrated in Tyrol.)

That is an important idea. Should we use the generals as the leaders or immediately as armies, I mean name the original armies (I agree with Rocoteh, my idea was to create armies easily to create large epic conflicts) ?

About Hoffer I planned on making him a leader but maybe he could be some kind of early partisan unit. Too bad we won't have triggers otherwise his capture and execution by the French could have triggered an event of some kind.

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by LouLong


That is an important idea. Should we use the generals as the leaders or immediately as armies, I mean name the original armies (I agree with Rocoteh, my idea was to create armies easily to create large epic conflicts) ?

About Hoffer I planned on making him a leader but maybe he could be some kind of early partisan unit. Too bad we won't have triggers otherwise his capture and execution by the French could have triggered an event of some kind.

About this (really, about guerillas in general) I've been mulling over the notion that they really do tend to be tied to one area for obvious reasons (it's their homeland; etc.). The approach I'm considering (for another mod ...) requires pre-placement of the guerillas, as they have MF=0 BUT they have a bombard strength, a range = their operational area, and a ZOC.

Thoughts?

-Oz

 

[Rocoteh]

Unit organizations were different, but nearly all states
had the corps as the largest operational unit ( in fact armies
were counted in corps and not in divisions as late as 1914.
2 months ago leading U.S generals ceased to count the
U.S. army in divisions and instead started to count in brigades.
If this will spread to other NATO nations remains to see)

Anyway, having corps as the largest start and buildable unit
have advantages: Different unit organizations will not matter.
(Such as Prussian brigades were larger than French divisions).

An example from Waterloo:

Prussian III corps (Thielmann) 24 000 men and 48 guns

9th Brigade (Borcke) 6 750 men
10th Brigade (Kampfen) 4 050 men
11th Brigade (Luck) 3 650 men
12th Brigade (Stulpnagel) 6 200 men
Reserve Cavalry (Hobe) 2 400 men

I think we should break out the cavalry. Then we have
a unit with 10-11 hitpoints (if its a regular unit).

French II corps (Reille) 25 000 men and 46 guns.

5th Division (Bachelu) 4 100 men
6th Division (Jerome Napoleon) 7 800 men
7th Division (Girard) 3 900 men
9th Division (Foy) 4 800 men
2nd Cavalry Division (Pire) 2 000 men

Again I think we should break out cavalry.
This would also result in a unit with 10-11 hitpoints.


Rocoteh