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[aelf]

And now I'm asking you: is there any way for you, or anyone else, to justify or excuse the barbaric behavior of the Red Army with regard to civilians in areas they overran besides to say "Well, teh Germans started it!"? I'm also curious how you would try to justify the continued mistreatment of German civilians for years after the war was over.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood something. I thought I was clear enough, but apparently not. Let me repeat: That wasn't an excuse or a justification. That was an answer to the question of why American soldiers managed to commit less atrocities despite the fact that the propaganda they were exposed to was not substantially different.

 

[Patroklos]

I would like to point out that the Red Army's orgy of rape did not continue for years after the war. That was just garden variety subjugation followed by vassalization (the real kind).

 

[King Kalmah]

I would like to point out that the Red Army's orgy of are did not continue for years after the war. That was just garden variety subjugation followed by vassalization (the real kind).

Still resulted in largest mass suicide ever.May 1st,1945....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_suicide_in_Demmin

I also recall reading that a similar thing happened in and around Berlin...

Those Soviets were not saints...Patton witnessed them tying German troops to horse and running them in two different directions until the still alive POW was ripped apart...

Yeah Keep your enemies close,but why have them as allies?

 

[Formaldehyde]

The bombing of legitimate targets during the war cannot in any way be equated or compared to the continued rape of civilian women after the war was over for years. Try again.

I wasn't comparing them. Now was I?

And civlians are not "legitimate targets" anymore, not that they ever really were. Again, see the Geneva Conventions for further details. Those particular atrocities are now illegal no matter what the other side does.

 

[red_elk]

Thank you for proving my point about apologism and denial. The facts of the Russian rape across eastern Europe are not in question. Even in Russia where it is recorded in detail in state archives ( Beevor's source), it's just denied.

I asked you to provide sources
1. Of "much more horrendous" Soviet propaganda
2. That the number of victims is counted in millions.
3. That the crimes were approved by the chain of command.

Can you do it or not?
Looks like you didn't even read Beevor, because he doesn't confirm any of these statements.

 

[King Kalmah]

2. That the number of victims is counted in millions.
3. That the crimes were approved by the chain of command.

Can you do it or not?

You do it for us.Of course Stalin didn't encourage the brutal crimes,but he said to destroy the enemy...thats open for interpretation...

So of course things might happen that aren't Stalin's fault.Vice Versa for other leaders.Some people(Soldiers) go crazy in times of war.

 

[red_elk]

You do it for us.Of course Stalin didn't encourage the brutal crimes,but he said to destroy the enemy...thats open for interpretation...

So of course things might happen that aren't Stalin's fault.Vice Versa for other leaders.Some people(Soldiers) go crazy in times of war.

Such crimes are inevitable in any war, especially total war. The scale of them also expected to be pretty big, given the size of front and what those soldiers saw in their homeland, after retreating Nazis. But nowhere near millions. And nobody can provide example of propaganda encouraging crimes or command chain approving it.

And yes, I agree that it was probably Stalin's fault that he ordered to destroy enemies, not to hug them.

 

[Patroklos]

I asked you to provide sources
1. Of "much more horrendous" Soviet propaganda
2. That the number of victims is counted in millions.
3. That the crimes were approved by the chain of command.

The same source that's been beating you around the head this entire thread, Beevor's "Berlin - Downfall 1945". There is no serious academic dispute of his work or of the reality of the events described more generally. You need to accept this"

Can you do it or not?
Looks like you didn't even read Beevor, because he doesn't confirm any of these statements.

ORLY?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany#section_1

that's Beevor sources as saying at least 1.4 million women were w
raped in Pommerania, Silesia, and East Prussia alone.

And I must correct myself, the above link also sources that mass rapes on a large scale continued into 1947. It was so bad still that the Soviets could not effectively setup/manage their vassal state so they had to confine the whole red army into closed guarded camps and restrict them entirely from civilian areas.

I want to test your level Of denial on this. Do you recognize that in this orgy of rape by Soviet soldiers tens of thousands of Russian female auxiliaries were also rapEd? Some sources have it well over 100k.

 

[Patroklos]

Are you denying the Russian rape frenzy? Or that it happened after the war had ended for years? If its the latter, I think the Soviet officials literally quarantining their entire occupation army to prevent that very thing is hard to argue against. If its the former, well, there is no helping you.

