aelf, if you want Machinery, research it for one turn and see if Augustus will give it to you for Philosophy then. Keep doing this until he is willing to trade. The only time when this is a bad thing to do is when the AI are research the tech you have to offer themselves. It is unlikely that Augustus is research Philosophy now.
The Immortal Challenge 1: Apocalypto
- Thread starter aelf
- Start date
Unconquered Sun
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 1,462
Huh? The game is 100% winnable with Space, competent economy management provided.
I think either cultural or space are possible. Domination/conquest are out, and I've never figured out diplomatic except as back-door domination. My concern about cultural is that you have to become completely helpless. Either HC or Shaka could ruin your game. And there's two folks you haven't met yet, who could be just as bad. I would shoot for the stars.
To do that, you need to trade your way back up. That means a deep beeline, probably to Democracy. Only HC even has Nationalism, so I think you can get ahead on that line, trading Constitution for things like Education and Printing Press. Plus, Democracy is just about the single most important tech for a cottage-based space race (for Emancipation to grow cottages; US is eventually nice for the production bonus, but not until much later).
Do not trade for junk like Archery! And Theology, for that matter. It's a dead end, providing only a civic that you're never going to use. I think you want Machinery (as a pre-req to Printing Press), and I agree with the suggestion to research it for a turn or two and then trade Philosophy for it. After you've done that, gift Philosophy to Shaka (or sell it for whatever cash he has) for the relations bonus. Then when you're ready to trade Nationalism or Constitution, he'll be willing.
You need to get cities down where you want them, before those spots disappear. Is there a good spot north of Lyons? I don't remember the more detailed maps. And take that barbarian city yourself. It's a good spot. Then cottages, cottages, cottages. Try to lay off the whip -- your happy caps are pretty high now, and you want to be working a lot of tiles. A lot of cottages, in particular. Courthouses, for example, may no longer be worth the population you have to burn to whip them. (Exception would be big French cities coming out of revolt into massive unhappiness. So you still get to whip some
.)
It won't be a cake-walk like the last space race, but I think this game is very winnable. You have a lot of land, which is the primary requirement for space races.
peace,
lilnev
To do that, you need to trade your way back up. That means a deep beeline, probably to Democracy. Only HC even has Nationalism, so I think you can get ahead on that line, trading Constitution for things like Education and Printing Press. Plus, Democracy is just about the single most important tech for a cottage-based space race (for Emancipation to grow cottages; US is eventually nice for the production bonus, but not until much later).
Do not trade for junk like Archery! And Theology, for that matter. It's a dead end, providing only a civic that you're never going to use. I think you want Machinery (as a pre-req to Printing Press), and I agree with the suggestion to research it for a turn or two and then trade Philosophy for it. After you've done that, gift Philosophy to Shaka (or sell it for whatever cash he has) for the relations bonus. Then when you're ready to trade Nationalism or Constitution, he'll be willing.
You need to get cities down where you want them, before those spots disappear. Is there a good spot north of Lyons? I don't remember the more detailed maps. And take that barbarian city yourself. It's a good spot. Then cottages, cottages, cottages. Try to lay off the whip -- your happy caps are pretty high now, and you want to be working a lot of tiles. A lot of cottages, in particular. Courthouses, for example, may no longer be worth the population you have to burn to whip them. (Exception would be big French cities coming out of revolt into massive unhappiness. So you still get to whip some
.)It won't be a cake-walk like the last space race, but I think this game is very winnable. You have a lot of land, which is the primary requirement for space races.
peace,
lilnev
zagnut
Monarch
I think any plans for a military victory should be shelved for this game. I would immediately move as many troops as possible to the north and capture the barbarian city.
Open your borders with Augustus as soon as practicable and see if you can adopt his religion.
Build 2 settlers to fill in the spaces on your west coast. Then just build up the economy.
I think the biggest quandary you have is what to do about techs. You are quite far behind and there doesn’t seem to be any tech you can reach for from your current position that will enable you to trade yourself to parity. The only techs you can reach with any speed are Printing Press, Constitution and Gunpowder. Each is two techs away from your current position and may give you the ability to trade with some of the other civs. I think I would go for Gunpowder and then Chemistry (after some hoped for trades) for the defensive capability provided by the Grenadier.
