The Huns for BtS

[AbsintheRed]

I really like the city list you came up with, Cool!
Hope I could gave you a little help with some of my suggestions...

EDIT: Maybe I would change Bastetiji and Khalatiji to Bastetir and Khalatir. Similar you did with the iai ending cities.
Somehow it sounds a little more hunnic or at least closer to the other city names that way

 

[cool3a2]

Sure, you were pretty much of help! Thaks! Maybe I'll do what you suggested. At the moment there is no other stuff that could be added to the mod, so no need to update the mod. Maybe I'll switch to WoC modding style. If I do, I might take your suggestions about the citylist in consideration

 

[The SciWalker]

Actually Huns is the nomadic tribe which migrated from Mongolia to Europe around 1800 years ago due to their ancestors' defeat by Han empire. The word "Huns" is originated from Mongolian, which means people.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yeah. And this means the city list is good or bad on your opinion?

 

[Manifold]

Looks like a very successful work,

i am just wondering about the citynames. as i know the only termed citys ruled by Attila were: Esztergom (? as Attilas castle), Gran, Susa, Bechelaren.

Where is your citylist from?

 

[AbsintheRed]

We chose those from various sources with cool3a2. Read our conversation 2-3 pages before

 

[cool3a2]

Actually Huns is the nomadic tribe which migrated from Mongolia to Europe around 1800 years ago due to their ancestors' defeat by Han empire. The word "Huns" is originated from Mongolian, which means people.

Yeah, I can't see what's your point here either... Also, what you said is a theory. Nothing more and nothing less. There is a chance that Xiongnu and european Huns are related, but there is no proof. Well, that's not a problem actually. You are free to believe whatever you want. AFAIK the name of the UB I used comes from the Xiongnu for example. But at least, you shouldn't claim that what you said is the absolute truth.

i am just wondering about the citynames. as i know the only termed citys ruled by Attila were: Esztergom (? as Attilas castle), Gran, Susa, Bechelaren.

Well, they are not from one source alone. In Tápiószentmárton (which has been shortened and changed in spelling to Tapiomarton to cover the hungarian origin of the word) is a village in Hungary I have been to and where there are ruins of something that is believed to be a hunnic palace. I have been to this place and I used a picture of a reconstruction of that palace as Attilas background. As I found a palace is not an everyday building, I decided to use this city as capital. Then, there is Szeged and Zalaegerszeg (changed to Segedin and Egerseg for same reasons as the change of Tápiószentmárton). Szeged is oftenly mentioned when it's about Huns. It's thought to be the place where Attilas capital was, but to my knowledge there is no proof for that either. Zalaegerszeg has been suggested from Absinthe I think. I don't know where there is the relation to the Huns but I could imagine that it is similar as with Szeged. I decided to trust Absinthe in that point, that's why it's there.
Then, there are a couple of tribe names. Hunuk was also suggested by Absinthe, I think. Turuk is said to be the Huns own word for them selves, but I'm pretty sure that there is either no proof for that or that it is a word from the Xiongnu. The other tribes have been said to have been part of the hunnic confederation. If there was a core-tribe - the true Huns if you want (you might say Attilas clan) - then these tribes aren't that core-tribe and therefor they are no ethnic Huns actually. Still, I found these names more acurate then using names from many different languages and even language families. Not to mention that the cities I used before, were all conquered. So historically those cities had nothing to do with the Huns. The names of the tribes however, have been put together from different sources. I have listened them all some pages before. Feel free to take a look. Of course, there can't be an absolute proof that those tribes have really been part of the hunnic confederation. But well, without any liberty, we wouldn't go anywhere with this mod. And as I said I have no problems with theories as long as they are treatened as such. There is one tribe whichs relation with the Huns seems to be pretty sure as it is reported by Priskus.
Finally, there is another group of citynames that are said to be hunnic place names. From what I remember, they are from an iranian library or monastery. I suppose they are from the same source as the codex of Isfahan. Sure, that's again not proofen. I suppose that these words and the mentioned codex are in-deed from a people that has been called Huns, but it could be that the two Huns are not the same. Well, the opposit could also be true. The source of these names is also linked some pages earlier, but it is in Hungarian only. That's why I changed spelling here and there to have them in english writing while keeping the pronounciation.
All in all, the list could be inaccurate, we can't know. But this ways it still feels much more natural t me as a composition of cities from 4 or more languages (even language families).

 

[Manifold]

ok, i understand, it is your personal choice and you also take some tribes and terms of the "white huns", thats fine.

So please take the following just as inspiration: Gudruns voyage from the Rhine to Attila (translation from the Old Norse by Therese Dahn): Bechelaren (Pöchlarn), Tuln (Tulln), Zeißenmauer (?), Wiene (Vienna), Attilas wooden palace at the Tisza (sometimes called Susa).

