The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland

[UncleJJ]

I'm quite Suprised you haven't switch Civics to Pacifism once your discovered Philosophy, You know SE + Philosophical + Pacifism = GP Spaming, no offense becuase it appears liek a newbie mistake LOL or were you waiting to get a couple temples up to assign a couple of Priest for Prophets before Switch to Pacifism???

It is no newbie mistake. The main reason he should not switch to Pacifism yet is that it requires the state religion to be effective. Unfortunately Berlin is the main city that Pacifism could benefit (including the GL) does not have Buddhism or any religion. We might get lucky and it will spread naturally to Berlin, or we might get the less useful Taoism for free.

Notice I suggested above that he change the build order in Madrid to be one or even both monastries. He could then spam missionaries of both religions to any cities that can make use of them

 

[kniteowl]

It is no newbie mistake. The main reason he should not switch to Pacifism yet is that it requires the state religion to be effective. Unfortunately Berlin is the main city that Pacifism could benefit (including the GL) does not have Buddhism or any religion. We might get lucky and it will spread naturally to Berlin, or we might get the less useful Taoism for free.

Notice I suggested above that he change the build order in Madrid to be one or even both monastries. He could then spam missionaries of both religions to any cities that can make use of them

Oh my bad, I really need to check the save game before posting lol... btw Washington already has CS, he looks like the one to run away in research, I think we should Vassalize Isabella after conquering most of her significant Cities and Attack Washing before he reaches Gunpowder type units once we get our own Middle age units, He's only 2 techs away from Maces.

 

[ratrangerm]

Only thing I would say is I would be leery of trading anything to Washington. He's the biggest threat on your continent in the Liberalism race (although who knows what position the civs elsewhere are in... there's a chance one of them is in the hunt). Huayna makes the most sense for trading Feudalism if you think you can get Izzy to become your vassal.

By all means, when you take Izzy's cities, separate her as much as you can. Just keep an eye on things to make sure he doesn't become Washington's vassal, which is a possibility.

Also, see if you can coax at least one tech from Izzy when you finally decide it's time to make peace or make her your vassal.

 

[Yeekim]

Trading of resources good is! Trading of resources buddy-buddy bonus gives!
Howgh!

 

[cabert]

Why? Marble and prechopping is hard to beat.

Hard to beat but not unbeatable.
GE and immortal bonus is even harder to beat .
But that's me being paranoid .

Why so paranoid about WFYABTA? Yes, it's there, but all these techs add up to more than 10 turns of research. If trading for them puts us closer to our short-term goals, I don't see why not. We're not playing hard catch up like the last time. There is a time to trade.

It's not the fact that you traded that makes me nervous.
It's what you traded for.

About trades, I'd try to sue for peace, if Isa is willing to give you theology (not likely, but who knows).
This way you could trade for currency and feudalism without giving away philo .

 

[AnitaGaribaldi]

You should get the city with Oracle from Isabela before suing for peace. Use the taoist missionary to spread Taoism, then build the two temples and run Pacifism.
I cannot open the save, but if you have hired two scientists in Berlin:
Berlin (no religion) = (8 + 6) * 2 = 28 gpp/turn
Oracle city (religion) = (2+6) * 3 = 24 gpp/turn

You should build first the shrine from the religion that is not your state religion, you don't want it to spread to Berlin before you get the two Great Prophets.

 

[carl corey]

I'd say you're better off building only the Buddhist shrine. Remember that you'll have to invest quite a few hammers to get taoism spread enough to get something in return. Plus, the second prophet means one less scientist. I really don't think it's worth it.

 

[Tomek]

Any thoughts on victory condition?
Is cultural an option?

Edit: Now looked at the save. Looks like most of religions are overseas which makes cultural debatable. Wonder who's been founding them. Mansa? Gandhi?
Economy is in poor shape; ok in short term but actually +2gold at 0% research suggests that economy may need sorting before expanding too wildly so take Salamanca for iron and then go for peace. Its ok while you've got plunder to subsidise the economy but that won't last for ever.

First I'd like to say that with a great pleasure I watched the example of bold strategy in Immortal No.1 Challenge. Now if you please I'll stop be silent to add few words.

I'm really in favour of cultural victory in this game, but if only it will be possible to marginalize Brennus. He is always pain in the ass and totally inpredictible for me. If we are going to win by culture strong Brennus will be a serious military threat for us.

