The hate for Civ7 will end the series, if not soon then eventually

aelf

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It's late, so I'm going to have to follow up with a much longer post tomorrow (I will try). I'm not just saying things. I will do my best to outline a macro perspective of what is happening. But, in short, rooting for a particular series is a dicey prospect. In the marketplace, products and franchises are subject to the forces of creative destruction. A popular franchise will eventually fail, despite how much we want it not to, and new, likely different, ones will take its place. And the seeds of its failure are planted by success. The more there is at stake (i.e. the bigger the customer base), the more pronounced the issues threatening its longevity will be.
As promised in the reception thread, here's a more substantive post on what I think is going on in the bigger picture pertaining to the topic.

First, we have to acknowledge that Civ is not some kind of special case, and while we are all tempted to respond to developments about it emotionally due to our own personal bias towards it, to obtain useful insights, we have to take a step back and see things for what they are. Yes, this will be a meta discussion. But discussions about the game's prospects, reception, and commercial viability are meta discussions. And instead of a meta discussion based off of shaky empirical or circumstantial evidence with any linkage to the game's content itself being influenced by personal likes and dislikes, I want to raise the bar a bit.

Second, I think it's safe to say that, in general, people tend to dislike change, especially when it comes to something they're comfortable with. If you disagree with this, you should probably stop reading here. But you may want to peruse relevant literature on this topic (such as this).

With that, I think we can start with an illustrative example of the Heroes of Might and Magic series. Heroes of Might and Magic 3 might be one of the best turn-based strategy games of all time. Compared to its predecessors, it's simply bigger and better. By the time all the official expansion packs had been released, it's practically massive. So what could the developers do for the next iteration of the series? An even bigger game - more factions, more buildings, more creatures, more artifacts? It would really start to get unwieldy. There was not a whole lot more room to grow in those simple directions, not for a brand new entry to the series. So what did they do? They decided to streamline major parts of the game and add interesting, meaningful decisions at each stage. And lots of players hated the changes. Lots of them had good experiences with the series that culminated in HoMM3. They had certain ideas of what the series was about, and the changes, while not really deviating from the flavour of the series much, didn't conform to those ideas. They just wanted more of what HoMM3 offered, although how a new viable game could improve on that entry substantially was a difficult question. So HoMM4 is, by and large, considered a failure.*

*Of course, the thing that truly spelled doom for it was 3DO's financial troubles. But after the success of HoMM3, HoMM4 was definitely not close to being as successful. Sounds familiar?

HoMM4 was, in some ways, a victim of HoMM3's success. Its predecessor was so iconic that the many people who loved HoMM3 expected a sequel that was could satisfy their wants in the same ways. They rejected streamlining, for example, because it reduced the variety of creatures you could recruit in one town since you had to choose between Building A and Building B. A design decision that introduced meaningful decision-making and allowed new features to shine more (fielding heroes on the battlefield) was disliked because players saw it purely as a reduction, a downgrade.

And I contend that the Civilization series is going down this route.

Civ6 is not, I'd argue, as iconic as HoMM3 was as an entry in a series. But it does have a much bigger playerbase than its predecessors. Many people love it. But, again, with success comes a price. Its many players are comfortable with what it offers, have formed ideas about what Civ games are or ought to be about based on it. Yes, there have been substantial changes introduced to the series previously. But not as much was at stake back then. Imagine the furore today if something as drastic as 1UPT was introduced in Civ7 (maybe we don't need to). Each time substantial changes are introduced, the series loses some players and has to make up for it by winning over new players. But what happens when the playerbase is huge and comprises a large proportion of the available players out there?