 

[cool3a2]

Well, Tisza is a river called Theiß in german. Not an option as city for me. Not to mention that "at the Tisza" is quite unspecific as the Tisza is long. Vienna is not an option as it is the austrian capital. I've taken hungarian cities, that's true. But I at least changed their spelling and those cities are by far less famous then Vienna. It could have been an option as long as I used the old list, but I suppose that Vienna didn't existed in the time of the Huns. This is the first time I heard about Vienna in relation with the Huns. Finally, we would return to the initial problem: an inharmonic list with from the Huns point of view foreign names. Zeißenmauer is not famous, but sounds too german. Bechelaren and Tuln could be taken. I'll take them in consideration.

 

[Manifold]

traditional Attilas wooden castle is located in the northern part of the tisza river. The place of Tápiószentmárton could fit, but the name...in german Attilas HQ is Etzelsburg. Maybe you could just take Attilas Castle or Wooden Palace or Susa???

roman Vindobona=Vienna (the change of name must take place in the Migration period).

about the foreign citynames, i am convinced, the huns did not found citys by themself, they just conquered, i mean, raze them. foreign citynames should not be problem, the huns have a lot of slave tribes with them.

Why i suggest the citys of the Gudrun tale is, if i think of Attila, i think about this tale.

 

[cool3a2]

Attilas castle and Wooden palace don't sound well to me. I'll check for Susa.

about the foreign citynames, i am convinced, the huns did not found citys by themself, they just conquered, i mean, raze them. foreign citynames should not be problem, the huns have a lot of slave tribes with them.

I had a source by hand that mentions that Huns had permanent settlements. The word 'city' might be over the top here, but maybe villages or trading outposts. Unfortunately the source didn't mention names. I suppose they are unknown as they are probably all abandoned. Anyways, using these citynames didn't feel right to me. That's why I liked the idea of tribe names that was suggested by someone else (Yeekim from the history section of civfanatics, I believe). Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find that much of tribal names connected with the Huns. And even from these few, a lot were to famous, so using them for a hunnic citylist would have been just strange. That's how the current citylist has been created. I have no problem with extending it and I'll check 3 of your suggestions before I throw out another update, but I certainly don't want to return to the former citylist style that used those foreign citynames.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Susa would be -very- bad. Personally I don't think the huns had any serious connection to a city named Susa, if they had at all...
And even if there was something, it would be a very poor choice of name. If anyone says Susa, he thinks of the Persian city in the first place

Also, I don't think something like Gudrun's tale is the best source. Of course our other sources with cool are not perfect either, and some of them are partly fictional. But still, picking city names from only a tale is not my kind of choice...

Having said that, if you really think it's appropriate, maybe we can add Bechelaren and Tuln with a little name change (like in some of the other cases). I'm completely against adding the other ones.
So, Bechelaren could be simply Bechelar, or Bechelur/Bechelir, Tuln could be Tulun, Tulnuk or Tulnur/Tulnir


EDIT: So my city list would be something like this:
Note, that I put back Szeged to the first place. I don't want to persuade you that this is better, use Tapiomart as capital if you want to, but I will definitely use this way.
In most sources I read Szeged was the closest thing to a capital for the huns (at least for Attila). I always think of Tapioszentmarton as a place for Winter Palace in civ-playing...

Segedin - maybe Segedi to be more similar to other names
Tapiomarton
Turuk
Hunuk
Akatziroi - Akatziruk
Kutrigur
Sabir
Utigur
Suvar
Kevi
Bechelaren - Bechelar/Bechelur
Tuln - Tulnuk
Egerseg
Sklaveniai - Sklavenir
Bastarnai - Bastarnuk
Suebi
Antes - I would drop or change this too, doesn't fit this way
Aduni
Jegi
Telikhi
Laiduni
Bastetiji - Bastetir
Khalatiji - Khalatur/Khalatir
Tesongadi
Dorgathegi
Suchongadi
Livi

 

[Manifold]

Segedin as HQ could fit regional too, of course. But isn´t it a Hungarian name? I think, the huns did dont speak a Finno-Ugric language like Hungarian more a Tatar non European language, or?

Maybe a person with such a first language could be ask for just a word in his language for HQ, capital, royal residence....?

if the citylist is not finished, i beg to suggest the Co-belligerent (slaves) from the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains as tribes:
...
Greuthungi
Gepids

 

[AbsintheRed]

Loool, both cool and myself are hungarians
cool3a2 is partially, he lives in Germany, but he is at least half hungarian AFAIK, furthermore I was born and raised here in Szeged, and living here ever since
It's right under my nickname and avatar, I can't beleive you didn't notice that

Also, why would you suggest slaves?? I really don't get you
I wasn't even sure of Bechelaren and Tuln, but they may be fine. This is something I'm also against I'm afraid, at least you gives us some better reasons.
Btw, Gepids are way a too well-known tribe, we dropped many before for the same reasons...