What are the alternatives? With mastering of science output IMO Space victory only (as previously). What are your ideas?

 

[aelf]

Some good ideas here. Keep them coming

I don't suppose you have a savegame just before you declared war on Izzy do you? You could replay it yourself or post for me and any others to enjoy. It would be a fascinating what - if to replay for a few turns. Obviously you have already made the decision and we are commited, I just find alternative histories interesting.

If you really want a save just before the war declaration, I do have an autosave on the very turn I declared war. I've moved the stack one step to recreate the actual conditions. It's attached below.

However, delaying war would imply a totally different approach to the last round, which probably requires you to play from 675BC. I just tried this alternative route and found that we would have been quite screwed. Isabella had longbows for several turns already when I declared war in 300AD. Capturing Madrid required the effort of every single unit we had in the stack (one swordsman died to a longbow attack while we were bombarding the city) and the sacrifice of all but one catapult (which withdrew). I stopped some turns beyond the 325AD endpoint of the actual game, when it was clear that we could not hold Madrid due to incessant desperate longbow attacks on the city, but I don't consider that a spoiler since things went a completely different way almost from the beginning. The good things were we got CS earlier (before we even declared war) and were in a position to lightbulb both Paper and Education early.

Any thoughts on victory condition?
Is cultural an option?

What are the alternatives? With mastering of science output IMO Space victory only (as previously). What are your ideas?

Cultural? That would negate both the UU and the UB of Germany!

I'm kind of bored of space race, but I'm usually too lazy to go for domination. We'll have to see how it goes, I guess.

Anyway, I gather the general opinion so far is that a second shrine isn't all that it seems to be, and I agree. I suppose it would be good if we decide to go for space victory but marginal if we go for domination.

 

[Solver]

One more vote here for taking one Shrine only. An extra Great Scientist for a lightbulb will probably be worth more to you. Buddhism can be expected to spread pretty rapidly by itself, plus your Missionaries, but for Taoism to spread, you'd have to seriously invest in it. If you really want Domination, better spend the hammers on more units. Of course, if you go for a Cultural victory, then you'll want both shrines. That'd be fun .

 

[aelf]

Anyway, now that I've found out for myself what would have been the result of going for Literature first, my mind is at rest. We're on the right track, guys

Economy is in poor shape; ok in short term but actually +2gold at 0% research suggests that economy may need sorting before expanding too wildly so take Salamanca for iron and then go for peace. Its ok while you've got plunder to subsidise the economy but that won't last for ever.

I'm not too worried about ruining the economy at the moment, especially since most of what we're paying are unit costs (which equals the sum of city and civic upkeep costs). We have a few (gasp!) cottages, as well as natural sources of commerce. Financially, things should stabilise once we get some courthouses up. Nevertheless, you do have a point, and we should probably not go on an unthinking conquering spree. This brings me to the point below.

Santiago kind of sucks. You could resettle it 1W, or you could add a city 3W to fill in the good tiles to its west, which would avoid the diplomatic penalty if you want to vassalize Isabella.

I agree. However, don't forget that there's a barb city between Santiago and Salamanca. If we're going for these two Spanish cities, we would effectively have to take 3 cities. Are we going to keep all of them and pay for their upkeep? I don't think we should. I think it would better to raze Santiago and the barb city and settle a city 2W of where Santiago is, which would be able to work the corn on the southern coast. Here's a rudimentary dotmap showing the location of the barb city (black dot), the proposed city (blue dot) and the BFCs of Salamanca and the proposed city:

 

[Cephalophore]

Greatings and Felicitations Aelf

First off, let me be the one-millionth person to congratulate you on your excellent ECM/ICM's and UU guide. I've read them all and had a blast. As a lowly noble player, I won't waste space with suggestions on the current game. I will however say that in this one I'm pulling for the A.I.'s just a little bit. Now that you have the GL in your pocket and the dreaded blood bath with the Spainish turned into a route, I'm wondering if there will be any "challange" left in this IMC.

I realize on Immortal the other continent will be tough even if it's small, I just doubt it will be a powerhouse. I suppose I shouldn't underestimate the remaining foes on your continent, but right now their positions don't seem that menacing. I hope I'm not jinxing you here but you said yourself taking out the Spainish could win the game.

I guess I'm complaining because in addition to being jealous of your skills and good fortune, I was really looking forward to seeing the panzers in some desperate, dramatic, game-breaking action. I have yet to get my money's worth out of this unit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no player hater. Ideally, I would like to see you win one turn away from losing, fending off a huge army of choppers and marines, maybe with a little nuke action thrown in. At any rate, here's hoping you keep going despite the busy schedule your always complaining about.

