The Huns for BtS

[cool3a2]

Well, that would be a solution, but a very confusing one... But there is no reason why you couldn't edit the citylist for your own purposes and to your own preferences.

 

[Manifold]

oh, i thought you make the modul - also i can just guarantee for the german TEXT. i mean Etzelsburg is the neat name of the capital in this language.

 

[cool3a2]

No, I meant that I finish the module as I like it and after you loaded it, you can alter the citylist as you wish for yourself. That doesn't mean that I'm not open to your suggestions though. It's just that I don't think it is a good idea to give the capital different names in any different language. Better said, making the capital a different for each language.

 

[Manifold]

No, I meant that I finish the module as I like it and after you loaded it, you can alter the citylist as you wish for yourself. That doesn't mean that I'm not open to your suggestions though. It's just that I don't think it is a good idea to give the capital different names in any different language.

Why don´t have different names in different languages? Civ4 is full of this option.

Better said, making the capital a different for each language.

alsoyou suppose Attilas wooden castle at Tápiószentmárton place. Nobody knows how Attila himself called his palace. but we know how it is called in german, whatever the place was.

 

[cool3a2]

Why don´t have different names in different languages? Civ4 is full of this option.

I'm not aware of this and I can't imagine that actually. I mean, they may use different versions of the same name for different languages, like I did in my Saxony mod:
- german: Dresden
- hungarian: Drezda
But what you suggest, is using totally different places for the same entry...

alsoyou suppose Attilas wooden castle at Tápiószentmárton place. Nobody knows how Attila himself called his palace. but we know how it is called in german, whatever the place was.

Of course, Tápiószentmárton is not the word the Huns used. But Etzelsburg might be completely invented. AFAIK it's from the Nibelungenlied which is no historic source actually.

 

[Manifold]

No, i guess, we talk at cross purposes.
I dont suggest a different place, i suggest a capitalname in one language.

Etzelsburg or Etzels Burg is the name of the capital of the Huns under Etzel in the german language (german=Attila (Look at Brockhaus)). A Tale could be e better source than no source,

besides it sounds cool in the german language. Every german will know what is meant. Nobody heard bevor from Tápiószentmárton - sorry. The term "Etzelsburg" is not defined for one specific place.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Sorry Manifold, I still don't think a source form a tale is a approptiate enough.
Segedi/Segedin and Tapiomart does to job of the top two cities very well

 

[mamba]

Of course, Tápiószentmárton is not the word the Huns used. But Etzelsburg might be completely invented. AFAIK it's from the Nibelungenlied which is no historic source actually.

I am not saying use Etzelsburg, but Etzel is the name given to Attila in the Nibelungen. So Etzelsburg literally translates to Attila's castle.

I still would stick with using one town / location for all languages.

 

[cool3a2]

No, i guess, we talk at cross purposes.
I dont suggest a different place, i suggest a capitalname in one language.

Etzelsburg or Etzels Burg is the name of the capital of the Huns under Etzel in the german language (german=Attila (Look at Brockhaus)). A Tale could be e better source than no source,

besides it sounds cool in the german language. Every german will know what is meant. Nobody heard bevor from Tápiószentmárton - sorry. The term "Etzelsburg" is not defined for one specific place.

Looks like you didn't get me, at least not my main problem. You suggested to give the same city different names in different languages, see your own post. You didn't translate Etzelsburg to other languages, but actually used completely different cities for the capital. I mean, it could be that Etzelsburg and Tápiószentmárton are in-deed different names for the same place, but Szeged, Tápiószentmárton and Susa are different cities, not just different versions of a city's name.
Also, who says that there is no source for Tápiószentmárton? There have been found remains of a wooden palace. Sure, there is no direct proof for the hunnic origin, but it's by far the most plausible solution.
Finally, you don't need to explain me the word Etzel. I thought I made clear that I am as German as you (I was born in Dresden). I know about the form Etzel and I heard 'Etzelsburg' before. The point is, that Etzelsburg sounds invented. It seems to be a generic name someone invented because he didn't know the real name. I mean, the place itself that is mentioned in the legend, may be invented. It's clear that Attila had a headquarter somewhere. It's just likely someone invented a place where it could have been and a name for it. Or at least base all these things on nothing but a guess. So this ways, the historic accuracy of Etzelsburg is questinable in my eyes. You could argument similarly about Szeged, I suppose - another point why not taking it as capital either. That you never heard about Tápiószentmárton before, is actually more an argument for it then against it: it would be strange to have a well known city declarated as hunnic capital and this ways it's more foreign then using a name coming from a well known language. Not to mention, that Etzelsburg doesn't fit to the other names we have.
But again: if you want you can alter the capitals name to Etzelsburg for your own purposes. But having it in the 'official citylist' doesn't feel right to me.

 

[The Capo]

Well, this conversation sounds pretty pointless. I think cool's point is that the city, Etzelburg, isn't real. And because of that he dosen't want to include it. So I guess what he is saying is that he'll take real over "well-known" (although I'm not sure how well known etzelburg would be).

 

[cool3a2]

You summarized it up well. Besides of what you said, the other problem is that it would stick out too much beyond all the other cities of the list. I think that the list as a whole would then fell less natural.