Sisiutil suggested you aim for a cultural victory. I can’t comment because I am not good at that particular victory condition. However, you may be able to achieve a spaceship victory if you can manage to stay out of a war. You might get lucky in this process and have Huayna and Augustus go to war against each other.
Open your borders with Augustus as soon as practicable and see if you can adopt his religion.
Build 2 settlers to fill in the spaces on your west coast. Then just build up the economy.
I think the biggest quandary you have is what to do about techs. You are quite far behind and there doesn’t seem to be any tech you can reach for from your current position that will enable you to trade yourself to parity. The only techs you can reach with any speed are Printing Press, Constitution and Gunpowder. Each is two techs away from your current position and may give you the ability to trade with some of the other civs. I think I would go for Gunpowder and then Chemistry (after some hoped for trades) for the defensive capability provided by the Grenadier.
Sisiutil suggested you aim for a cultural victory. I can’t comment because I am not good at that particular victory condition. However, you may be able to achieve a spaceship victory if you can manage to stay out of a war. You might get lucky in this process and have Huayna and Augustus go to war against each other.
Since I normally play at Monarch I can't really comment on the possibility of winning from this position. But there were a couple of things that occurred to me. When reading the update and the comments that followed I was surprised that nobody thinks that making a push to finish Louis off would be the best move in this situation. There seem to be a few advantages to pursuing his demise:
1. Paris is going to be a worthless city because of the loss of its FC tiles to French culture. And once Avignon gets another border expansion the Paris city tile will be within Avignon's cultural border meaning that frequent revolts are likely.
2. The "rejoin our homeland" unhappiness will limit the productivity of the other captured French cities.
3. Capturing Lyons would bring Christianity to your empire and give you the opportunity to convert and gain diplo points with Augustus. Lyons would also make a nice addition and it would give you the option of founding a city to the north to work a number of currently unused grassland tiles between Lyons and Orleans. If you're going to catch up peacefully you're going to need as much land as possible, right?
4. There is a possibility that Louis will try to squeeze more cities along your borders that may steal more tiles from your cities.
Of course if you do continue the war there is the possibility that Louis would become Augustus' vassal, which would pretty much end the game. Still I think you're going to have to take some chances to pull this one off. If you can kill Louis and then become Christian I think you'll have good enough relations with Augustus to avoid being attacked. You might want to match civics or make some favorable trade deals (for him) to improve the relationship.
However...
I had a look at the save, and your military has been really chewed up. You may have enough troops to take Avignon, but Lyons is probably going to require reinforcements. Almost all of your cities are currently doing civilian builds. Is it worth it to switch back to military builds at this point? With Louis having LBs is finishing him off really feasible?
As to the barb city, your ploy of closing borders with Augustus to prevent his force from getting to the barb city failed. The Roman knight/LB stack moved to neutral tiles along the west coast and from there they have a path to the barb city. Of course they may not be enough to take the city since the barbs apparently have LBs now (at least there's one sniffing around your northern borders). Is that barb city a high enough priority to cause you to end the war with Louis early? For that matter is it worth having closed borders with Augustus, your only possible trade partner for the foreseeable future?
If you do decide to end the war with Louis you might want to think about converting to no state religion. Is the building benefit of OR and the state religion happiness boost really worth negative relationship points with every other civ? It might open up some tech trade possibilities.
1. Paris is going to be a worthless city because of the loss of its FC tiles to French culture. And once Avignon gets another border expansion the Paris city tile will be within Avignon's cultural border meaning that frequent revolts are likely.
2. The "rejoin our homeland" unhappiness will limit the productivity of the other captured French cities.
3. Capturing Lyons would bring Christianity to your empire and give you the opportunity to convert and gain diplo points with Augustus. Lyons would also make a nice addition and it would give you the option of founding a city to the north to work a number of currently unused grassland tiles between Lyons and Orleans. If you're going to catch up peacefully you're going to need as much land as possible, right?
4. There is a possibility that Louis will try to squeeze more cities along your borders that may steal more tiles from your cities.