Oh and btw, if you get Erwin Rommel as a GG, you know what you have to do.

 

[UncleJJ]

If you really want a save just before the war declaration, I do have an autosave on the very turn I declared war. I've moved the stack one step to recreate the actual conditions. It's attached below.

However, delaying war would imply a totally different approach to the last round, which probably requires you to play from 675BC. I just tried this alternative route and found that we would have been quite screwed. Isabella had longbows for several turns already when I declared war in 300AD. Capturing Madrid required the effort of every single unit we had in the stack (one swordsman died to a longbow attack while we were bombarding the city) and the sacrifice of all but one catapult (which withdrew). I stopped some turns beyond the 325AD endpoint of the actual game, when it was clear that we could not hold Madrid due to incessant desperate longbow attacks on the city, but I don't consider that a spoiler since things went a completely different way almost from the beginning. The good things were we got CS earlier (before we even declared war) and were in a position to lightbulb both Paper and Education early.

Thanks for the savegame and for re-playing this What-if for me. My mind is now at rest It seems that you made the right decison and delaying the attack on Izzy for the capture of a working shrine was never a practical proposition at Immortal level. I've downloaded the savegame but won't have time to replay it myself for a couple of days at least (work and family commitments). I take your point about having a different approach if we were serious about this ploy and planning the attack much earlier.

You suggest that we should really replay from the 675BC savegame and prepare for the war differently. I agree, and would suggest that in any game you have Izzy as a close neighbour you could start the planning as soon as you see she gets the Oracle or Stonehenge if she has founded an early religion. I've pulled this ploy off twice, at lower difficulties, and capturing a working shrine early in the game was the sound basis of two enjoyable domination games based partly around religions. Having a double shrine city would have been rediculous.

Because it is a capital it makes the holy city more valuable as a production base and allows you to build the market, grocer and bank and then Wall Street much quicker than if it was some fishing village. In my games Madrid was the natural place for Iron Works and ran priests boosted by Angkor Wat and became a major production centre.

Missionaries and Monastries: I've found in my games that having at least one monastry (somewhere in the empire) for each religion to be valuable. In the late game when running Free Speech and Free Religion, two civics I know you like , sending a missionary to a newly conquered city is very useful as it adds 1 happiness and 2 culture. It can be done before the city comes out of revolt and is worthwhile up to about 4 different religions before the chance of failure becomes too high. The number of missionaries you need depends on how many religions the city had beforehand. With say +4 happiness and 8 culture per turn from 4 religions it lets you keep more pop in the city and expands the border fast enough for you to concentrate on other build priorities. It provides a good kickstart to a newly acquired city. Obviously if you have the shrines for these religions the tactic is self financing as well as making the captured city productive much quicker.

 

[ungy]

Aelf-
why do want the NE now? You have a golden (and likely fleeting) opportunity to take Iz down quick pre LB. I'd build nothing but units and maybe whip CH in captured cities. You have a lot of work to do still militarily and sooner is MUCH better than later.

Also I don't see a healer in the army, and looks like a bunch of units that have not fought a battle have CR promos???

Obviously you need to decide where you're headed long term to know how important relations and WFTYBA are. If the plan (which I think makes sense) is to try and overrun the continent, then they don't matter so much. If the plan is to put up a couple of shrines and play peaceful space then you should not have traded for some of the small techs.

 

[aelf]

Ah, well. The shrine was a dream

Lesson learnt: waiting is a bad choice on Immortal.

Also I don't see a healer in the army, and looks like a bunch of units that have not fought a battle have CR promos???

I usually wait to get a CR III Medic, but I see your point. I'm not accustomed to having so many spare units. Usually I need every unit in the stack to be geared for battle, even that one spearman, since he might have to protect the stack. We were more successful than I thought we'd be But, anyway, I think most of our units have seen action. It's just that some of them only got 1xp fighting battles with very good odds, so they're still stuck at CR1.

