The Historical Fallacy of Lack of Perspective

Eran of Arcadia

Stormin' Mormon
Retired Moderator
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
23,090
Location
The Sunshine and Lettuce Capital of the World
It seems to me that in viewing history, many people make a mistake that can skew their impression of it. Many people think that if two given events happened long enough ago, that they happened at the same time as each other. So consciously or subconsciously, they will perceive the gap between, say, 4000 BCE and 3500 BCE as being shorter than the gap between 1950 and 2006. Or that less time passed between an event in 1800 and one in 1850 than between 1990 and today. That sort of thing.

This can lead to all sorts of errors. For example, the traditional view of "cavemen" as living during the beginning of the earth, or contemporary with the dinosaurs. In fact, our earliest hominin ancestors lived, relative to the creation of the earth or even the extinction of the dinosaurs, at practically the same time as us.

This also shows up in debates on immigration. People say that our current wave of immigrants are different from earlier groups as they are somehow not assimilating. After all, they are not speaking English or adopting our culture as earlier groups did.

But this is placing two events (the arrival of immigrants from a given country and the assimilation of that ethnic group into American culture) at the same time. This didn't happen. No one got off the boat from, say, Poland or Italy, arrived at Ellis Island, and instantly started speaking English and acting like an American. Rather, the adults still kept their old culture - there are plenty of "Little Italy" or "Little Poland" neighborhoods attesting to the fact that they grouped together and kept their customs. It was only the children who came over, and the next generation born here, who over the course of years learned English and considered themselves American.

The same thing is happening with Mexicans and other Latinos who are coming today. They are not assimilating any less, or in any different way, from earlier immigrants. We just see the process as it happens, rather than the final outcome from a distance of many years. I have seen it - the adults who come here will live in all-Latino neighborhoods and speak only Spanish. (By the way, they don't speak English not out of pride or laziness, but because they have no real way of learning it).

But the children who come here, and the ones born here, will grow up speaking English in school with their friends, and will make a conscious effort to become more like other Americans. In fact, at my job I deal with many Latinos who either immigrated or were born here. I have commented to parents, who speak no English and are unfamiliar with our customs, that their young children born here are as American as I am - and my legacy goes back centuries.

What other examples can anyone think of?
 
Not to be accused of bumping my own thread, but . . .

Certainly anyone who plays Civ gets this effect. After all, the relatively uneventful (but important) first few turns span 50 years a pop, meaning that hundreds of years will pass before anything interesting happens. Then in the end, as each turn is a year, everything is going on at once. So you will have things in the beginning that happen hundreds of years apart that seem to be closer in time than things in the end that happen two years apart.
 
I think your right in that people do not grasp the passage of time accurately, but I think your following paragraphs are full of fallacies.
 
Well, I'll agree with you Eran, but perhaps this thread belongs in history.

Many people think time is going slower now that we are living it.
 
Paradigne said:
I think your right in that people do not grasp the passage of time accurately, but I think your following paragraphs are full of fallacies.

How so? I based my comments on immigration on my knowledge of immigration during the 19th Century as well as my observation of modern immigrants. But if I did make a mistake, let me know.
 
Eran of Arcadia said:
What other examples can anyone think of?

Basically all the "good old days" myths suffer from this lack of perspective. Add the - relatively - recent distorsions by the media, and you can easily have a completely skewed view on History...

People also naturally tend to think that the era they live in is somewhat special (either because it's the best or because it's the worst) while simple common sense should tell you there should be nothing special about it.

And a third factor is that people tend to put sense in History, while it's not certain there is. However, in order for us to be able to understand what happened, it is a lot easier to use narratives that go from point A to point B with a sense of progress and causality. But of course, that can only be valid for a very specific place in a very short time. History is not always moving forward, and events are not always linked one to another in a logical chain.

It is interesting to note that in ancient Greece, Time and history were seen as cyclic. Seasons passed and go and came again, and nations were supposed to do the same. What was eternal was nature, man was ephemeral, and the only way for man to achieve immortality was through heroic acts that historians would remember. This is why for instance Greek historians are not as interested in the actual outcome of a battle as they are in the heroic acts done by both parties (Homer's depiction of the Iliad is a good example of that).
Christianity, however, completely reversed that vision: Time suddenly had a beginning (Genesis) and an end (as depicted in the Apocalypse). Because of that, History suddenly appeared to move forward. And what was immortal and eternal was no longer Nature, but Man itself!
Anyway I strongly suggest reading Hanna Arendt's Between Past and Future :)
 
its based on the human thought of it is always more important if it happens to me.
 
Eran of Arcadia said:
How so? I based my comments on immigration on my knowledge of immigration during the 19th Century as well as my observation of modern immigrants. But if I did make a mistake, let me know.

Actually the same thing is happening in France right now. Waves after waves of Italian, Portuguese and Spanish migrants came to France in the late 19th-early 20th century, and were not very well recieved: pogroms and violence took place.