 

[Manifold]

Looks like you didn't get me, at least not my main problem. You suggested to give the same city different names in different languages, see your own post. You didn't translate Etzelsburg to other languages, but actually used completely different cities for the capital. I mean, it could be that Etzelsburg and Tápiószentmárton are in-deed different names for the same place, but Szeged, Tápiószentmárton and Susa are different cities, not just different versions of a city's name.

my list was just an example, i mean <AbsintheRed> is not a language, or? so i admit, i expresse ambiguous. i just want to point on the possibility to use different citynames -> the on line i can guarantee is <German>Etzels Burg</German>

Also, who says that there is no source for Tápiószentmárton? There have been found remains of a wooden palace. Sure, there is no direct proof for the hunnic origin, but it's by far the most plausible solution.

you might have some good evidences for the location (also AbsintheRed), not for the name

I know about the form Etzel and I heard 'Etzelsburg' before. The point is, that Etzelsburg sounds invented. It seems to be a generic name someone invented because he didn't know the real name.

why invented? the tale is very very old and dont use invented cityname. i already wrote you a list of realy existing citynames on gudruns journey from the rhine to Etzels Burg. they are all not-invented.

also, why could Attila not name his palace after himself? he seams to be a egomaniac (killed his brother...). but i guess, he self called it just royal residence or so, thats why i already suggest to take a word from a tatar language (maybe the translation for royal residence. sadly whe dont know the someone, who could help.) but this was another suggestion, temporary one of the lines in the hun_city_text.xml shall be <German>Etzels Burg</German>

 

[cool3a2]

Well, Tápiószentmárton is certainly not the name the Huns used. That's pretty sure. But it's the only name we know for that place. At least, the place itself can be taken as probably histircally acurate. Finally, altering the spelling made the name stick out less. I'd say that's all we can do and considering the context, it's also enough to take it into the citylist.

I did not say that the whole legend is invented nor did I say anything about the other cities you mentioned in this context. There were two that seemed to be cities of vassals of the Huns, not cities of the Huns themselves. Although I did not have time for a second check. They aren't even of one of the tribes of the hunnic confederation. As you might say, they were cities of the Huns slaves. That's why I don't want to take them. As I said earlier, this would be a step towards the former citylist. In other words a step backwards.
And about Susa: I don't even got which Susa is meant...
To come back to the legend: well, it's a legend. That means it has true parts, but they are hard to distinguish from the invented parts. A legend is not history. A while back, I read that the Etzel from the Nibelungenlied is not even Attila, but a leader that lived roughly a hundred years later. Can't say whether this is true or not. BTW: that Attila killed his brother is also a legend. There is no proof for that.
So all in all, my doubts regarding the historic acuracy were about Etzelsburg alone. I don't know about a second source that would backup the german legends regarding this name. Romans might have reported the name if it would have been that simple.

 

[Manifold]

please check the Brockhaus again. this is the prevailing opinion.
also i dont get the point with invented citynames. did we talk about Tapiomarton? Etzels Burg is the german word for this object.

Facts: the marriage with a german girl and the killing of his brother are two of four facts we just have about Attila. if you doubt that you doubt him.
please send me your e-mail-adress per pm, so i could send you some scanns from my history books!

 

[AbsintheRed]

Very few things are sure about Attila
I wouldn't dare to stay so confidently those things you wrote...
Of course it's possible that they were true, but I read many other opinions about those in other sources.
Your history book also can't give us the exact facts, it's just one possibility from only one source after all

Also, Etzels Burg is a clearly fictional name, Tapiomart is not. And it's clearly of german origin, while what we modified form Tápiószentmárton fits in the other hunnic cities very well

 

[Manifold]

Your history book also can't give us the exact facts, it's just one possibility from only one source after all

this guys who wrote this books know the subject better then i, i am not a historian, so i had to honor the prevailing opinion

Also, Etzels Burg is a clearly fictional name, Tapiomart is not. And it's clearly of german origin, while what we modified form Tápiószentmárton fits in the other hunnic cities very well

please search for Tapiomart at google, the only two persons on earth, who are talking about this, are you!!!

 

[AbsintheRed]

You misunderstood me
Of course it's fictional too, both Cool and me said a couple of times that we came up with it by derivating Tápiószentmárton
I meant that if someone looks at the two names, he/she will be certain right away that Etzels Burg is not a hunnic name, but could easily accept Tapiomart/Tapiomarton as this fits in the city list very well...

Also Tápiószentmárton is the closest info what we have with the hunnic palace and everything, the other option for us would be to use the cities name in it's original form. Choose

 

[Manifold]

i give up,
more then tell you how the name of the capital in my language is, i couldnt do.
Thanks for the discourse.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I know that your goal is to call it Tapiomarton in english citylist and Etzels Burg in german one, but I really don't like the idea of using so different names for the same city.
And sry but for me Etzels Burg is exactly the same as calling it as Attila's Castle in english and Attila Vára in hungarian, etc...

 

[Nitram15]

Okay, text fixed. Maybe this sounds better:

Spoiler :

Ruga

A hunok uralkodója

A hunok uralkodója 425 - 434/435 Bleda és Attila nagybátyja volt. El&#337;ször még testvérével, Oktarral, együtt uralkodott a hunok felett. Testvére halála után, átvette a Balkáni hunok egyedüli irányítását. 432-ben a római hadvezér Aetius hadvezér hozzá menekült; Ruga segítségével megszerezte a Nyugat-római Birodalom irányítását. A segítségért cserébe átengedte a hunoknak Pannóniát és Valeriát és a Római Birodalom elengedte a hun zsoldosait, ami azért fontos, mert a Birodalom függött ezekt&#337;l a katonáktól. Ruga legfontosabb tette pedig az volt, hogy egyesítette a hunokat.
Halálának körülményei nem tisztázottak, találgatások szerint a trón várományosainak, unokaöccseinek - Bleda és Attila - is köze lehetett hozzá. Ruga után, másik testvére Mundzuk átvette a hatalmát, de mivel öt gyanúsították, hogy köze volt Ruga halálához, el&#369;zték öt és a fiai együtt lettek a hunok uralkodói.