 

[EEE_BOY]

hi, everyone.first thanks ealf for providing us such enormous educational resourse which helps me level up alot. i am a frequently monachy player and jump to empire level recently. i became interested in SE and just played an off-line game using Frederick in worlords 2.08 which is qiute similar to the start point of aelf's game. 4 rivals in one continent, close neighbour(zulu) has no copper. capital is rich in food and has marble (but productive, i make it ironwork and NE city). i delayed BW when horses near by and research archery for city defence. i rush Chariots in two citys and take four cities from zulu (one has holy himdu) but i run out of Chariot to capture his capital so i make peace after that. the combat is quite short , i even didn't get the first great general. personally i think Chariot are better for an early war because they are quick and cheaper. but if zulu did have copper, i would be dead to his imps.( he did get iron after the war ended.)
i found two cities to acquire luxury resources and take one barb city. with total 9 cities i change to builder type. the economy is crushed at this point.i lightbulb philosophy and do some tech exchage. i also lightbulb to Liberalism and get Nationalism then beeline to Constitution for rep and Democracy for SoL. i buy copper with a high price to get SoL up. things goes well at this point.
i decide to beeline to Assembly Line for UB and then Industrialism for UU. but the tech rate is rather low at this point without biology and especially low after SM. about 10-15 turns for an expansive tech like AL. I usually run CE at this point and the tech rate would be rocketed to sky with Emancipation and Free Speech. instead i run Caste System, epresentation,Bureaucracy,Pacifism and Mercantilism. i have three Monasteries and Academy in capital and super science city. the tech rate is still very low. i didn't expand after the early war and build only defensive units in my sole military city. but i will expand if i get my UU quickly.
i haven't finish my game. and i want to see how aelf manage to get tech up quickly when beeline to AL but delaying biology and when SM obsolete the GL. maybe other tech preference is more suited.

 

[aelf]

I think a post-Biology SE with SoL and running Mercantilism and Representation should be quite powerful. By then you would be in a hybrid economy anyway. I believe Representation specialists were contributed quite significantly in the last game thanks to SoL and Mercantilism, even though we were running a CE.

Ideally, I would like to see you win one turn away from losing, fending off a huge army of choppers and marines, maybe with a little nuke action thrown in. At any rate, here's hoping you keep going despite the busy schedule your always complaining about.

Well, this is Immortal after all. You never know what's going to happen.

By the way, on the subject of my schedule, I'm afraid I'll be out of town for about 4-5 days, guys. I'd be lucky if I can even get internet access during this time, so just be patient for the moment, alright?

 

[Harbourboy]

Don't you have a clone that you can send in to play your turns for you. Really, you're not trying hard enough

Anyway, I'd still like to see how you close this out from here, even if you are in a strong position, because that is part of the game I struggle with. So much is made of the early game strategies that I think I have a good idea about most of them, but I still get into trouble in the mid to last game trying to get that actual victory. It only takes one civ to be better than you to lose, no matter what mincemeat you have made of all the rest.

 

[zagnut]

From this point in the game, I would suggest that you secure your southern flank by eliminating Santiago. This will also enable you to have easier access to the rest of the continent in the future. The city is poorly placed and I agree that you should relocate it to the west. In order to accomplish this you will need to build a Settler. May I suggest that you postpone the National Epic in Berlin and switch to a settler, who will be ready when Santiago is destroyed.

Madrid will be out of unrest in two turns and it should turn into a valuable city quickly. The unrest will be over before you are in a position to attack Santiago.

Once Santiago is re-built you can stop your expansion for awhile. However, there are 3 weak Spanish cities that should be razed - Salamanca to the south and Valencia and Murcia to the north. This will secure your flanks. If you want to settle any of those areas in the future you should be able to do so without much difficulty. Your resting army can also practice its attack strategies on the barb city.

Once those 3 cities have been razed, I would then try to turn Isabella into my vassal. Then regroup and plan for the next stage.

With regard to the Great General, it doesn’t appear that you will need it to vanquish Isabella. Therefore, I would suggest that you use it for a long term purpose. On the next round of conquest it would be nice to have a Medic unit. I would vote to hold onto him until Toledo stops revolting and you can get access to the horses.

 

[aelf]

However, there are 3 weak Spanish cities that should be razed - Salamanca to the south and Valencia and Murcia to the north. This will secure your flanks. If you want to settle any of those areas in the future you should be able to do so without much difficulty. Your resting army can also practice its attack strategies on the barb city.

But Salamanca claims both the iron and pigs, making it a decent coastal production city. We can use it as a naval yard later on.

We'd probably raze Santiago, the barb city and Valencia (only guarded by a chariot).

Anyway, happily, my trip has been cut by a day, so I am free to play and post the update today.