Now they are fully part of society, and are criticizing the migrants coming from Africa, saying they will never fit in... :rolleyes:
 
Masquerouge said:
Christianity, however, completely reversed that vision: Time suddenly had a beginning (Genesis) and an end (as depicted in the Apocalypse). Because of that, History suddenly appeared to move forward. And what was immortal and eternal was no longer Nature, but Man itself!
The Jews introduced linear time to a world where time was thought of as cyclical. Christianity took that idea and spread it around. Nice post though.

For many young people today the 60s was a single "point" in time. for the older ones among us, it was a series of very distinct and different points.
 
Birdjaguar said:
The Jews introduced linear time to a world where time was thought of as cyclical.
I think we might once again have to credit the Persians with beating the Jews to it. We can't be sure of how linear Jewish time was in 1000 B.C., especially since the precise antiquity of Israel's Scripture remains controversial. However, the most recent common scholarship I am familiar with suggests that Job, at roughly 1000 B.C., is the oldest book of the Old Testament, and that most of the books are considerably younger, with the Torah having perhaps been set down by 500 (I'm being somewhat vague with the numbers here, because I don't know for sure).

The point is that it seems rather likely that the Zoroastrian idea, of a universal narrative to last 10 000 years and to terminate with the victory of Ahuramazda, predated and inspired the robust linear perspective in Judaism.

Not to quibble, I just think ancient Persia is pretty neat.
 
(1st generation means born from immgrants /legal or illegal)
82% to 90% of 1st generation latino/americans perfer to speak english around there latino friends.

80% of 1st generation latinos speak spanish
5% of second generation latinos speak spanish

I may speak spanish, I may fit in mexico to an extent; hell being half white makes me a friggen hit with the ladys :king:
I want my kids to learn spanish ...from me (I doubt it since I allways end up speaking english at home even with my mom) even if just from books and tapes, or the long summer vacations in manzanillo.
But I will say this I could care less about what anti migrant groups think of me , YES my mom hide in the trunk of a car to make it into this country; make no mistake about it there is no country in the world where I fit in better than America, No city Better than Las Vegas and no neighborhood Better than Northtown.

I could really care less what anyone thinks of me and my mohado family just There is no one more american than me .....not even if you were on the mayflower
 
Heck, some of my ancestors were there to greet the Mayflower (Will Rogers first said that; his Cherokee ancestry comes from the same individuals as mine) and all came over before the Revolution. But As I said, the kids whose parents walked through the desert before they were born are already as American as me.

Oh, and should I happen to marry a Latina (which strikes me as a very fine idea) I will strive to teach my kids Spanish.
 
Taliesin said:
I think we might once again have to credit the Persians with beating the Jews to it. We can't be sure of how linear Jewish time was in 1000 B.C., especially since the precise antiquity of Israel's Scripture remains controversial. However, the most recent common scholarship I am familiar with suggests that Job, at roughly 1000 B.C., is the oldest book of the Old Testament, and that most of the books are considerably younger, with the Torah having perhaps been set down by 500 (I'm being somewhat vague with the numbers here, because I don't know for sure).

The point is that it seems rather likely that the Zoroastrian idea, of a universal narrative to last 10 000 years and to terminate with the victory of Ahuramazda, predated and inspired the robust linear perspective in Judaism.

Not to quibble, I just think ancient Persia is pretty neat.
You could very well be correct. :hatsoff:

Here is wiki's asssessment of dating Zoroaster:
Spoiler :

Dating of Zoroaster

Estimates for the lifetime of Zoroaster vary widely, depending upon the sources used. 1400 BC–1000 BC is cited by Mary Boyce in her A History of Zoroastrianism (1989), representing the current scholarly consensus. "before 458 BC" is cited by H.S. Nyberg in Die Religionen des Alten Iran (1938). The Bundahišn or Creation, an important text within the religion, cites the time of Zoroaster as 258 years before Alexander's conquest of Persia, i.e., 588 BC. This "Traditional Date of Zoroaster" was accepted by many 19th century scholars, among them Taghizadeh and W. B. Henning.

Other scholars have been arguing even later dates, now widely-rejected, Darmesteter reporting 100 BC. Persian mythological dates are very early indeed, reaching into what is today known as the Neolithic.
[edit]

Linguistic

From an early time, scholars such as Bartholomea and Christensen noticed the problems with the "Traditional Date", namely the linguistic difficulties that it presents. As we know, Zoroaster himself composed the eighteen poems that make up the oldest parts of the Avesta, the Gathas. The language of the Gathas and of the text known as Yasna Haptanghaiti (the "Seven Chapter Sermon"), is called Old Avestan, and is significantly more archaic than the language of the later parts of the Avesta, Young Avestan. Gathic Avestan is still rather close to the Vedic Sanskrit of the Rigveda (sound changes separating the two branches, both descending independently from Proto-Indo-Iranian, include loss of z in and development of a retroflex series in Indo-Aryan and loss of aspiration and prevocalic s in Iranian).