The immediately commercially safe solution is to make Civ6 2.0 as a new entry. Don't rock the boat, introduce minor changes and improvements, maybe in a new skin. Indeed, a majority of players would approve of that approach. But there's a problem with that. Developing a game at this scale is a multi-year project. It's waterfall as waterfall can be. You can't release minor updates that change things here and there until you get a brand new Civ7. And if you do decide early on to make Civ 6 2.0, how would you know it's future proof? What if competitors innovated successfully within the next several years and you'll be releasing a game based on a decade-old model? And you don't have the luxury of simply changing the time period the game depicts to keep it fresh, like say Call of Duty or FIFA. So there's risk in being conservative too - the risk that your product is already stale when it's taken out of the oven. So you gotta try to innovate, you have to decide to do so early in a multi-year process, and you have to take the risk that players might dislike the new things.

And then what happens? As it turns out, players do dislike them in Civ7. Of course, there are problems with the execution. But a content analysis of reviews that was done elsewhere shows that a good half of negative reviews talk about the changes, not merely execution or UI issues. Is there a possibility that better execution would have made the changes more palatable? Sure. But that question is academic now. Either players will come to accept them as time goes by and improvements are made, or they won't. And if I base my prediction on the current discourse, I find it hard to be optimistic.

If that's the case, where would it leave us? If investment is still forthcoming, the logical thing would be for Firaxis to make Civ8 a lot like Civ6. Maybe introduce a few well-liked features from Civ7. Would that be successful? Maybe. By then they'd be a new generation of players who haven't played Civ6, so it'll be fresh to them. But then would happen for Civ9? Do the same song and dance?

As I mentioned, Civ is not some special case, and products and franchises are subject to creative destruction. If a series can't innovate because of the baggage it carries, it will eventually become outdated and be replaced by competitors. Will we be lucky enough to have Civ9 before that happens?

This is what makes rooting for a series a dicey prospect. We might love it and want it to continue. But can it escape the usual traps and eventual decay? Judging by how people react to Civ7, I suspect not. And, yes, nobody can control how people feel about the game. Players will like or dislike a product as they will, but the pattern of their preferences drives that very same process of decay. And I think what we're seeing now is that process taking root.

Whether you like Civ7 or not, you should entertain possibility that we're seeing the beginning of the end.
 
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Thanks for the thoughtful post. Figuring out what people want is really hard, but it’s possible. Dungeons and Dragons is a a storied franchise that has had ups and downs, periods of love and hate. But sometimes the people in charge get the new edition right in a way that really resonates with people both commercially and critically. I can’t even really think of any long running franchises that were only “up” periods and never had any widespread fan hate. Lord of the Rings was close, but the people in charge of the Hobbit films squandered that. But I bet there will be another up period. Comic book movies were largely seen as trash until Marvel, but are headed towards being seen that way again.. I doubt forever though. None of these recoveries were from figuring out the lowest common denominator and not changing anything, but neither were they fans making the best of or trying to stay positive about a mediocre product.

So in those down periods where fans hated it, was it the fault of the fans for wanting things the creators didn’t want or know how to provide? I don’t really know, I guess you could also just see it as cycles or people who shouldn’t have been at the helm of something beloved. It’s complicated. Some recoveries of beloved franchises take a generation because of how badly they were mishandled.
 
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While you make good points about successful games having a lifespan, would the naysayers who didn’t like Civ I ever believed that Civ would be around thirty years later? There are a lots of changes that need to be made to Civ Vii, but for one thing, I’ve not enjoyed a military focused game this much since Civ IV. I could go on and on about the good and bad of Civ vii, but it seems that Firaxis is responding to fan’s issues with the game and that gives me hope that it will continue to improve.
 
Whether you like Civ7 or not, you should entertain possibility that we're seeing the beginning of the end.
To which I have to add:

So what?

IF the entire Civ franchise goes up the spout because people didn't like Civ VII, then you can be sure that someone will come up with a successor, and very fast. Any set of games that has managed to define a genre - 4X Historical - for 30 years will NOT disappear without a trace. It will be Succeeded/Supplanted by something that attracts the gamer base better, and the series of Civish 4X Historical games that have sprung up in the last few years show that some Money People believe there is a market there, and so whether it is called 'Civilization' or not, the Civ-type of game is not going to disappear regardless of what happens with Civ VII.
 