Of course if you do continue the war there is the possibility that Louis would become Augustus' vassal, which would pretty much end the game. Still I think you're going to have to take some chances to pull this one off. If you can kill Louis and then become Christian I think you'll have good enough relations with Augustus to avoid being attacked. You might want to match civics or make some favorable trade deals (for him) to improve the relationship.
However...
I had a look at the save, and your military has been really chewed up. You may have enough troops to take Avignon, but Lyons is probably going to require reinforcements. Almost all of your cities are currently doing civilian builds. Is it worth it to switch back to military builds at this point? With Louis having LBs is finishing him off really feasible?
As to the barb city, your ploy of closing borders with Augustus to prevent his force from getting to the barb city failed. The Roman knight/LB stack moved to neutral tiles along the west coast and from there they have a path to the barb city. Of course they may not be enough to take the city since the barbs apparently have LBs now (at least there's one sniffing around your northern borders). Is that barb city a high enough priority to cause you to end the war with Louis early? For that matter is it worth having closed borders with Augustus, your only possible trade partner for the foreseeable future?
If you do decide to end the war with Louis you might want to think about converting to no state religion. Is the building benefit of OR and the state religion happiness boost really worth negative relationship points with every other civ? It might open up some tech trade possibilities.
I'd go for space too, but a little more war may be useful, who knows?
I'd take machinery from Augustus. Just give him the money.
I'd take all I can from Louis, not including archery which is definitely not going to be of any use now (gunpowder is near).
I'd take machinery from Augustus. Just give him the money.
I'd take all I can from Louis, not including archery which is definitely not going to be of any use now (gunpowder is near).
aelf
Ashen One
Perhaps we could take a page from the first EMC. We were even further behind then but we still managed a victory.
I agree that we probably have enough land for a space or diplomatic victory (provided things go well). I've never tried cultural so I have no confidence in pulling it off. And I think not taking risks and leaving the French alone for now is worth the motherland unhappiness. Besides, if we go on with the war, we'd only be putting ourselves further behind. The only tangible benefit I can see is getting Christianity from Lyons, but by the time we take the city, it might well have spread naturally to one of our cities.
It didn't quite fail. It delayed him enough for the barbs to get longbows. I think that means we have time to get there and take the city for ourselves. We all know the AI is unable to conduct an effective siege against longbows, right?
This is a good suggestion. I'll assess the situation and see how feasible this option is in the immediate future.
I agree that we probably have enough land for a space or diplomatic victory (provided things go well). I've never tried cultural so I have no confidence in pulling it off. And I think not taking risks and leaving the French alone for now is worth the motherland unhappiness. Besides, if we go on with the war, we'd only be putting ourselves further behind. The only tangible benefit I can see is getting Christianity from Lyons, but by the time we take the city, it might well have spread naturally to one of our cities.
It didn't quite fail. It delayed him enough for the barbs to get longbows. I think that means we have time to get there and take the city for ourselves. We all know the AI is unable to conduct an effective siege against longbows, right?
Validator said:
This is a good suggestion. I'll assess the situation and see how feasible this option is in the immediate future.
aelf
Ashen One
I read up on EMC1 again and realised something: We should beeline for Constitution and Democracy indeed. That was the game winner and we can do so even earlier now. Of course, we'd have to avoid getting declared on. And we are not Financial and don't own the whole continent, so the effect might not be that amazing. Good thing we aren't quite as far behind (the AIs are a lot meaner on 2.08 and Immortal, though).
Just a recap of the effect of getting the cottage civics and cottaging up in that game:
Good idea.
As I've mentioned, I agree with this approach.
Brilliant! Now that's diplomacy
The last game was cakewalk?? Well, not until the final round or two!
Just a recap of the effect of getting the cottage civics and cottaging up in that game:
Good idea.
As I've mentioned, I agree with this approach.
Brilliant! Now that's diplomacy
The last game was cakewalk?? Well, not until the final round or two!
carl corey
Deity
Didn't you have the whole continent to yourself in that one? That counts a lot. And I really hope you can avoid being declared on, but with the huge numbers of troops the AI builds now you won't be safe unless you sign a defensive pact with a very powerful civ. It's really crazy. I mean, in one game I built and built and built troops and couldn't catch up with the AI even though I had the highest production. I still co-existed with lots of civs on my continent, but I won't make that mistake again. 