Since Rigvedic Sanskrit is slighly more conservative than Gathic Avestan, the Avesta is usually dated to a few centuries after the Rigveda. Based on the date of the composition of the Rigveda, commonly put to between the 15th to the 12th centuries BC, and a date of Proto-Indo-Iranian of roughly 2000 BC, the Gāthās are dated to around 1000 BC (with 1200 BC as likely as 800 BC, compare glottochronology for the inaccuracy of such estimates).
[edit]

Historical

The historical approach compares social customs described in the Gāthās to what is known of the time and region through other historical studies. Since the Gathas are very cryptic, and open to much interpretation, such a method can also only yield very rough estimates. The Gathas point to a society of nomadic pastoralists[citation needed], contrasting sharply with a view of a Zoroaster living in the court of an Achaemenid satrap such as Vištaspa. Also, the absence of any mention of Achaemenids or even any West Iranian tribes such as Medes and Persians, or even Parthians, in the Gathas makes it unlikely that historical Zoroaster ever lived in the court of a 6th century satrap. It is possible that Zoroaster lived sometime between the 13th to the 11th centuries BC, prior to the settlement of Iranian tribes in the central and west of the Iranian Plateau, but it is just as likely for him to have lived in a rural society during the centuries immediately following the Iranian migration. The historical estimate is thus consistent with, but just as vague as, the linguistic one. Gherardo Gnoli gives a date near ca. 1000 BC.
[edit]

Archaeological

Archaeological evidence is usually inconclusive for questions of religion. However, a Russian archaeologist, Victor Sarianidi, links Zoroaster to ca. 2000 BC based upon excavations of the BMAC (Asgarov, 1984). Indo-Iranian religion is generally accepted to have had its roots in the late 3rd millennium BC (e.g. the Soma cult); but Zoroaster himself did already look back on a long religious tradition. The Yaz culture (ca. 1500-1100 BC) in the Turkmen-Iranian border area is considered a likely staging ground for the development of East Iranian and early Zoroastrian practices.
[edit]

Mythological

Zoroaster was famous in classical antiquity as the founder of the religion of the Magi. His name is cited by Xanthus, and in the Alcibiades of Plato as well as by Plutarch, Pliny the Elder and Diogenes Laertius. Ancient Greek estimates are dependent upon Persian mythology, and give dates as early as the 7th millennium BC. These are the dates to which Parsis subscribe.[2], [3]

Persian mythology, mainly the Shahnama of Ferdowsi, and oral tradition place Zoroaster quite early. Manly Palmer Hall in his book, Twelve World Teachers, arrives at a rough estimate ranging from 10000 BCE to 1000 BCE.
 
Eran of Arcadia said:
The same thing is happening with Mexicans and other Latinos who are coming today. They are not assimilating any less, or in any different way, from earlier immigrants. We just see the process as it happens, rather than the final outcome from a distance of many years.
Right, but it's the illegal immigrants that people are concerned with these days; legal immigrants, or people who follow the law to get into this country, are by all means welcome, a long as they don't wear pants with a TNT lining.
 
Cheezy the Wiz said:
Right, but it's the illegal immigrants that people are concerned with these days; legal immigrants, or people who follow the law to get into this country, are by all means welcome, a long as they don't wear pants with a TNT lining.

In other words, Elta, git your illegal ass out of here. Your mom is a criminal.

:rolleyes:

And I know you are quite the conservative... too bad your allies in politics would rather you were gone.

(in case you missed the saracasm, I say, "Welcome to America, work hard, achieve the American dream... :) )
 
Neomega said:
In other words, Elta, git your illegal ass out of here. Your mom is a criminal.

:rolleyes:

And I know you are quite the conservative... too bad your allies in politics would rather you were gone.

(in case you missed the saracasm, I say, "Welcome to America, work hard, achieve the American dream... :) )
( i recognize this was sarcasm)
Elta wouldnt be an illegal, even if her mom was an illegal. If she was born in the US ( were you born in the US?) then she is a naturalized citzen, by birthright an American. She can run for President, if she was so compelled.

I once again state my support for legal imigration: we are a nation built on immigrants, God know's I'm decended from them, so like Neo said, come one come all, to the land of opportunity, and live the American dream!
 
Neomega said:
In other words, Elta, git your illegal ass out of here. Your mom is a criminal.

:rolleyes:

And I know you are quite the conservative... too bad your allies in politics would rather you were gone.

(in case you missed the saracasm, I say, "Welcome to America, work hard, achieve the American dream... :) )
Me conservative?
I consider myself a sort of moderate democrat

Belive me no one dislikes illegal immgrants more than my dad ... no one
but if that guy married my mom trust me we can all get along

...hmmm what makes you think I am a conservitive?
 
Really, the only difference between illegals and legal immigrants is that the legals were lucky enough to sucessfully complete the massive amounts of paperwork that are necessary to come here legally. And I see no good reason to make the process so hard, as it doesn't stop people anyways. Other than immigration laws, illegals are on average just as law-abiding as anyone.
 
Birdjaguar said:
The Jews introduced linear time to a world where time was thought of as cyclical. Christianity took that idea and spread it around. Nice post though.

For many young people today the 60s was a single "point" in time. for the older ones among us, it was a series of very distinct and different points.

Do the Jews have an eschatology? Because I thought one of the main difference between Judaism and Christianism was that whole end-of-the-world thing...
 
Back
Top Bottom