Civ VII is a good game. Is it better than Civ V or Civ VI? Is it worse? Idk. But it's a good game.

But a content analysis of reviews that was done elsewhere shows that a good half of negative reviews talk about the changes, not merely execution or UI issues.

I mean, yeah, this is the thing. It's obvious from reading criticism that there are a lot of people out there who hate the idea of civ-switching and were simply never going to be ok with it. Many "critiques" of the game don't really make sense and come off as flimsy justifications from people who essentially decided ahead of time that they weren't going to like it.

It sucks that there are so many people out there who are too set on hating change to see the game for what it is. I don't know how many of them will eventually give in and actually give the game a real chance. But I expect that Civ VII will find its audience one way or another, simply because it is in fact a good and fun game.
 
As someone who has been in the internet gaming space for 15 years, it has shown me that deaths of major gaming giants are slow, self-inflicted burns.

But that same amount of time and as also being a Nintendo fan for double that time has shown me that gaming companies and franchises can and absolutely have been brought back from the brink. It just all depends on what the executives do.

That's the problem with declaring it the beginning of the end now, because FIrexaxis might bounce back and make VII one of the best games of all time with improvements and DLC, they could screw it all up and come back strong with VIII, VII might end up muddling along as a cult classic. We don't know because it's too early in VII's lifespan to say whether it is or not.
 
Second, I think it's safe to say that, in general, people tend to dislike change, especially when it comes to something they're comfortable with. If you disagree with this, you should probably stop reading here. But you may want to peruse relevant literature on this topic (such as this).
There lies your basic error. If people disliked change, why would Civs 2 to 6 have been successful with all the changes they introduced? If you were right no gaming series could be successful, still here we are at iteration 7. The question is do you change things that improve the game for your target group or do you worsen things? The overall reception of Civ 7 by the players indicates the latter.
 
Is there a different better example where fan hate rather than a low quality product ended a popular franchise permanently, and where nobody else took up the mantle? Just that franchise is dead forever, killed by its ignorant fans who couldn’t appreciate something amazing?
 
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Is there a different better example where fan hate rather than a low quality product ended a popular franchise permanently, and where nobody else took up the mantle? Just that franchise is dead forever, killed by its ignorant fans who couldn’t appreciate something amazing?
Sly Cooper and Golden Sun are close, but they aren't in the same vein as Civ because they are very much niche series. Also, Banjo & Kazooie come to mind, but again, niche.

I can't really think of a gaming franchise of this size that has died off because of fan hate and not poor product.
 
I - as a player - really like Civ7 in its core concepts. I just wish they'd taken more time and released a proper polished version around say Christmas this year. I am no expert in this, but with player numbers this low, they really need to turn the tide somehow in a radical manner. Otherwise the studio will not be able to justify pumping the necessary ressources into a game only few people play ...
 
It hasn't even ended. An attempt at a reboot is coming out this year: https://store.steampowered.com/app/3105440/Heroes_of_Might_and_Magic_Olden_Era/
Though that reboot is close to a remake of HoMM3...and much less building on HoMM6/7 (which were IMO the real blows to the series). Yes, HoMM4 was an experiment, which wasn't sucessful on whole...but at least it brought some gameplay innovation (which was partly kept) and paved the way for HoMM5, which comes 2nd in popularity of the series. Compared to 4, the 6th and 7th part changed the game differently...but IMO in a real bad way: Meta reward systems, mandatory 3rd party accounts, away from the sandbox to a streamlined/railroaded gameplay...
 
As promised in the reception thread, here's a more substantive post on what I think is going on in the bigger picture pertaining to the topic.