 

[red_elk]

The same source that's been beating you around the head this entire thread, Beevor's "Berlin - Downfall 1945". There is no serious academic dispute of his work or of the reality of the events described more generally. You need to accept this"

ORLY?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany#section_1

This is some strange wiki article with reference to Sydney Morning Herald newspaper.
Looks like you had hard time trying to google scientific article which proves your point

As I already said, Beevor's only source where he took such numbers from is the work of Sander and Johr, who extrapolated numbers of "excessive births" from two Berlin hospitals. And as I said, the same method, applied to Western occupation zone will also give millions of raped women - which is nonsense.

You still didn't give examples of "horrendous" Soviet propaganda, and evidences that the crimes were approved by the chain of command. What's wrong - may be you lied?

There is no serious academic dispute of his work

Here we go:
O.A. Rzheshevsky, a professor and the president of the Russian Association of World War II Historians, has charged that Beevor is merely resurrecting the discredited and racist views of Neo-Nazi historians, who depicted Soviet troops as subhuman "Asiatic hordes".[11] He claimed that Beevor's use of phrases such as "Berliners remember" and "the experiences of the raped German women" were better suited "for pulp fiction, than scientific research".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor#Criticism

Just one example.

I want to test your level Of denial on this.

It's you who denies crimes of American mass-murderers here. I don't deny crimes which really happened.

 

[Old Hippy]

this thread seems to have become an argument of the US did less war crimes than the russians if one looks at the history...

Spoiler :

Concentration camps

Filipino villagers were forced into concentration camps called reconcentrados which were surrounded by free-fire zones, or in other words “dead zones.” Furthermore, these camps were overcrowded and filled with disease, causing the death rate to be extremely high. Conditions in these “reconcentrados” are generally acknowledged to have been inhumane. Between January and April 1902, 8,350 prisoners of approximately 298,000 died. Some camps incurred death rates as high as 20 percent. "One camp was two miles by one mile (3.2 by 1.6 km) in area and 'home' to some 8,000 Filipinos. Men were rounded up for questioning, tortured, and summarily executed."[92]

In Batangas Province, where General Franklin Bell was responsible for setting up a concentration camp, a correspondent described the operation as “relentless.” General Bell ordered that by December 25, 1901, the entire population of both Batangas Province and Laguna Province had to gather into small areas within the “poblacion” of their respective towns. Barrio families had to bring everything they could carry because anything left behind—including houses, gardens, carts, poultry and animals—was to be burned by the U.S. Army. Anyone found outside the concentration camps was shot. General Bell insisted that he had built these camps to "protect friendly natives from the insurgents, assure them an adequate food supply" while teaching them "proper sanitary standards." The commandant of one of the camps referred to them as the "suburbs of Hell."[92]

On September 8, 2000, the head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) formally apologized for the agency's participation in the "ethnic cleansing" of Western tribes. From the forced relocation and assimilation of the "sauvage" to the white man's way of life to the forced sterilization of Native Americans, the BIA set out to "destroy all things Indian." Through the exploration of the United States' Federal Indian policy, it is evident that this policy intended to "destroy, in whole or in part," the Native American population. The extreme disparity in the number of Native American people living within the United States' borders at the time Columbus arrived, approximately ten million compared to the approximate 2.4 million Indians and Eskimos alive in the United States today, is but one factor that illustrates the success of the government's plan of "Manifest Destiny."

Spoiler :

Summary of substantiated cases
Seven previously unacknowledged massacres from 1967 through 1971 in which at least 137 civilians died.
Seventy-eight other attacks on noncombatants in which at least 57 were killed, 56 wounded and 15 sexually assaulted.
One hundred forty-one instances in which U.S. soldiers tortured civilian detainees or prisoners of war with fists, sticks, bats, water or electric shock (sometimes using Field telephones).

Two hundred and three soldiers accused of harming Vietnamese civilians or prisoners were found to warrant formal charges after investigation, and were subsequently referred to the soldiers' superiors for official action. Of the 203 cases, 57 of them stood a court martial. Only 23 were convicted, of whom 14 received prison sentences ranging from six months to 20 years; most received significant reductions on appeal. Many substantiated cases were closed with a letter of reprimand, a fine or, in more than half the cases, no action at all.

The stiffest sentence went to a military intelligence interrogator convicted of committing indecent acts on a 13-year-old girl in an interrogation hut in 1967. The records show that he served seven months of a 20-year term.

Links

Spoiler :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War#Concentration_camps

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/georegions/northamerica/UnitedStates02.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_Crimes_Working_Group

saying your atrocity was bigger than ours really misses the point... if we are comparing size ...well its what you do with it that counts...