Dirk1302
Deity
I'd take out the french now. It's just more land and you can convert to christianity afterwards. You don't have to worry then about Augustus (who is rather peaceful anyway).
As an alternative to the Democracy beeline i suggest a beeline to Steel. Generally it takes the Ai some time to get this tech so you can trade it. An additional advantage is that depending on circumstances you can take AC out quickly. This might happen if AC goes for constitution and rifling. In this case Grens/cannons might get him down quickly. If this happens you have to be ready at the moment you get Steel with Globe theater and trebs that you can upgrade to cannons a great merchant would help here.
I think you might be to far behind to win a space race with the land you've got now (not sure though). Getting control of the whole continent at a time techs like Assembly line and Electricity are being researched might turn things around.
As an alternative to the Democracy beeline i suggest a beeline to Steel. Generally it takes the Ai some time to get this tech so you can trade it. An additional advantage is that depending on circumstances you can take AC out quickly. This might happen if AC goes for constitution and rifling. In this case Grens/cannons might get him down quickly. If this happens you have to be ready at the moment you get Steel with Globe theater and trebs that you can upgrade to cannons a great merchant would help here.
I think you might be to far behind to win a space race with the land you've got now (not sure though). Getting control of the whole continent at a time techs like Assembly line and Electricity are being researched might turn things around.
aelf
Ashen One
Just finished playing the next round. Things are getting better for us, but ironically I'm even less optimistic now. Although we have gained some ground, the overall picture, now that I can see it, is just discouraging. We need an economic miracle like in EMC1, but I'm not sure we have the land to pull if off. Going all out for continental domination within this round or the next, though, would be purely delusional.
I will post the update soon. Probably tomorrow.
I will post the update soon. Probably tomorrow.
carl corey
Deity
"When in doubt, nuke someone"?! Can't wait to see how things worked out. I wonder why is continental domination impossible. In my experience the first steps of a war are the most important ones. Take out a few cities in the first turn and you usually do enough damage to make matters a little more even.
aelf
Ashen One
You want to try macemen vs. cavalry? You guys gleefully and consistently advocate war, but what do you imagine this to be? If I could I would have. With an economy in shambles and a foreign continent running away, you guys want to fight a titanic war against a wealthier and more advanced opponent? Even if we eventually win, how long would it take? And what state would we be in at the end of it?
PS: Don't mind the rant. It's the angsty mood
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I'm with angst-man here. aelf has enough land at his disposal to support several different victory conditions. Trying to take on renaissance units with medieval ones is a non-starter. I advocate going a largely peaceful route for the rest of the game, especially geared towards keeping Augustus happy, which isn't too hard, in my experience.
Let me add that there is no dishonour in a loss, though I'm not assuming that will be the outcome. I find I learn more from games where the end is very much in doubt.
aelf has enough land at his disposal to support several different victory conditions. Trying to take on renaissance units with medieval ones is a non-starter. I advocate going a largely peaceful route for the rest of the game, especially geared towards keeping Augustus happy, which isn't too hard, in my experience. Let me add that there is no dishonour in a loss, though I'm not assuming that will be the outcome. I find I learn more from games where the end is very much in doubt.
aelf
Ashen One
You forgot to ask: Enough compared to whom?
Sisiutil said:
Yup. No North Korea philosophy here.
Sisiutil said:
Let me just be candid and say that diplomatic is probably the most viable option, as in EMC1.
Sisiutil said:
Indeed there isn't. But after investing so much effort in everything, I'd like to see things work out
carl corey
Deity
Easy there, buddy. Didn't know what the real situation was. You of course want something at least approaching tech parity to be able to attack. Post the update, we'll talk then.
Didn't know what the real situation was. You of course want something at least approaching tech parity to be able to attack. Post the update, we'll talk then.
aelf
Ashen One
I'm still wondering how it became like this. Not lightbulbing is the only answer that I can think of. If we had focused on getting GS's and lightbulbing with them, I'm sure it wouldn't be so bad. It would also be pretty generic, though.
I'll post the update later.
I'll post the update later.
What are relations like with Shaka? My experence is that he will rarely even trade at Cautious. I could be wrong but I wouldn't bank on Shaka being a good trade partner.