First, we have to acknowledge that Civ is not some kind of special case, and while we are all tempted to respond to developments about it emotionally due to our own personal bias towards it, to obtain useful insights, we have to take a step back and see things for what they are. Yes, this will be a meta discussion. But discussions about the game's prospects, reception, and commercial viability are meta discussions. And instead of a meta discussion based off of shaky empirical or circumstantial evidence with any linkage to the game's content itself being influenced by personal likes and dislikes, I want to raise the bar a bit.

Second, I think it's safe to say that, in general, people tend to dislike change, especially when it comes to something they're comfortable with. If you disagree with this, you should probably stop reading here. But you may want to peruse relevant literature on this topic (such as this).

With that, I think we can start with an illustrative example of the Heroes of Might and Magic series. Heroes of Might and Magic 3 might be one of the best turn-based strategy games of all time. Compared to its predecessors, it's simply bigger and better. By the time all the official expansion packs had been released, it's practically massive. So what could the developers do for the next iteration of the series? An even bigger game - more factions, more buildings, more creatures, more artifacts? It would really start to get unwieldy. There was not a whole lot more room to grow in those simple directions, not for a brand new entry to the series. So what did they do? They decided to streamline major parts of the game and add interesting, meaningful decisions at each stage. And lots of players hated the changes. Lots of them had good experiences with the series that culminated in HoMM3. They had certain ideas of what the series was about, and the changes, while not really deviating from the flavour of the series much, didn't conform to those ideas. They just wanted more of what HoMM3 offered, although how a new viable game could improve on that entry substantially was a difficult question. So HoMM4 is, by and large, considered a failure.*

*Of course, the thing that truly spelled doom for it was 3DO's financial troubles. But after the success of HoMM3, HoMM4 was definitely not close to being as successful. Sounds familiar?

HoMM4 was, in some ways, a victim of HoMM3's success. Its predecessor was so iconic that the many people who loved HoMM3 expected a sequel that was could satisfy their wants in the same ways. They rejected streamlining, for example, because it reduced the variety of creatures you could recruit in one town since you had to choose between Building A and Building B. A design decision that introduced meaningful decision-making and allowed new features to shine more (fielding heroes on the battlefield) was disliked because players saw it purely as a reduction, a downgrade.

And I contend that the Civilization series is going down this route.

Civ6 is not, I'd argue, as iconic as HoMM3 was as an entry in a series. But it does have a much bigger playerbase than its predecessors. Many people love it. But, again, with success comes a price. Its many players are comfortable with what it offers, have formed ideas about what Civ games are or ought to be about based on it. Yes, there have been substantial changes introduced to the series previously. But not as much was at stake back then. Imagine the furore today if something as drastic as 1UPT was introduced in Civ7 (maybe we don't need to). Each time substantial changes are introduced, the series loses some players and has to make up for it by winning over new players. But what happens when the playerbase is huge and comprises a large proportion of the available players out there?

The immediately commercially safe solution is to make Civ6 2.0 as a new entry. Don't rock the boat, introduce minor changes and improvements, maybe in a new skin. Indeed, a majority of players would approve of that approach. But there's a problem with that. Developing a game at this scale is a multi-year project. It's waterfall as waterfall can be. You can't release minor updates that change things here and there until you get a brand new Civ7. And if you do decide early on to make Civ 6 2.0, how would you know it's future proof? What if competitors innovated successfully within the next several years and you'll be releasing a game based on a decade-old model? And you don't have the luxury of simply changing the time period the game depicts to keep it fresh, like say Call of Duty or FIFA. So there's risk in being conservative too - the risk that your product is already stale when it's taken out of the oven. So you gotta try to innovate, you have to decide to do so early in a multi-year process, and you have to take the risk that players might dislike the new things.

And then what happens? As it turns out, players do dislike them in Civ7. Of course, there are problems with the execution. But a content analysis of reviews that was done elsewhere shows that a good half of negative reviews talk about the changes, not merely execution or UI issues. Is there a possibility that better execution would have made the changes more palatable? Sure. But that question is academic now. Either players will come to accept them as time goes by and improvements are made, or they won't. And if I base my prediction on the current discourse, I find it hard to be optimistic.