 

[cool3a2]

cool3a2 is partially, he lives in Germany, but he is at least half hungarian AFAIK

Correct. My father is Hungarian, my mother is german (and her name is accidently Gudrun ). I have both citizenships which makes me as Hungarian as Absinthe and as German as Manifold.
Anyways, I think what Manifold was thinking of, was the meaning of the word in a language related to Hunnic (or is Hunnish in this case appropriate? I think so...). Well, Hunnish is mostly assumed to be a turkic language, although that's based on names mostly. Segedin is the turkish form of Szeged. So we took in consideration that this is about Huns, not Hungarians. Still, Szeged was probably a place with importance for the Huns (and not of one of their compagnons), so we took it. To make a difference between Huns and Hungarians, we chose the turkish from of Szeged. Still, as Szeged is somewhat well-known (and Manifold still recognized Szeged as such) I think it is inappropriate as a capital. That's why I stick to Tápiószentmárton.
Hungarian is said to be finn-ugric and there is certainly a relation. Still, finn-ugric languages are actually not european. Sure, you could argument that indoeuropean languages aren't either actually, but I hope you still see the point. Anyways, Hungarian is off inside the finn-ugric language family and it has a lot of turkic words in its vocabulary. I could continue this by saying that scientists weren't able to find a significant genetic relation between Hungarians and Finns (although they were able to find traces of Iranian genes in Transylvanian Hungarians) and that from a cultural point of view Hungarians show similarities to turkic people (like music for example), but this would be kinda offtopic. To keep it short: Hungarian isn't that far away from turkic either. Not to mention that it could be that Huns were Finn-ugric people originally. We don't know where the Huns came from exactly. The Xiongnu theory is, well, just a theory. And the hunnic names we know don't sound strange for Hungarians, I'd say. I'm not argumenting that Attila is a common name in Hungary - that's not an argument. The german Wikipedia arguments that Attila is gothic name, because there was a similar gothic word meaning father. Hungarians also have such a word: 'atya' which means the same. And of course, there are similar words like that in a lot of other languages, too. But even the ending doesn't feels foreign: -la. There are endings like -ka in Hungarian meaning something like small or little (in German like -lein or -chen) and they are used the same way as -la. But even if Hunnish was a turkic language and Hungarian is finn-ugric, both types are aglutinating. That's a significant property of a language which puts both language families somewhat close to each other. Well if you are nterested in this topic, search for the codex of isfahan.
I took a first look at your suggestions, but it seems that these places were cities of vassals of the Huns without having a special relation to the Huns themselves. And as I said before, I don't want to return to a citylist with foreign cities. Well, I'll check this one more time next weekend. At the moment, I am undecided. But I agree with Absinthe that Gepids are too well known.

 

[Manifold]

Loool, both cool and myself are hungarians
cool3a2 is partially, he lives in Germany, but he is at least half hungarian AFAIK, furthermore I was born and raised here in Szeged, and living here ever since
It's right under my nickname and avatar, I can't beleive you didn't notice that

Also, why would you suggest slaves?? I really don't get you
I wasn't even sure of Bechelaren and Tuln, but they may be fine. This is something I'm also against I'm afraid, at least you gives us some better reasons.
Btw, Gepids are way a too well-known tribe, we dropped many before for the same reasons...

so what is the translation of HQ, capital, royal residence... in a Tatar language?

 

[cool3a2]

I don't know what it means in tatar, but in turkish:
capital - başkent, başşehir
headquarter - genel karargah
palace - saray
But these translations are from an online dictionary - I don't speak a single word turkish myself - so I don't know how accurate these words are.

 

[Manifold]

I don't know what it means in tatar, but in turkish:
capital - başkent, başşehir
headquarter - genel karargah
palace - saray
But these translations are from an online dictionary - I don't speak a single word turkish myself - so I don't know how accurate these words are.

this seams modern turkish, i mean some more ancient and scythic (as cultural genus of the steppe) with Mongolian influences, like The SciWalker wrote.

 

[cool3a2]

Well, I suppose it will be hard for us to find someone who is able to translate these words into one of those languages you mentioned...

 

[Manifold]

there are some language minorities in Russia and the Caucasus Mountains, their words for HQ, capital, royal residence could be intresting. sadly i dont know such a person

otherwise the solution is quite simple

<TEXT>
		<Tag>TXT_KEY_HUN1</Tag>
		<English>Tápiószentmárton</English>
		<French>[B]wanted word[/B]</French>
		<German>Etzelsburg</German>
		<Italian>Susa</Italian>
		<AbsintheRed>Segedin</AbsintheRed>
</TEXT>