If that's the case, where would it leave us? If investment is still forthcoming, the logical thing would be for Firaxis to make Civ8 a lot like Civ6. Maybe introduce a few well-liked features from Civ7. Would that be successful? Maybe. By then they'd be a new generation of players who haven't played Civ6, so it'll be fresh to them. But then would happen for Civ9? Do the same song and dance?

As I mentioned, Civ is not some special case, and products and franchises are subject to creative destruction. If a series can't innovate because of the baggage it carries, it will eventually become outdated and be replaced by competitors. Will we be lucky enough to have Civ9 before that happens?

This is what makes rooting for a series a dicey prospect. We might love it and want it to continue. But can it escape the usual traps and eventual decay? Judging by how people react to Civ7, I suspect not. And, yes, nobody can control how people feel about the game. Players will like or dislike a product as they will, but the pattern of their preferences drives that very same process of decay. And I think what we're seeing now is that process taking root.

Whether you like Civ7 or not, you should entertain possibility that we're seeing the beginning of the end.
It's good post, but I disagree on most of the points:

1. I was constantly sitting on HoMM forums during HoMM4 development and I could say it's main problem was that it was based exactly on the things players asked for. Heroes presented on the battlefield was the most requested feature, but it became one of the most hated. I can't say what happened inside the company, but I believe it's just wrong approach to game design than the amount of changes.

2. All those posts assume Civ7 is a commercial failure. We actually have zero information on it. Unlike HoMM4, which had changes for the sake of changes (or fan requests), Civ7 changes are aimed at grabbing new audience, so mixed reviews from old fans (as you correctly pointed out negative reviews talk about changes, so they are from old fans) don't speak anything about the game will be accepted by new people. And mixed reviews aren't negative, they are 50/50 and usually they don't prevent people from buying a game. We'll have much more information in about a year, after summer and autumn sales will pass and 2K will publish financial results incorporating them.

3. For the same reason, I'm not sure Civ6.5 would be a commercially safe solution. It would surely please old fans, but old fans are shrinking audience, you can't base your commercial success on them alone.

4. To give more details on point 2, it's important to not perceive players as homogenous mass. They have a lot of different segments. Old and new fans are the minimal separation, but there are much more segments than that. Fans who bought the game already but dislike it and thus don't plan to buy DLCs. Old fans who can't afford to pay full price, but will eventually buy the game on sale. Some of them will like the game enough to buy DLC as well. And so on, so forth. It's hard to estimate commercial success without analyzing those segments and we just don't have enough information. Although Firaxis marketing probably has.
 
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I think that's my takeaway too, assuming it isn't doing as well as they hoped at this point (which we don't really know, but it seems likely) it was the responsibility of the designers to find and deliver something people would love. What they chose doesn't seem to be it, unless the numbers are actually great and it's a huge success and we just can't tell because all the good numbers are in some unexpected place nobody is looking. I don't think a remastered Civ6 would have been it, but perhaps another couple expansion packs for Civ6 or even Civ5 could have gotten a lot of mileage in retrospect.

What is the thing that people would have loved that isn't the old thing warmed over? Hard to say, and that's the creative journey the team needs to go on, and sometimes it fails. To me, and this is just my point of view, it seems like they watched Humankinds journey to failure over the course of Civ7's development but thought they could do better. Some of the other ideas like commanders seem to have come from AoW4 and similar games. But whatever happened, I think it's clear they didn't deliver something that inspired and united the fans in the way other franchises have at various points - BG3, Avengers Endgame, D&D 5E. None of those were universally beloved, but the fans as a whole clearly loved them and they certainly weren't 50/50. In the end, I personally believe someone else at the helm could have been successful in delivering something that united the fans for the most part. Larian is an example of a studio that seems to know how to work with fans to build a product that they love instead of hate, maybe their approach could be learned from. Or maybe Larian should get Civ8 :)
 
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I - as a player - really like Civ7 in its core concepts. I just wish they'd taken more time and released a proper polished version around say Christmas this year. I am no expert in this, but with player numbers this low, they really need to turn the tide somehow in a radical manner. Otherwise the studio will not be able to justify pumping the necessary ressources into a game only few people play ...

They're a victim of their own success really, I was playing Civ IV(and all its mods) for so long that I missed Civ V entirely, started playing VI only a few years back, and so haven't felt the need to buy Civ VII at all.

If numbers are so low, I might buy it just as a show of support :)
 
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"The hate for Civ7 will end the series, if not soon then eventually"

Na if the game stay's "bad" , the bottom line is always the dollar. They will just bin it, sack the dev team and move on to creating a "good" game .

Maybe next time they will think out side the box create a "good" game instead of trying to con there fans for financial gain.
 
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Endless Legend 2, despite having lots of changes, also seems to be exciting rather than dividing the fans in the same way Civ7 did, even pre-launch. Maybe Amplitude is another studio to draw inspiration from, or who could take the helm from Firaxis.

I've also decided to take a break from civ7 for now, and am playing AoW4. That game really has some nice polish and care, everything seems really smooth and systems are well connected. Lots of in-game help you'd expect from a complicated 4X game.
 
2. All those posts assume Civ7 is a commercial failure. We actually have zero information on it. Unlike HoMM4, which had changes for the sake of changes (or fan requests), Civ7 changes are aimed at grabbing new audience, so mixed reviews from old fans (as you correctly pointed out negative reviews talk about changes, so they are from old fans) don't speak anything about the game will be accepted by new people. And mixed reviews aren't negative, they are 50/50 and usually they don't prevent people from buying a game. We'll have much more information in about a year, after summer and autumn sales will pass and 2K will publish financial results incorporating them.

I think any game studio (if they want) can get away with this once, cashing in all the goodwill on a beloved franchise via preorders but then releasing a game to poor reception that doesn't seem to meet expectations. But that goodwill doesn't really come back as easily, even if they can tick it up as a commercial success this time because they won't give refunds. They certainly can't keep doing it over and over. Perhaps at one point in time people would take it, but if they think that's still the case and they are betting on treating their fans that way, they will be surprised. And it won't be the fans fault, either, that's just blaming the victim.
 
There are some well considered posts here and I don't have any experience of the HoMM series so I'll keep to what I know, which is the cold financial reality of what makes products die - they stop generating acceptable returns for their owners.

I agree that targeting Civ VI 2.0 would not have been the correct way to go for the series but from a commercial perspective, it is not necessary (nor ultimately possible) to continually improve on the financial success of the previous iteration of a product. If Civ VII had iterated on VI to the same extent VI had from V, the argument seems to be that it may have been reviewed as unambitious or a reheating of an ageing formula and not reached the heady heights of Civ VI's sales. So what? As long as the Internal Rate of Return (IRR) of a product is higher than the company's cost of capital, it is an acceptable investment.

Instead, by gambling on much bigger changes to the formula that have had, let's say, a mixed reaction and lower (at this point) player engagement than previous modern titles, Firaxis has risked Civ VII generating a much lower IRR than if it had played it 'safe'. That IRR might still be higher than the cost of capital (and therefore this version of Civ VII is an acceptable investment) but if the IRR of the hypothetical 'conservative' iteration of Civ VI would have been higher, that is the one the devs should have gone with, commercially speaking.

Of course, for the conspiracy theorists out there, look to the example of New Coke which was dumped in favour of original Coke after just a few months (those trusty IRRs sorting out what products should be pursued again). After the fuore and reversal, Coke's sales actually increased compared to their baseline and the company overtook Pepsi's market share, a position it's held ever since. So maybe Civ VIII will arrive in relatively short order and be hailed as a stunning return to a beloved formula and the collective relief and overdone press coverage will see it top even Civ VI's sales 🙃
 
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